Shushi, Martakert, Martuni, Hadrut?

[Sebastia]

http://www.armeniaemb.org/ArmeniaUS/NK%20Peace%20Process/Images/Artsax.pngDo any of you guys know what the names of the Artsakh provinces mean? (Martakert, Martuni, Shushi, Hadrut, Askeran, LACHIN, KELBAJAR ---- now we can include the last two as well since there is no way we're giving THOSE TWO back, even though i think we should keep everything we have now).

 

Do any of you guys know where the names of these places came from?

 

I know that:

 

Hadrut = in persian means Mesopotemia and it used to be called Mijagetk by Armenians before the persians renamed it. It was called Mijagetk because of the two rivers that bipass it.

 

Lachin = now being called Kashatagh, but i don't know where that name came from.

 

Kelbajar = now being called Karvajar, but i don't know where that name came from either.

 

Martakert, Martuni, Shushi ???

 

Askeran... I know Askar in turkish means soldier, but how were these places named this way.

 

If anybody know, please tell me.

 

Thanks!!!!

[Teutonic Knight]

None of those names sounds Armenian except Martakert and Martuni

[AraManoogian]

From what I understand, the name Karavajar is the old Armenian name and was given because rocks were cut and sold from this region. Kar means rock and Vajar means to sell.

[Gino]

Hi everyone!

Lachin means "falcon" in Azeri.

Kashatagh comes from Qoshadagh which means "two mountains" in Azeri.

Khankendi (name of Stepanakert before 1923) - "khan's town" in Azeri.

Jebrayil - an Azeri version of "Gabriel".

[ARR]

Hi everyone!

Lachin means "falcon" in Azeri.

Kashatagh comes from Qoshadagh which means "two mountains" in Azeri.

Khankendi (name of Stepanakert before 1923) - "khan's town" in Azeri.

Jebrayil - an Azeri version of "Gabriel".

Gino, keep your Aziri propaganda away!

 

Kashatagh means kash - low or lower, tagh means - neighborhood!

The name Lachin was given after 1920 when Artsakh illegally was put within Az SSR.

 

Envy Azeries came up with name Khankendi in 1991, when Artskah proclaimed independence. Real name is Stepanakert, which is self-explanatory.

 

 

Jebrayil is not part of Artsakh and has nothing to do with Armenians. It was just a stronghold of Azeries from where they used to pound Armenian villages and cities, which was eliminated.

[Gino]

Seems, you guys have problems with your own language.

 

"Qash" in Armenian means "weight". And there isn't any word like "tagh" meaning something like "neighbourhood" or "neighbour" (which is "harevan").

 

Stepanakert was named like that after Stepan Shumyan who was born in Khankendi. And even a kid knows that. I guess, it's impossible that the city was named like that before his birth

Link

 

As for Lachin, once populated mostly by Kurds and Azeris, not Armenians, before 1926 was called Abdallar, which is obviously an Azeri toponim. Sorry, but no "Kashataghs" and "Berdzors" at that time.

Link

Edited January 27, 2004 by Gino

[Teutonic Knight]

Seems, you guys have problems with your own language.

 

"Qash" in Armenian means "weight". And there isn't any word like "tagh" meaning something like "neighbourhood" or "neighbour" (which is "harevan").

 

Stepanakert was named like that after Stepan Shumyan who was born in Khankendi. And even a kid knows that. I guess, it's impossible that the city was named like that before his birth

Link

 

As for Lachin, once populated mostly by Kurds and Azeris, not Armenians, before 1926 was called Abdallar, which is obviously an Azeri toponim. Sorry, but no "Kashataghs" and "Berdzors" at that time.

Link

Azveri...

 

In Armenia tagh means neighborhood.

[AraManoogian]

Seems, you guys have problems with your own language.

 

"Qash" in Armenian means "weight". And there isn't any word like "tagh" meaning something like "neighbourhood" or "neighbour" (which is "harevan").

