Abolish parties? then what?

[Guest]

So much talk about banning ARF,who gives the right to do the banning?That's another question.

But for argument's sake let's say we could ban diaspora parties...then what,who or what takes its place,how would the communities function? these are questions that need answers before we gratuitously dismiss these parties as being obsolete entities.

 

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Zareh

 

[This message has been edited by Zareh (edited September 13, 2000).]

[Guest]

Zareh,

 

I thing you misunderstood the banning proposal. Nobody was saying that the ARF should just vanish from the face of the earth, but whether it should be banned in Armenia.

 

Moreover my personal opinion is that the Armenian parties in the diaspora, or rather what is left of them (especially Ramgavar and Hunchak), should adapt to the new realities and no the other way around. Otherwise they will just become another chapter in Armenian history books. The exception to this is the ARF. Its version of the diaspora is different from the other parties, as it has its own non-political institutions, such as schools, under tight control.

[Guest]

Zareh,

 

I think I may have a proposal towards replacing the political parties of Diaspora. I think one alternative may be while keeping their many organizational structures, these political parties’ voluntary submission to a potential Strategic National Migration Council, under the disposal of the institution of the Presidency of the Republic of Armenia. BTW, I am convinced that in that case the obstacles on the way of the Dual Citizenship of Armenia for Diasporan Armenians will disappear.

 

In my view it is ridiculous to have political parties of Diaspora (or call them political parties), which on that capacity don’t ever participate in the political process of host countries, i.e. never participate in any elections on such capacity.

 

Besides, these political parties not to be obsolete had just one mission after the collapse of the first Republic of Armenia, and the collapse of the Seavres Treaty in Lozan, but never dared to initiate it – to declare a Government in Exile of the United Eastern and Western Armenia. May be this could’ve really advanced the Armenian Cause. I am convinced that the cabinet of Simon Vratsian had the perfect chance and the mandate to do it. But, instead, they decided to waist and plunder the money taken away from the Treasury of the first Republic, when surrendering to the Bolshevik regime.

 

You can check my allegations by getting familiarized with the materials of the 1926 ARF Congress. By 1926, the money was already gone. A copy of these materials is kept in the Historic State Archive of the Republic of Armenia. Obviously, ARF also has them in its possession, but I doubt, though, that it will make them available to you...

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 14, 2000).]

[Guest]

Boghos,

Actually there was a lot of talk about the "removal" of ARF from the Armenian scene.

(Nazi,Natioanal socialist etc...)and if I understand your clarification, your talking about the removal of ARF from the Armenian political scene in Armenia.

Where do you think a mentality of this sort will lead?

Wouldn't you be doing exactly what you despise in ARF?

Furthermore,what happened to the idea of democracy? shouldn't it be left to the voting public of Armenia to decide which party merits survival and which doesn't.Or,do you crave the good old days of L.T-P,and his arrogant and authoritarian rule where anti-Tashnak persecution was the his main preoccupation? Is THAT beneficial to the Armenian society?

 

 

[This message has been edited by Zareh (edited September 14, 2000).]

[Guest]

Zareh,

 

This is not a competition. I hope this is dialogue. The issue of banning the ARF has everything to do with democracy. Coutries have different standards to what is acceptable in order to preserve democratic status. In Germany, as you probably know, Nazi parties are banned.

 

Advocating the banishment of the ARF is a prerogative of anybody and is not necessarily anti-democratic, it could be exactly the opposite. I do not ascribe to myself the decision of whether ARF should be banned or not, however I am fully entitled to give my opinion, as are all the other interested parties.

 

Let´s look at facts instead of picking on people. As I have stated here and in other forums, I think the ARF has positive sides to it but also quite a few negative ones. These outweigh the positive. Does it mean that I want to see it disappear from the face of the Earth ? Of course not. I can very well coexist with much less pleasant or useful bodies.

[Guest]

MJ,

Strategic National Migration Council???

I can't even start guessing what that might be.But if the talk is about creating a "council" of some sort yes your'e right it should be officially snctioned (R of A).But i think it is too soon to contemplate about such an organism,thanks to L.T-P's destructive attitude towards the existing diasporan institutions,(not just ARF) to bring them under "his" controle.I quoted the word "his" because that was not act of a president who thinks or cares about the interests of ALL Armenians but serves his immidiate political career.Until the presidency of Armenian proves to the Armenian public (inside and outside) that actions taken by that high office truely reflects the needs,the will and the welfare of all Armenians,that revered high office will always be regarded with suspicion.

 

About the inability to form a government in exile...and the so called plunder of the treasury...

Dear MJ when I read this I couldn't help but be amused.

Picture the aftermath of the Genocide,picture the collapse of the Armenian republic,picture the Armenian masses scattered all over the Middle East in decrepit conditions...than with a clear conscious blamethe "Vratsians cabinet" for their inability to for a government in exile.

