Demirchyan. National hero or...

[Guest]

This subject was one of the topics last year in another Armenian forum (before October 27). Forum was closed last year because Armenians fought each other, and situation was out of control.

I hope this topic will be subject for mature discussion in this forum.

Here is approximate brief "record" from that conversation:

 

Mr. X: Hamalir, Metro, Airport, etc.

 

Mrs. Y: If follow to this logic, we could say that Rashidov were man of the century. Samarkand, Bukhara, Fergana. After 1968 earthquake Tashkend was the ghost city. Rashidov made it one of the beautiful and modern city in USSR...

 

Mr. Z: Right. Mafia is dynamo of development and prosperity.

 

Mr. A: That's why all former USSR states are giants (in economy) of modern world?

 

Mr. X: But Grzo every year pays 10 to 15 million dollars Tax.

 

Mr R: There you go. And not only this, but also 1 million donation to orphanage and elsewhere. What a wonder man! If he steal every year about 40+ million (things that belong to you), then he could return small piece and become national hero. Why not elect him as a President?

 

Mr P: Demirchyan was recommended by Aliev;

 

Ms. S: My father said that in Demirchyan era there was Yershik, Karag, Snoond, Jiguli, that nowhere in USSR you could find.

 

Mrs. Y: Sell Megri and you will have not only these, but also banana, pineapple, Khoorma, etc in your daily menu. If he sold main strategic points and roads to Aliev for Yershik, this doesn't mean he is national hero. See. Road between Armenian towns and villages in Zangezur went through Azeri territory. Remember Voskepar (in NE), Yeraskhavan, All south East of Sevan (Zod gold mineral). 90% of Armenian Nuvadi became 100% of Azeri Nuvadi. Should I continue this list?

 

Mr. X: But about half of population in Armenia elected him as a leader.

 

Mr. R. This means our nation have long way to go...

 

***

 

Approximately these and other thoughts (of course with heavy insulting to each other).

 

I wish we could discuss here in more civil way...

Thanx

[Guest]

bravo Ararat Bavakanin Lav topic es arajarkel , Sakayn yerevi bajanenk Maseri yev portsenk arandzin arandzin Xosel iys temayi shurj@ , SHateris Haytni Yev Shaters kormits " Sirvats " Antsyali "LAV" oreri Rekavar, Mer BARI, AZGASER, Karen Seropich Demirjyan@

 

KSD> Tvets Hayastanin yev Hayutyan@ >

Marzahamergiyin Hamalir@,

Yerevani Metron,

Zvardnost Odanavakayan@ (Airport ),

Milyonavor Roobliner tsaxsets Haykakan Azgayin mshakuydi pahpanman yev zargatsman hamar ,

 

Milyonavor roobliner tsaxsvets azgayin Harstutyuner@ / VANQER / YEKERETSINER / MATURNER / verakarutselu yev pahpanelu hamar.

 

Amborjovin verakarustvets Gyumri qaraqi Azgayin karuytsner@

 

Tamanyan Zbosaygin

 

 

Orakadzev aygin

 

Harzdan Marzadasht@

Yerevani azgagrakan Taramas - hrasdan dzori mot.

 

experimental Jamankakits Tatron@

 

ARARAT 73 http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif)

iyo Bavakanin JAmanak yev $$$ e hatkatsrel Sproti Zargatsman@ HAyatsanum

 

KArustvel e yerevani Konservatoryan

 

verakangnvel Yerevani OPERAYI TAtroni Shenk@ - 8.9 milyon

 

Liovin verakarutsvel e Kamerayin Tatroni shenk@

 

ARPA - SEVAN Jratar Tunel@

 

Masis - Nunrus Yerkatgits@

 

 

Metsatsel eyv Veranorokvel e Yerevan@

 

avelatsel en Yerevani 6# rd & 7# rd Masivner@ / Davbtashen@/ G1 G2 G3 taramaser@ /

 

stertsvel e Abovyani C-Luys Elektronayin gortsaran@ /

 

