Provocative Questions..

[Tranquilizer]

Hello Armenian ladies and gentlemen!

 

A few questions about Armenian language. Curious about what you guys think..

First: Is Armenian one language?

 

Generally, what do scholars mean when they say that the given two groups of people speak different languages?

 

An objective criterion would not depend on political map, on racial and ethnical issues, would it? So my opinion is that the languages of two groups are considered different when there is a certain difficulty for native speakers of those groups to understand each other - without prior knowledge of the other group's language.

 

Why only "certain difficulty"? because otherwise Russian and Ukrainian would not be considered different, or I guess even Norwegian and Swedish.

 

Now my point is that "without prior knowledge of the other group's language" most western and eastern folks would not understand each other. Personally, I am native Armenian speaker Yerevantsi, natively bilingual with Russian actually, but that doesn't change anything. And I have not only certain, but great difficulty understanding the so-called Armenian dialects from south Armenia, and some others. I understand western Armenians better only because I am acquainted with their language - and there still are certain difficulties..

 

So, at the point where Armenia doesn't need any more help from the westerners, and at the point where westerners get totally disappointed with their eastern "brothers", will the languages be indeed considered different?

 

The others are of a more provocative nature, I will keep them for the next time

[Harut]

yes, i think armenian is one language.

 

if "most western and eastern folks would not understand each other" that just means that the person does not have a knowledge of the language. acquiring enough knowledge to be able to communicate (that is, learning only eastern or western armenian) does not constitue knowing the language.

[Arpa]

yes, i think armenian is one language.

 

if "most western and eastern folks would not understand each other" that just means that the person does not have a knowledge of the language. acquiring enough knowledge to be able to communicate (that is, learning only eastern or western armenian) does not constitue knowing the language.

I just wrote a long winded reply but I lost it. So much the better. It turned out to be too long.

First off, Tranq, bari es eger.

I agree with Harut.

Those who know the language well, be it eastern or western have no problem with either.

 

Khaghaghaber akhber, this subject has been discussed a million times, you may find it profitable to search and read what has been said before.

 

Here is one that I wrote some time ago that may touch upon some of the points you bring.

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7842

Edited March 28, 2004 by Arpa

[vava]

Thank you Arpa jan. You're input is always very appreciated

[Tranquilizer]

First off, Tranq, bari es eger.

 

Those who know the language well, be it eastern or western have no problem with either.

 

Khaghaghaber akhber, this subject has been discussed a million times, you may find it profitable to search and read what has been said before.

Hi again!

 

Mersi hyurnkalutjan hamar Yes forumnerum kich em lnum, mek mek, enkan vor hetakrkir tema lni xosalu mi erku mitk im komic el kavelacnem..

 

So, about the languages...

 

Ok, when do we consider two dialects to become distinct languages? When they are spoken in different countries? After all, many languages we know have common ancestors, to which they were dialects once. Say Russian and Polish, English and German, Italian and Spanish, even all these alltogether are beleived to have come from a common source. But no one calls them dialects of the same tongue now. Why? Because they are too far from each other, so that native speakers of one of these can hardly understand the other.

 

Now I don't understand Artsakh people. Why should it be considered an Armenian dialect. They have different words for many nouns, different accent, different sounds, I mean it is really different. Pya hunc, ke matax, krabaxskin lox munk'nk mogonal u s'xraniat 'ral ) - Anyone "who really knows the language" understands this?

 

In my opinion Armenian dialects have gone too far and it's the ethnical and other secondary issues that keeps them all called Armenian. Slavic languages are about as far from each other as Armenian dialects, but everyone admits that they are different yet similar languages.

 

Why do they call Ancient Armenian by a different name, Grabar, cause it's different and we admit it, right?

 

Armenian being an Indo European language is another issue. The ancient Armenian is of course Indo European, but with a great amount of borrowings from other unrelated tongues. From the very basic words denoting natural objects, body parts, and things like that, only very few of them are recognized as Indo European, but the structure and other basic things suggest that it is. But this is irrelevant for our topic, I don't see why have you given me the IE link..

Edited March 28, 2004 by Tranquilizer

[Arpa]

Hi again!

..........

 

But this is irrelevant for our topic, I don't see why have you given me the IE link..

On the contrary, it is very relevent in the sense that the main theme of the above item is that Armenian, and by that I mean all the variants, east west etc. and the so-called regional variations put together is a "dialect" and together with all the languages you mentioned and more are basically the children of the that big mama known as IE.

How long will it take you to learn Spanish or a Slavic language? How long will take you to learn Chinese, Arabic or Congolese? How long will it take an Arabic speaker to learn Hebrew or Aramaic? And the list goes on. Why? Because Latin and Polish are IE but Arabic and Chinese are not.

No matter what we speak, be it Grabar, Yerevantsi or Shushetsi it is still Armenian and it takes very little effort to understand and learn once one knows the basic standard. You may be shocked that I could read and (almost) understand that Artsakhtsi sentence you challenged us with. It says: "Ba henc, kez matagh, karabaghtsin lok menq enq... " I have to work on the rest.

[Tranquilizer]

Well, about the IE thing, of course it's interesting and fun to play with it, do reconstructions and comparisons, but I think the "IE dialect" languages have gone so far apart, that the existence of a common source is of no help any more. After all, these guys found out about the common origin in 19th century, before that the languages were considered completely different..

 

Here's an example text in IE to support my point:

 

Gwrhéei hówis, qésyo wlhnéh ne est, hécwons spécet, hoinom kke gwrhúm wóccom wéccontm, hoinom-qe méghm ppórom, hoinom-qe ccménm hóocu ppérontm.

 

Hówis tu hecwoippos weuqét: “Céer hekknutór moi, hécwons héjontm hnérm widntéi”.

 

Hécwoos tu weuqónt: “Cluttí, hówei, céer kke hekknutór nsméi widntppós: hnéer, pótis, héwyom r wlhnéhm seppi qrnéuti nu qqérmom wéstrom; nécci héwyom

wlhnéh hésti”.

 

Tód cecluwóos hówis héjrom ppugét.

 

I believe not a single word here has its analogy in Armenian. So you get my point - they are very very far apart now.

 

About the Artsakh barbar. Well, I know only a few phrases in it, so my example is not quite relevant. I wrote yesterday to my friend in Yerevan who is Artsakhci, he gave me a few examples of their speech. Again, I know Armenian, the way they taught us at school, and I can hardly understand what Artsakhcis say (written is easier, but still very problematic):

 

1. (easiest) A lakut et torn@ lyav paki li, skvaznyaka, mejks cort@ tarav.

 

2. (harder) Ke matagh parki mghre kon li, ver vagh@ kshana ver kenas knyas

tasi.

 

3. (chinese) Ara, de knya mhre en ghol@ kuzi li, en knanik loh bda stegh

en eshum.

 

Any guesses?

Edited March 29, 2004 by Tranquilizer

[sofia]

Hi ,i just found this old post,:

Now I don't understand Artsakh people. Why should it be considered an Armenian dialect. They have different words for many nouns, different accent, different sounds, I mean it is really different. Pya hunc, ke matax, krabaxskin lox munk'nk mogonal u s'xraniat 'ral ) - Anyone "who really knows the language" understands this?

and have to say it is not right.First of all this sentence sounds absurd,-even me -native barbar speaker,

don,t understand certain words in it,because they are not existing in artsakh dialekt.As for the rest -they

are transliterated not correctly.