About the plunder,how about this...creating home for the diaspora Armenians,building churches,schools social infrastructure,in other words caring for the immediate needs of the masses.

Was there a true plunder? I don't know but one thing I know,whatever monies there were in the treasury it was (and would have been anyway)plundered by the Kremlin.

Please let's be serious.

Zareh

[Guest]

To Boghos and MJ,

Yes this is a dialogue,and no I'm not trying to portray ARF as saints,far from it,they have had a negative impact on the diasporan societies,BUT here I add,toghether and hand in hand with other parties and interests that equally should be blamed.

Boghos you say ARF's negatives outway the positive I do not share that point of view because I have seen a lot of good work carried out by many honest people in ARF,work that could not have been successful without working within the ARF framework.

 

MJ,when I talked about the distrust of the presidency,I wasn't talking about L.T-P necesserily,but rather about the real possibility of exploitation of that office. The absence of checks and ballances,that have yet to be addressed,leaves the diaspora in a vulnerable position.

My amusement about the idea of formation of a government in exile was not the idea itself,but rather the miserable condition on the ground that existed and needed to be addressed more than anything else,certainly forming a government in exile was a luxury no one could have afforded.You seem to ignore this detail.

 

Again,about the plunder of the treasery...you quote the Archives of Republic of Armenia...from 1926,correct me but aren't these Soviet Armenian archives????

 

Finally,I am not a partisan either and I certainly do not consider the ARF as saints,

but I find that there is lack of ballance in addressing the issue of ARF's importance. I think that there is a genuine will to reform,

and that ironically is due to L.T-P's campaign against the ARF,although twisted in principal,nevertheless acted as a catalyst in forcing the party to look inward and eliminte stale working habits.The work is not finished yet.

Thanks

Zareh

[Guest]

Dear Zareh,

 

I am not a supporter of LP regime, and you can trace in this forum that I have been very critical of his regime, too. However, I think subordination or non-subordination of the Diasporan organizations to the institutions or the “consul” of the Republic of Armenia doesn’t depend on LP, especially that his is not the President of Armenia, anymore. Note that I didn’t say that “council” exists, and attached an epithet “potential” when suggesting it. This is an issue of strategic importance to Armenia, and its future, and if you think that the problem is just in Armenia or its Presidents, then you have to explain the miserable state of the affairs in Diaspora. In the old days ARF used to blame the Communists for all ills, and never assumed responsibility for anything. In our days, it is all LP and his regime, and ARF has done nothing wrong. Seems like ARF is just few steps away from being canonized, to join the long list of Armenian Saints and Martyrs.

 

As to your amusement regarding my statements on the money from the Treasury of the first Republic of Armenia, and your statement on the desperate condition of Armenians scattered around the world, I have to bring to your attention again that the money was reported already gone by 1926. I cannot also buy your arguments that the money would’ve been plundered, anyway, by the Kremlin or was plundered by Kremlin. The fact of taking the gold of the Treasure, and transporting it through river Arax to Iran, and subsequently to other countries is documented even in pro-ARF literature. And if I am not mistaken, the fact is described in Vratsian’s book on the history of the Republic of Armenia, itself (I may be wrong here, since have read it many years ago.) This is a fact, and I don’t recommend you questioning it, because you cannot win the argument.

 

It is funny that you implicitly question the clarity of my conscience, when I am just raising the issue and pointing to the fact, but you are dismissing all the allegations towards those who are to be blamed for their actions, and have no questions on the conscience of ARF...

 

I don’t want to resurrect the arguments about churches, and infrastructures in this tread, since we have had extensive discussions in other ones on this subject. But apparently, a lot of Diasporan Armenians don’t share your views on the subject of building the social infrastructures of Armenian Diaspora.

 

I am not a partisan Armenian, and I couldn’t care less about any of the existing Diasporan parties. As I have stated in my posting, I find ridiculous the very existence of them on that capacity. They have no agenda, no program, they don’t participate in any elections, and wouldn’t even be tolerated on that capacity by even the most friendly to Armenia countries, and they are obsolete. One of the former Prime Ministers (and ARF member) of the first Republic, Khatisyan, I believe, has himself written in mid 20’s “ARF has nothing more to do in Armenia.” I am doing my best to understand what does ARF have to do in the 21st century in Diaspora? May be you can help me to understand.

[Guest]

Zareh,

 

I don’t question at all that there are many honest ARF members, who are serving honestly their communities. An my comments were not directed at individual ARF members, but rather the heritage of that party, its platform, its missed opportunities, its anti-national behavior in the name of national values, etc.

 

Indeed, the checks and balances are absent in the Republic of Armenia, or aren’t strong enough to be considered working. I share your pain for it, but I think that ARF, while not being the primary object responsible for that situation, nevertheless has to share some responsibility with those, who have built our days’ Armenian state institutions and infrastructures.