In Artsakh, the word "kash" means "low" and "taghamas" means "neighborhood". In Western-Armenian, "kash" means "weight" and "taghel" means to bury.

 

Gino, you may want to find yourself a dictionary published in Stepanagert, so you can better understand our Armenian.

[Gino]

Azveri...

Is that all you can do? Moron...

 

 

 

AraManoogian, even if it means something in Armenian I wonder when this name first appeared on maps.

[ARR]

Dear Azeri "friend" Gino,

 

For your information Stepanakert has nothing to do with Stepan Shahumyan. There are many Stepans in Armenian history. Stepanakert literally means built by Stepan. Just like Mardakert, which means built by people. Kert or Kertel is an Armenian word of Persian origin meaning build, create with hands. Not to be confused with Krtel that means to castrate. As for Stepan Shahumyan, in his last name was created a raion Shahumyan in the north Artsakh, and a town of Nerqin Shen was renamed Shahumyanovsk.

[Gino]

ARR, I still think you're mistaken. I even provided a link to the well-known encyclopedia. Here is another link that proves the city being named after Stepan Shaumyan: http://delphiclub.ru/slova/N52.php

Before 1923 it was just a small village for which the name of "Stepanakert" was too pompous.

 

And here is a link for Shaumyanovsk which was once called Lower Aghjakend and was renamed after Shaumyan in 1938: http://www.oval.ru/cgi-bin/enc.cgi/83321.html. The name Lower Aghjakend was reestablished in 1992.

 

Both sources are Russian. They are reliable and not biased. Just face it. At least Azeris do not deny that their cities Vartashen and Qutqashen (north-east Azerbaijan) have Armenian names.

[bellthecat]

According to S. Karapetian in "Armenian Monuments in the Region of Artsax":

Kashatagh province was named after a fortress town of the same name in the district. Name means "Lower Quarters", probably because the settlement was located below Tziternavank church. The name (used for the province) only dates fron the 13th C, before that it was called Aghahej. The Kurds renamed the town of Kashtagh "Sultankand".

[ARR]

ARR, I still think you're mistaken.

Gino,

 

Your links are from "Great Soviet Encyclopedia", a communist, racist, “turkophil” institution, which thanks God seized to exist.

 

Great Piderast Lenin gave away all of the Western Armenia to Turks, after Tsarist Army had liberated Kars, Erzurum, and Van.

 

Great Tyrant Stalin cut of Javakhk, Artsakh, and Nakhichevan from Armenia and gave to Georgia and Azerbaijan correspondingly.

 

Should we be any surprised of pro-Azery definition in its encyclopedia?

 

Lower Adzikend again as in the case of Khankendi is a name that Baku came up according to its racist, anti-Armenian policies that rooted in 1920. As it is very common for your nation to change alphabets several times, to come up with new names for cities, and even to come up with a new nationality like "Azerbaijani" for yourselves, it is very different with Armenians. Even after Nerqin Shen was renamed Shahumyanovsk by Communist Party, its inhabitants still called it Nerqin Shen as did their ancestors for thousands of years.

 

Hey, why dont you search the Great Soviet Encyclopedia for Lenin, Stalin, and other bastards and see what kind "heroes" they were?

Edited January 28, 2004 by ARR

[Gino]

If you think you're right provide me a link to a reliable and non-Armenian source as a proof, because nowadays for scholars studying history of peoples from the ex-Soviet Union GSE in the most accurate source. The same information you can find in Great Encyclopedical Dicitonary, published in Moscow in 1998. I searched the Internet for "Nerqin Shen" and came up with nothing while the information about Lower Aghkakend is available even on the Armenian web-site:

http://www.karabagh.am/eng/GlavTem/12etstrukkarabaxa.htm

[ARR]

I searched the Internet for "Nerqin Shen" and came up with nothing while the information about Lower Aghkakend is available even on the Armenian web-site:

http://www.karabagh.am/eng/GlavTem/12etstrukkarabaxa.htm

Gino,

 

Like I told you before, what Baku names or calls are not relevant for Armenian cities and towns in Artsakh. It was a wide practice in Azerbaijan to translate Armenian names of the cities into Azeri or to change them to whatever they wished. However, the real name is the name that people who live in the town or village call it.