 

yev iys bolor@ 1971 - micnhev 1988 tvakaner@

YEV NUYNISK HASTREL E APTAK ( SILLA ) QASHEL ALIEVIN . KENTKOMI JOROVI JAMANAK.

inchxosk Demirjyan @ haythaytel yev berel e Hayatsan iyn inch vro Jorovurt @ karik e unetsel . yes hishum em inchpes vrastani yev adrbejani jorovurt@ galsi Hayastanist karag / pahatso / hrushakeren / sigaretsner / haqnelik / koshik / eyin tanum / kayarani mot gtnvor xanutner@ urraki maqrvum eyin amen inchits . arel e inch vro karoratsel e yev shat depkerum arel iyn inch vro asel en verevits http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif i vercho da CCCP er verevist el asum eyin iyn inch vro petq er..

 

>>>>>>>>>>>hima kasek MosJan es Demirjyanin hreshtak es darstnum che . http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif spasek ,

 

n@pastel e / kasharakerutyun / GAng / Mafya /

sakayn sas taratsvats er amborj CCCP taratskov mek menak Hayastan @ cher yev menak Demirjyan @cher na el hetevets myusnerin sakayn n@ra amenamets sxal@ YERB JOROVURT@ IR KARIK@ UNER NA CHKANGNETS YEV CHREKAVARETS IR JOROVRTIN IYL IJAV PASHTONITS. Jorovurd@ ir karik@ uner.

 

sharunakeli >>>>

 

 

KSD - orok aveli zargatsav yev amrapndvets Hayastani tetev yev tsaner ardyunaberutyun@, Turizm@.

[Guest]

1971-1988 ???

 

And forgot to add a few typical questions at that conversation.

 

Who is responsible for 25,000 martyred of Dec.7 1988

[Guest]

Tchisht es asum Ararat, henc dranic el petq er sksel!

MosJan, iskapes aydqan catsr kartsiq unes komunistneri masin, vor havatum es, te Demirchyan@ karogh er aptakel Politburoi andamneric voreve mekin, aravel yevs Aliyevin? Aptaknerov angam Stalin@ chi zbaghvel.

Yes el catsr kartsiq unem komunistneri masin, bayc voch ayd astitchan.

Ayd aptaki masin arajin angam em lsum.

Isk kasharakerutyun@ iskapes layn masshtabneri er hasel Hayastanum ayd tarinerin.

Yes chem asum te Demirchyan@ mer vataguyn ghekavarn er, bayc voch el hakvats em nran dasel laverin.

Kartsem nra lavaguyn tegh@ ir verjin pashtonn er. Shat xostumnalic er V.Sargsyan-K.Demirchyan dashinq@. Havatum em, vor yete ayd voghbergutyun@ chliner, hima Hayastani vitchak@ shat angam aveli husadrogh kliner.

Inchqan zhamanak e ancnum ayd anitsvats oric, aynqan aveli tsanr e gitakcel te inchqan shat ban korcrinq…

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ararat:
1971-1988 ???

And forgot to add a few typical questions at that conversation.

Who is responsible for 25,000 martyred of Dec.7 1988

---

BArekams yes inks shat Komunistakan rekavarneri pashtpan yav kam kormnakist chem yerel yev kam hetevel n@ranst tsankatsats janaparhin . chnayats vor garapar@ KOmunistakan Yerkri bavakanin lav er yev xostumnalits . inchyeve chashxatets iydkan el lav , sakayn mer HAy azgi yev HAyastani "amenalav TARINER@" yerel en komunistakan HAyastani orok ,

