nairi Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 2 Vandaag, an "intellectual" news program in Holland aired a documentary on the Armenian genocide today. I just now watched the re-run. Although it started promising, everything was ruined when the voice-over said: "According to Armenians there was a genocide, but according to Turks there wasn't." I felt that the interviewer could have easily cornered the Turkish ambassador had he known just a little bit more about the genocide and its academic recognition. They also showed a little bit of Aratat (note the spelling: this is how it was pronounced and spelled in the documentary), the bit where the women are made to dance naked while an officer pours gasoline over them. This was also the first bit of Ararat that I saw. I still haven't seen the movie. Other than that the reporter claimed that Holland denies the genocide when this is not true. At least not officially. They neither deny it officially nor do they recognize it officially. In short, a very disappointing documentary. They could have done so much more with the material that they had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 They also showed a little bit of Aratat (note the spelling: this is how it was pronounced and spelled in the documentary), the bit where the women are made to dance naked while an officer pours gasoline over them. This was also the first bit of Ararat that I saw. I still haven't seen the movie. Hi Nairi Can you remember what the voice-over said to interpetet that scene to the viewers? Did the voice-over imply that it was a real event or a fictional event? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Hi Steve, unfortunately my VCR was broken so I wasn't able to tape it. However, if I remember correctly, the scene was shown to support the evidence of the Armenian genocide. I know, it was a very weak "argument". They showed quite a few photos we've all seen as well, but I didn't find these as shocking as they had warned they would be. I've seen much more shocking pictures. I guess I forgot to mention that the two Armenians who were interviewed were a complete embarrassment to mankind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 What do you expect from the spineless Dutch? They can never take sides with 500.000 scum breeding in their necks, they don't have the guts to do it. The only program that really condemned the genocide in Holland was the documentary that guy from the ChristenUnie made of his travels to Armenia. The only decent thing that party ever did. I guess I forgot to mention that the two Armenians who were interviewed were a complete embarrassment to mankind. A lot of Armenians in Holland are, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Of course we know that that scene was a dramatization of Siamanto's "Pare@" which is a depiction of a German woman's eyewitness account. Does anyone know who and what he was? Be aware that the said poem was written before the "Big G". Siamanto(Adom Yarjanian)- 1878-1915 The Dance Her blue eyes, drowned in tears, the German witness to the horrors tried to describe the ashfields where the Armenian life had died: "This untellable thing I'm trying to say I saw with my pitiless human eyes from the hellish window of my safe house. While I gnashed my teeth in terror and frustration my eyes stayed open and pitiless. I saw a garden city change into ash heaps. Corpses piled to the tops of trees. And from the waters, from the springs, from the brooks and from the roads, the roar of your blood. It is the voice of that blood that still speaks in my heart. Don't be disgusted, but I have to tell this story so that people understand the crimes men do to men. Let all the hearts of the world hear. That morning with death's shadows was a Sunday, the first useless Sunday to rise over those bodies. I had been in my room all night, tending, from evening until morning, a girl I knew stabbed by knives. I bent over her agony wetting her death with my tears. Suddenly I heard from a distance a black mob of men, whipping, leading twenty girls. Twenty young women, pushed into my vineyard while the men sang lewd songs 'When we beat the drum, you dance!' And their whips began to crack ferociously against the flesh of the Armenian women who longed for death. Twenty of them, hand in hand, began their dance. Tears flowed from their eyes, as if from wounds. And I envied the dying girl who could not see, but who cursed with her harsh breathing, the universe, poor beautiful Armenian girl giving wings to her dove white soul, while I shook my fists in vain against the mob below. 