 

I sort of cannot understand what was the luxury to be awarded in the context of the Government in Exile. What conditions do you mean Simon Vratsian’s cabinet needed, and it didn’t have? They had the money, they were the legitimate government of Armenia, and while indeed there were a lot of problems that the scattered Armenian Diaspora was facing, the function of the mentioned body would’ve been of legal and logistic character. The role of taking care of the Diaspora was not played by the ARF elite, anyway.

 

 

As far as the archives are concerned, yes, indeed the archives were maintained by the Soviet Armenia, and until a relative liberalization was achieved in the Soviet Union in late 80’s, these archives were not accessible to the ordinary people. The materials of the archives have not been made public even now, as far as I know. Nevertheless, it doesn’t imply that the Soviet Armenian Archives didn’t contain original documents from the period of the first Republic, or important in their view documents from the post-first-Republic era. You would be surprised if you see the kind of unique materials preserved there. In particular you will find about a dozen of handwritten letters of Gargin Nzhdeh to the ARF Buro, which then was in charge of the first Republic of Armenia, asking them for help, while fighting against the Red Army, or asking them at least not to release the Russian prisoners of war, who were periodically being captured by the soldiers under the command of Nzhdeh in Zangezur, and those who were being sent to Yerevan – under the disposal of the Armenian Government, to be surrendered to the Russian side, and be sent back to the Zangezure front, to fight against Armenia over and over. You can find out that the ARF basically had agreed to surrender Zangezur to Azerbaijan, and it was the rebellious Nzhdeh, who didn’t submit to the orders, and continued fiercely fighting the Red Russians off of Zangezur to an extend, so that to force the Russians to sit at a negotiation table (and by the way, not without the help and mediation of the Communist Stepan Shahumyan and Alexander Miasnikyan), and to agree to leave Zangezur (including Meghri) within the borders of the Republic of Armenia. Maybe this reference may help you to trace where do the Azeri claims regarding Meghri and Zangezur come from.

 

Now, about the money. My references are based on the transcripts of the 1926 ARF congress, which obviously was held outside Soviet Armenia. Apparently, the Soviets at that time already had successful agents within the rank and file, and especialliy the elite of ARF. And the issue of money was brought to the attention of ARF by a good, high-profile ARF member, who challenged Vratsian and his surrogates during the congress, accusing them in plundering the money. He subsequently declared freezing his membership in ARF, until a report on the fortune of the money belonging to the first Republic is presented to the attention of the rank and file of ARF. I am not aware of such report as of today.

 

 

In the old days, I had managed to get access to these materials, in the result of my personal friendship with a very patriotic Armenian girl, working in the archive on the capacity of a librarian. We managed to photocopy more than 1000 documents of the archive, with the purpose of studying and publicizing them. Unfortunately, I misestimated the inclinations of some former friends - closeted ARF members in Armenia, who were controlling one of the newly established newspapers – Munetik, which subsequently turned to be leaning towards ARF. I surrendered the negatives to them, and needless to say that never heard of these films afterwards.

 

Let me conclude just reiterating the subject of the absence of checks and controls in the Republic of Armenia. It is pity that they are absent. But a partial reason of that absence may be found in the inclinations of ARF to take over Armenia. I know some people in the ruling circles of Armenia really don’t like Revolutionary Parties, and wonder what is ARF going to revolutionarize, next? They also don’t like parties advocating socialism, especially in the 21st century. Add to this their not groundless concerns, that letting ARF in implies inviting a multiple of foreign intelligence services inside the Armenian State structures. Well, I am sure you get the picture...

 

Zareh, I am glad that a sympathetic to ARF member has joined our forum. I hope that it may lead to a nonpartisan dialog.

 

And good luck, and my moral support to you in finishing the work you mentioned at the end of your last posting.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

#1 your talkin about Karakin Nzdeh he was old during the 80s very old so how would he fight? you said you have documents, where from how do you know there real are they real? do you know 100% you should learn Armenia is here because of the ARF may i ask what you do to help your people?

[Guest]

Someone,

 

Karekin Nzhdeh was reported dead at least in early 50’s. His ashes were recovered from a Siberian site by a very respectable man in Armenia, who was married to Nzhdeh’s granddaughter, and who had kept the ashes in a jar, under his bed for decades, while the Soviets were in power. He reviled the existence of ashes in late 80’s. I think nowhere in my message I have implied explicitly or implicitly that an old Garegin Nzhdeh has fought in 80’s.

 

Before you question whether the documents I am aware of are real or not, I think first you have to go and study the history of your nation, next you have to study the history of your party, then you have to learn some manners, much like when you sit at a dining table, in which hand do you hold the knife, and which hand the fork, then how to not poke other’s or your own eyes with the fork, and then I would be ready maybe to debate you, and maybe I can even answer your question about who, how and what does to help his people.

[Guest]

did i say i was in the ARF? that you made that assumtion, i asked what you do for your people not him i know what he does he is the one who started the AYF IN 1933 and ayf is arf for younger people