isk inch verabervum e 1988 tvakani charabastik yerkrasharjin . !!
arajin astvats Hokin lusavori mer bolor zoheri .
yev yerkrord / chunenk yev voch mi PAST vor sa shintsu yerkrasharj er. !! jisht e iys yerkrasharj@ shat er dzerk talis Garbachovin vorpisy azg@ zbarvi yerkrasharjov , sakayn sa miyayn yev miyayn kartsik e,
yerel en paytuner / getni tak yerkrasharjits heto iyo yerel en , sakayn yerkrasharjits heto , yerb aveli hesht er paytetsnel ZinBazzaner@ kan terapoxel HAyastanits durs.
aveli hesht er GAxtni karuytsner@ qandel / vochnchatsnel / sakayn sa patahel e yerkrashajits heto, yerkrasharits mek shabats ants tasnyak tarber yerkrneri "barekamner" stugum yev hetazotum eyin hor@ stugum amen inch , chnayats vor yekel eyin martkayin ognutyan hamar, yev boilorn el voch mi ban chasetsin shintsu yerkrashaji masin .
yete RUS@ karor e yterkrasharj anel arhestakan dzevov http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif de mi hat el tor Checheneri g@lxin ani eli http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif kam hents BAKU mi hat el et 8.9 balanots yerkrasharj ani http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif adrbejan@ 100 tary el votki chi kangni /es mek@ im srtova http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif tesnes kerni http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif
Barekamns yerek real linenk / yete asek vor demirjyan @ patasxanatu e 1988 tvakani yerkrashaji hamar , miyayn yev miyayn / vat kazmakerpelov pr@karar jokatneri Leninakan ter hasnelu hamar, jorovrtin vat apahopvelu hamar, yet yerkrasharjayin tarinerin arten demirjyan chkar, dra hamar el veranorogelu hamar ban chem karor asel , sakayn yete kazmakerpver jisht yerevi te aveli shat mardkants kyank k@prkver,

isk inch verabervum e aliyevin silla qashelu hamar http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif patahel e http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif lav el silla e qashel hartsru taretsnerin sra masin nuynisk terterum grvets bavakanin mets kardabalet er da . mi kano or jamanak tur tesnem te karor em hishel jamanak@ yev patjar@.

[Guest]

MosJan

First of all I liked both: your name, and nickname that you have chosen.

Second, maybe your English is better than mine is (mine is too weak). So please try to write in English (this will be good practice for both of us). However if you have difficulty to understand this message I can repost this in Armenian. The problem is that it is hard to communicate in Armenian with 26 letters of Latin alphabet (especially when communicate AREVELA-HAY and AREVMTA-HAY).

 

Now about main subject. You response raised more questions (more clue), than answers. I see many contradictions in your message (more than dozen). So I want to single out questions (to do not mix up all of them).

You said:

>>>BArekams yes inks shat Komunistakan rekavarneri pashtpan yav kam kormnakist chem yerel yev kam hetevel n@ranst tsankatsats janaparhin . chnayats vor garapar@ KOmunistakan Yerkri bavakanin lav er yev xostumnalits

 

Q: Why you didn't follow (or support) Communist ideology, if it (ideology) was good and perspective (progressive)?

[Guest]

1988 Yerkarasharzhe shat hnaravor e vor shintsu e eghel. Harc@ paytyunnere chen, ayl ayn vor Hayastani husisayin shrjanneri takov ancnum e tektonakan chekhkvatsq vore dzgvum e amboghj Sibirov mek ev hasnum Japan. Shintsu erkrasharji hamar anpayman chi vor pajtyune anein Spitaki rusakan bazayum. Paytyune karogh ein anel orinak semipalatiskum. Isk erkrasharzh harutsogh faktore da ayn huzhku REZONANS-n vor paytyunic heto arajanum e tvyal tektonakan cheghkvatskum. Chechnyayi tak ayspisi cheghkvatsq chka. Isk heto hayti chi, te rusnern inch en uzum anel chechennri het: bnajnjel, te gazazacnel ev gcel vracineri kam azerineri, kam naev hayeri dem.

Arazhm

[Guest]

About communism: Armenia was the most capitalist part of the USSR.

[Guest]

Thank you Mrs. Doctor for your compliment. And following to the logic of your response, I can say that you are very open minded, and realist.