'You must dance, faithless heathen beauties. Dance, with open breasts, to death, smiling at us without complaints! Fatigue is not for you. Nor modesty. All the way to death, dance, with lust, with lewdness. Our eyes are thirsty for your forms and for your deaths. Twenty handsome girls fell to the ground exhausted. Stand up' the roar thundered behind the snakelike whirling swords. Someone brought a bucket then, of kerosene. Oh, human justice I spit at your forehead. Then they doused those twenty brides, shouting 'You must dance. And here's a fragrance Arabia does not have.' And with a torch, set on fire the naked flesh. The charred corpses rolled toward death through the dancing. From my fright I shuttered the window as if against a hurricane. And asked the dead girl in the room, 'How shall I dig out these eyes of mine. How?'" (1909) (translated by Diana Der Hovanessian & Marzbed Margossian) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Hi Steve, unfortunately my VCR was broken so I wasn't able to tape it. However, if I remember correctly, the scene was shown to support the evidence of the Armenian genocide. I know, it was a very weak "argument". They showed quite a few photos we've all seen as well, but I didn't find these as shocking as they had warned they would be. I've seen much more shocking pictures. I guess I forgot to mention that the two Armenians who were interviewed were a complete embarrassment to mankind. Thanks Nairi. As well as a weak argument, it is weak evidence as well, since the scene is actually a fictional event, based on the content of a poem from 1909. (Though Egoyan and others have made it out to be an eyewitness account of a real event from 1915). I was interested because I've been writing a piece on Arsile Gorky, and that scene is used by Egoyan to impose a meaning onto one of Gorky's paintings that is not there in reality. It would be nice to trace when and where such myths originate from. There is a "performance artist" whose name I can't exactly recall right now (Diamanta something) whose has presented the poem as a real event from 1915, and her use of it seems to predate Ararat, but probably she got the idea from somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Of course we know that that scene was a dramatization of Siamanto's "Pare@" which is a depiction of a German woman's eyewitness account. Does anyone know who and what he was? Be aware that the said poem was written before the "Big G". I'd question that "of course we know". It certainly is not a real eyewitness account (Siamanto was in Constantinople when he wrote it, and never visited Adana), and I also question that it is even an account of a real event. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Thanks Arpa. Didn't you post that poem somewhere else on this forum already? Steve, good luck. Gurgenchik, in case you're interested, here's a radio docu from yesterday: http://www.eo.nl/portals/programs/nieuws.j...program=4609517 Click on the link on the right side called "Erkenning Genocide". You need real player. I hope it still works. I downloaded it last night and can still listen to it. As for the number of Turks in Holland, make that max 350,000 By the way, the ChristenUnie is still trying to introduce the Armenian genocide in parliamentary debates (kamerdebatten), mainly through Huizinga. As you probably know Leen van Dijke didn't get enough votes to stay in the party. He'll be in Assen tomorrow, in case you want to shake hands with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Thanks Arpa. Didn't you post that poem somewhere else on this forum already? I think it might have been me I posted links to two versions of it. But I can't find the post now (I've just been looking). I'm not sure if the one Arpa has posted was one of the two versions. But another was by Balakian, who is a pal of Egoyan. Balakian's translation differed substantially from the other, earlier translation - sections were omitted or altered in their meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Here is the Balakian translation. As a poem, it is far inferior to the version Arpa posted. An analysis of the actual differences might be useful. The Dance In a field of cinders where Armenians were still dying, A German woman, trying not to cry told me the horror she witnessed: "This incomprehensible thing I’m telling you about, I saw with my own eyes. From my window of hell I clenched my teeth and watched with pitiless eyes: the town of Barez turned into a heap of ashes. Corpses piled as high as trees. From the waters, from the springs, from the streams and the road, the stubborn murmur of your blood still revenges my ear. Don’t be afraid. I must tell you what I saw, so people will understand the crimes men do to men. For two days, by the road to the graveyard… Let the hearts of the whole world understand. It was Sunday morning, the first useless Sunday dawning on the corpses. From dusk to dawn in my room, with a stabbed woman, my tears wetting her death. Suddenly I heard from afar a dark crowd standing in a vineyard lashing twenty brides and singing dirty songs. Leaving the half-dead girl on the straw mattress, I went to the balcony on my window and the crowd seemed to thicken like a forest, An animal of a man shouted, “you must dance, dance when our drum beats.” With fury whips cracked on the flesh of these women. Hand in hand the brides began their circle dance. Now, I envied my wounded neighbor because with a calm snore she cursed the universe and gave her soul up to the stars… In vain, I shook my fists at the crowd. 'Dance,’ they raved, ‘dance till you die, infidel beauties. With your flapping tits, dance! Smile and don’t complain. You’re abandoned now, you’re naked slaves so dance like a bunch of ***in’ sluts. We’re hot for you all.’ Twenty graceful brides collapsed. ‘Get up,’ the crowds roared, brandishing their swords. Then someone brought a jug of kerosene. Human justice, I spit in your face. The brides were anointed. 'Dance,' they thundered— here’s a fragrance you can’t get in Arabia.’ Then with a torch, they set the naked brides on fire. And the charred corpses rolled and tumbled to their deaths… Like a storm I slammed the shutters of my windows, and went over to the dead girl and asked: ‘How can I dig out my eyes, how can I dig, tell me?” Credit: From The Dance by Siamento. Translated by Peter Balakian and Nevart Yaghlian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 This is the best of the three translations: The Dance Translated from the Armenian by Shant Norashkharian. And as her tears drowned in her blue eyes, On a field of ash where Armenian life was still dying, This is what the witness of our horror, the German woman narrated: "This story which I tell you and which cannot be told, I saw with my cruel human eyes, From the window of my safe house which looked on hell, Crushing my teeth from my terrible rage... With my cruelly human eyes I saw . It was in Garden city, which was turned to a pile of ashes. The corpses were piled high to the top of the trees, And from the waters, from the fountains, from the streams, from the roads, The rebellious murmur of your blood... Still speaks now its vengeance into my ears... O, don't be shocked when I tell you this story which cannot be told... Let men understand the crime of man against man, Under the sun of two days, on the road to the cemetery The evil of man against man, Let all the hearts of the world know... That morning in death's shadow was a Sunday, The first and helpless Sunday which rose over the corpses, When inside my room, from evening to dawn, Bending over the agony of a girl slashed with a sword, I was wetting her death with my tears... Suddenly from afar a black, beastly mob Brutally whipping the twenty brides who were with them, Stood in a vineyard singing songs of debauchery. Leaving the poor dying girl on her mattress, I approached the balcony of my window which looked on hell... In the vineyard the black mob became a forest. A savage roared to the brides: "You must dance, You must dance when our drum sounds." And the whips started wildly cracking on the bodies Of the Armenian women who were missing death... Twenty brides, hand in hand, started their round dance... The tears flowed from their eyes like wounds, Ah, how much I envied my wounded neighbor, Because I heard, that with a peaceful moan, Cursing the universe, the poor beautiful Armenian girl, To her young dove spirit gave wings toward the stars... In vain I moved my fists against the mob. "You must dance", roared the furious crowd, "You must dance until your death, lustfully and lasciviously, Our eyes are thirsty for your movements and your death..." The twenty beautiful brides fell to the ground exhausted... "Stand up", they shrieked, waving their naked swords like snakes... Then someone brought to the mob a barrel of oil... O, human justice, let me spit at your forehead...! They anointed the twenty brides hastily with that liquid... "You must dance", they roared, "here is a perfume for you which even Arabia does not have..." Then they ignited the naked bodies of the brides with a torch, And the charcoaled corpses rolled from dance to death... In my terror I closed the shutters of my window like a storm, And approaching my lonely dead girl I asked: "How can I dig my eyes out, how can I dig them out, tell me...?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 This is the best of the three translations: How do you know? Sorry for confusing you with Arpa, but thanks for posting the translations! Maybe someone has the time to post the original as well? Would be nice.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Ooh looky here, the documentary is on the net, but be quick! I'm not sure how long it'll still be on. It's in Dutch though, except for the interview with the Turkish ambassador: it's in English! Here;s the link: http://www.2vandaag.nl/index.php?module=PX...2&date=20040422 Click on the picture of "Armeense Genocide herdacht" (Armenian Genocide remembered). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 About Aratat, he said that it was one of the few movies that depict how after the fall of the Ottoman Empire hundreds of thousands of Armenians were persecuted and killed in a horrible way by the Turks; a massacre in which it is estimated that 1.5 million Armenians perished. As for the title, I would translate that as "Armenian Genocide commemorated". Sorry for the mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 I just watched the clip. This was the first time I heard Dutch spoken. Interesting. As inadequate the clip may have been it is enough that the subject was aired at all. An improvement however one looks at it. I think the Dutch are intelligent enough to see that the Turk had nothing to say except to hide behind words and semantics. A novel approach, now that every other ploy has failed, like siding with the enemy etc. even ASALA accusations the only game in town (of Istanbul) seems to "G" or not to ". Aagatha Christie may have said it best , no matter how one may interprets "Murder So Foul" is murder and it is foul. They can play with words all they want, we have gone beyond words. THe mere fact the Turk did participate is he knows "actions (and legislative acts)speak louder than words". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 (edited) A novel approach, now that every other ploy has failed, like siding with the enemy etc. even ASALA accusations the only game in town (of Istanbul) seems to "G" or not to ". Aagatha Christie may have said it best , no matter how one may interprets "Murder So Foul" is murder and it is foul. They can play with words all they want, we have gone beyond words. THe mere fact the Turk did participate is he knows "actions (and legislative acts)speak louder than words". Just goes to show that Turks are still wondering what came first the chicken or the egg? The ASALA is a backlash of what they did to Armenians. In fact I think most of the ASALA members were grand children of victims. The Turks should have expected it and for them to wonder why they were targets is really ludicris. I honestly believe that maybe the ASALA would not have existed in the first place if they solved the problem a long time ago, but again try to explain to the Turk what came first the chicken or the egg. Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 (edited) Just goes to show that Turks are still wondering what came first the chicken or the egg? The one thing you don't do is ask the Turk which came first. They will behead the chicken and deny the egg ever existed. That's because they are the biggest chicken of them all, aka turkey. Gobble, gobble!! Edited April 23, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph parikian Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 (edited) http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/images/bigcandle_lit.gif NO ONE IS FORGOTTEN NOTHING IS FORGOTTEN Edited April 23, 2004 by joseph parikian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 How do you know? Compare them, and you will agree! Some samples: Version 1 – Balakian Version 2 – Hovanessian / Margossian Version 3 – Norshkharian (the one I think is the best) Version 1 This incomprehensible thing I'm telling you about Version 2 This untellable thing I'm trying to say Version 3 This story which I tell you and which cannot be told Version 1 Suddenly I heard from afar a dark crowd standing in a vineyard lashing twenty brides and singing dirty songs. Version 2 Suddenly I heard from a distance a black mob of men, whipping, leading twenty girls. Twenty young women, pushed into my vineyard while the men sang lewd songs Version 3 Suddenly from afar a black, beastly mob Brutally whipping the twenty brides who were with them, Stood in a vineyard singing songs of debauchery. Version 1 "Dance", they raved, "dance till you die, infidel beauties. With your flapping tits, dance! Smile and don’t complain. You’re abandoned now, you’re naked slaves so dance like a bunch of ***in’ sluts. We’re hot for you all." Version 2 "You must dance, faithless heathen beauties. Dance, with open breasts, to death, smiling at us without complaints! Fatigue is not for you. Nor modesty. All the way to death, dance, with lust, with lewdness. Our eyes are thirsty for your forms and for your deaths." Version 3 "You must dance", roared the furious crowd, "You must dance until your death, lustfully and lasciviously, Our eyes are thirsty for your movements and your death..." Balakian has obviously exceeded his very limited talents. And only a near illiterate would write something like "we are hot for you all"! And his cowardly display of political correctness that really amounts to racism in omitting the "blue eyes" of the witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 This was the first time I heard Dutch spoken. Interesting. My condolences I think the Dutch are intelligent enough to see that the Turk had nothing to say except to hide behind words and semantics. You'd be surprised... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 And so the infamous poem was read out at the commemoration ceremony in Assen today... I'm not sure I want to say more about this. Just one thing: when you read the press release, take it with a pinch of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Read in which language? Which of the three versions did you prefer, Nairi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Read in which language? You'd be surprised It was in Dutch and very badly done. I don't understand why they chose that guy over so many others who do have the ability to recite and do it well. Which of the three versions did you prefer, Nairi? I don't have the original at hand, but I happen to know that Diana's translations of Vahan Terian are not very accurate. I won't say anything about Balakian. So I guess that leaves New-Worldian I've read some of his other translations and I have to give him credit for at least trying to stick as closely as possible to the original no matter how difficult or impossible at times. Good observation Stepanik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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