Just want to share with you this question:

What do you think, why both Party of HJK and YKM were collapsed after October 27, 1999 ?

 

Today YKM has fewer followers than even HHSh. And almost all leaders of HJK disagree with Stepan Demirchyan (main architecture of HJK ideology Hamayak Hovhanissyan were kicked out from Party long time ago). In my opinion if this guy (Styopik) will stay in leadership, soon HJK will become pocket size party in Armenia.

 

Regards

Ararat

[Guest]

Demirchyan is not a hero, because heroism is based on self-sacrifice and unconditional devotion. Maybe he was a hero of "socialist competition" or "socialist labour" but definitly not a national hero.

Demirchyan was a perfect leader who could unite the people any time. Demirchyan was also a statesman who always put the national interest of ALL ARMENIA at first place. Not Karabagh or his native Gumri but all of Armenia.

In 1988 when people were demanding actions on the part of the government of Soviet Armenia against Azeris who invaded Karabagh he said "Artsax@ jebs chi vor hanem tam". This statement makes him controversial as a political leader, but considering our present situation, I guess he knew that one day we'll be pressed to exchange Meghri for Artsax.

One thing he lacked was the knowledge of non-heroic part of the Armenian history, when king Artavazd's son betrays his father, Mehrouzhan Artsrouni betrays his king, Vest Sargis and KATHOLICOS Petros Getadards betray young king Gagik and hand over the keys of Ani to the Bizatine Emperor, Mkhitar Sparapet is killed by his own men to stop the revolt....until nowadays.

[Guest]

Ararat jan /

Hamakrum em bazmativ qaraqakan kusaktsutyuneri / sakayn yerbeq mas chem kazmi n@rantsits yev voh mekin !!!

inchpes asetsy verevum Hayastani amenalav tariner@ yerel en sovetakan rejimi orok yev sa past e. vor@ yev voch vok chi karror merjel,

isk inch verabervum e im angleren xoselukam voch urraki chem sirum Srtis xosk@ anglerenov asel.

 

i vercho heros e te voch Demirjyan@ Bavakanin mets qaraqakan Gortsich / sakayn heros ? voch ,

[Guest]

In that poem Tumanyan said:

"Yes barutian khoskn em asum" (in entry part)

Honestly I couldn't figure out what he meant (in body of poem).

I will appreciate if somebody help me with this.

 

MosJan

I absolutely agree with you regarding communicating in Armenian language (at least this will be good practice for our young generation). And you are right. It is impossible translate "Anush" poem or "Yes im anush Hayastani" in English (try to translate "Arevaham barn" or "Anush Hayastan" in English).

Some time in the fall I I plan to make additional site (attached to HyeForum), where people could easily type in Armenian with beautiful Mesrobian alphabet. There will be easy tools for both dialects (Eastern and Western Armenian). I love my language so much (and I am sure everybody does).

However it is not bad idea to post in English as well, especially for those who got his/her primary and secondary education in Armenia (one like me). I hope young generation will understand (and forgive our grammatical mistakes).

[Guest]

Please ignore first paragraph of above message. I accidentally included message that I already posted in other branch.

[Guest]

Nax asem, vor inkati chunei, te erkrasharzh@ kazmakerpvats er. Shat enq lsel ayd xosakcutyunner@, bayc yes minchev aysor chgitem da inch er, hnaravor e vor iskapes tarrerq er. Yes inkati unei, vor shenqer@ voronq plvecin naxatesvats ein dimanalu mets cncumneri. Hima chem hishum hastat tver@, yev dzerqis tak el vochinch chka. Bayc yekeq hishenq, vor qandvecin himnakanum henc ayn shenqer@, voronq karucvel ein henc Demirchyani karavarutyan orog. Isk Xruschevkaner@ hamematabar pahpanvats ein, chnayac vor aveli hin ein. Usti yes chgitem, barin er shat, te chariq@ Demirchyani karuycneric. Indz hamar amen hay mardu kyanq@ aveli tank e, qan cankacats shinutyun.

Ararat, inch asem qez HJK-I u EKM-I masin? Dranq kartsem chein el kayacel vorpes kusakcutyunner. HJK-n ovqer ein? Sovetic mnacats naxkin “pashtonavorner@”, voronc neghacats ein HHSh-ic. EKM-n el mi qani shat kargin mardik ein, mnacatsn el naxkin HHSh-akanner. V.Sargsyann u K. Demirchyan@ uzhegh andzer ein ayd pahin qaghaqakanutyan mej, mardik gnum ein nranc etevic. Im kartsiqov ayd kusakcutyunneri andamneric amen mekn ir shahn er hetapndum, dranc mej kain te manr-munr shahamolner, yev inchu che, hayrenaser mardik( hatkapes erkrapahutyan mej).

Veracan ghekavar-heghinakutyunner@, veracan yev npataknerin tanogh mijocner@, kusakcutyunnern el @nkan kolapsi mej en.

Gone yerkrapahner@ chparaktvein, nranq kartsem amenatchishtn ein zgum inch e petq mez, hayeris, bayc nayev xist kariq unein krtvats professional kadreri. Yete ayd terutyun@ chunenain yerkrapahner@, nranq chein nahanji irenc dirqeric qaghaqakanutyan mej.

Chgitem karoghaca harcid liarzheq patasxenel, Ararat. Da im andznakan kartsiqn er.

[Guest]

Ararat / Berj / Doctor / bolors el unenk mer jisht motetsum@ iys hartsin , yev minchev iyster tesnum em vor bavakanin jisht motetsum enk talsi harts / patasxanin , vor@ bavakanin zarmanali e @enthanrapes 3 kam 4rd patasxanits arten sksum enk vijabanel@ chnayats eli ush che

 

inch verabervum e Hayeren ( Arevelahayeren / arevmtahayeren Haykakan FOURM ) masin arten isk ashxatum enk iys Urrutyamb Mer HArgeli / Sireli / goveli / MAster Garo'n arten mi kani shabat e ashxatum e iys urrutyamb , GARIK unenk Ashxarh@ chuni

de inch asats husov em amen inch lav klini inchpes misht , urraki Jamanaki Harts e .

kani vor @endhamen@ 1 1/2 hogov enk ashxatum iys urrutyamb mek GArik@ kes yes

[Guest]

Ararat, I completely agree with you on one point: let's try to post in English. My Armenian is very good, but you're right, reading it in english letters is a different story altogether. I only have this to add: post in english, please, pretty please with a cherry on top (lol.. usually works with men)

 

This topic is especially interesting to me since my exposure to that part of Armenian history has been limited (I moved here in '91 at the age of 12, and my knowledge of armenian politics at that point was incomplete, to say the least). I'm itching to argue, but I think I'll refrain due to my limited knowledge of the situation

[Guest]

I think that Demerchian's contributions during his rule are exaggerated. Things have their natural way to go. We like to admit it or not, Armenia was progressing in the Soviet era. Definitely, during his rule a lot of grand construction endeavors have been completed.

 

I think the corruption in Armenia was elevated to new heights in Demirchian era. As a result, the cynicism of the nation was also elevated to new heights. There were rumors circulating in Yerevan about the state-sponsored imposition of “taxes” on police forces, Communist party nomenclature, industrial nomenclature, etc. Under his rule the Soviet Armenian judicial system also became so corrupted, that sort of every crime was tabulated – escaping each committed crime had a certain $ value.

 

Under his rule, the institutions of so called “zakonni-gogh” and “goghakan” were elevated to a level, that the most disgraceful elements of the society became role models for many Armenian young boys. I think you can find there some of the sources of the contamination of the Modern Armenian Language. There were even cliches coined for these people “Hargvats tgha a,” meaning “gogh a,” meaning “he is respected.” Somehow, the Soviet Armenia became a “gogh hargogh” nation. Don’t we have the fruits of that mentality in Armenia today?

 

It is also true that during his rule the population could enjoy a relatively good lifestyle, better than the one that Russians or other Soviet Republics could enjoy. I guess this is why he gets credit, today. But he also gets credit because he was a macho man – “tghamard er.” Armenians love machoizm.

 

It was very interesting how quickly he brought together a political party. There was neither an ideology nor a program offered by him. However he almost became the second Armenian President.

 

I think he just was a smart politician for the Soviet reality, but had nothing to offer to the Republic of Armenia on the capacity of the head of the Parliament or as President. In a way, however tragic his death has been, it has somehow “canonized” him, while he would have quickly lost credibility on the political stage, if he still was around.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Guest]

Dear MJ

I appreciate your comments, and 99% agree with your view. Why 99%? Because I am more radical in self critique [maybe] than you. Aynu-Amenayniv Yes mi kich vera-pahumov k-artahaytvem zargatsman gnahatakani masin (in Soviet era). But this is another subject (topic).

But in general you are absolutely correct. That's why we have 31-35 PPZOGH-UROGHNER, PATI TAK TKOGH-ner in our Parliament. That's why we have 8000 prisoners in LA jails (and another 8000 criminals waiting in courts for their turn). Compare with twice+ larger Korean/Persian/Indian community in S. California, who has less than double digit BANTARKYAL. Why?!!!

My English is very limited (home environment self learning), and I'm going to use some of your statements (with your permission of course).

Unfortunately there are group of Armenians who participate in many international forums and in presence of many Europeans, Jews, Asians disgrace Armenian name. Some of them think (seriously) we should fight against Russians, Chinese, Americans and especially against Jews and all Muslim world. ("The only friends of Armenians are Jirinovski and Milosevic"). And unfortunately with the help of internet we show "our real face" to the world.

 

You may heard (in Armenian TV program) recent interview of Gumri mayor in Kars. You can not even compare with intelligent talk of Kurdish mayor of Kars. VORTEGH ENK HASEL~. KURDERITS EL HET ENK MNATSEL?

 

By pointing all these out, however YES CHEM "GOVERGUMUM' TER-ZGATSOGHUTYAN COMPLEX (inferiority complex). I am proud of many [college or even high school student] young Armenians, who really surprising me (in politics, art, science, etc). These are our proud future. I wish all our young generation follow to the perfect example of these guys.

***

In another Armenian forum I strongly condemn and fight against "great" Armenian Philosopher/Poet/hraparaka-khos/"new thinker", who thinks 90% of Armenians are fools (another extreme "view"). For me there is no difference between two diagonal positioned extremists.

***

In 1965 in Kom-Aygi number of Armenians murdered/jailed by the hands of today's impostor [so called] "Yergrabah" ministers. These HERO young Armenians were authors of TSITSERNAGABERD HUSHAMALIR, and not Kochinyan or Demirchyan. Thousands of young Armenians were martyred in

Artsakh. They are REAL authors of Yeraguyn, and not those impostor YKM members who with the money of orphan kids gambling in Vegas, and own Bimers and villas in exotic corner of LA and Barcelona, yachts in the Long beach, CA.

 

To the question "why mafia were in the rise in Armenia in 1970-1980-s" some guys answer "That was system, Demirchyan couldn't do anything". To this answer I always contradict by referring Shevardnadze in the same period. To the simple question "who is/are responsible for the deaths of 25,000 Armenians in Dec 7, 1988" nobody answered till this day. Why remember this terrible date? Just because where is guaranty for Armenians, if there will be another EQ in Central tectonic zone (Hazar angam astvadz mi ar astse).

 

Was Demirchyan national hero?...

 

(I have many topics, but prefer to write in Armenian- due to my limited English).

 

Ararat

abrahamyan@usa.net

[Guest]

Dear Ararat,

 

Thank you for your message. Don’t even worry about your English. You are doing fine, just keep studying and practicing it. I am sure every reasonable person in this forum and elsewhere will give you credit for it.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 31, 2000).]