 

For example you call you nationality Azeri. Find at least one person before 1917 revolution whose passport or another official document stated that his or her nationality is Azerbaijani.

 

The Armenian site is showing a paper "According to agricultural census of Azerbaijan in 1921". And Armenians unlike Azeries do not change or translate names in documents.

[Gino]

The Armenian site is showing a paper "According to agricultural census of Azerbaijan in 1921".

And that means in 1921 the village was called Lower Aghjakend. So what are you arguing about?

And Armenians unlike Azeries do not change or translate names in documents.

That sounds kinda childish. Sorry, but it really does. It seems you've been facing so many situations where Azeris cheat on translation of official documents that you came up with this kind of statement. But even if I ask you won't be able to show at least a couple of examples.

[ARR]

But even if I ask you won't be able to show at least a couple of examples.

Gino,

 

I am sorry that you have hard time understanding written English. But if you go back and read my posts you will see that I was giving you an example after example.

 

That paper sited on Armenian website "According to agricultural census of Azerbaijan in 1921" is a great example of changing the names of Armenian cities by Baku.

 

Other examples of that is the fact that Baku decided to change the names of Artsakh cities to what ever they like after 1991. A question comes up, "Who in the hell is Baku to change the names of Armenian cities without their consent?" You can sign thousands of documents in Baku, but that does not have any legal binding because they do not have consent of people living in those cities and because they are politically motivated as anti-Armenian.

 

Now, the legislature in Artsakh or Armenia can come up with a document renaming Baku into "Geotastan" will you in Baku agree with that?

 

By the way, were you able to find a person with Azeri nationality backed by historically verifiable document before Russians came to Caucasus and collectively renamed Kurds, Tatars, Talish, and other Muslim tribes into Azerbaijani?

[Gino]

You didn't prove me that the town's name was offically Nerqin Shen or whatever you claim, while I brought you several examples and can bring you more. But how can you prove your point? No one is supposed to believe bare statements.

 

In reply to this "Who in the hell is Baku to change the names of Armenian cities without their consent?" I might ask the same thing: "Who in the hell is Yerevan to change more than 250 Azeri toponyms in Armenia into Armenian ones?"

http://mrashid.home.cern.ch/mrashid/genocid.html

But no one complains, because it used to be the right of every parliament to change names as they want, for instance from Leningrad to St. Petersburg (or vice versa in 1917), from Constantinople to Istanbul, from Schtettin to Szecin and so on.

 

And this does not make any sense to me "were you able to find a person with Azeri nationality backed by historically verifiable document before Russians came to Caucasus" and it is not even "by the way" as you mentioned. By which way? We are not even talking about nationality and origins here (you can check it in the title of the topic) and your question seems totally irrelevant. In the future please try to stay on topic.

 

Anyway, if "Nerqin Shen" does not appear in any of the sources (neither Russian, nor any else, except for Armenian of course), that means Armenians were the ones who came up with the toponym which has never been used before.

[Armen]

Gino, are you willing to make a retrospective travel to the history of all those town-city names. We could go back and see where in the history Armenian or Azerbaijani names to those towns end their existence. And clearly in doing this we should use well known historical sources.

[Gino]

I don't have anything against those that have been Armenian for thousands of years. But changing the names that were given initially long time ago into something else is pointless.

 

Anyway, the topic was about Artsaxi toponyms.

Edited January 30, 2004 by Gino

[ARR]

And this does not make any sense to me "were you able to find a person with Azeri nationality backed by historically verifiable document before Russians came to Caucasus"

Gino,

 

It does not make sense to you because you don’t understand it. Quanta-mechanics would not make sense to a first-grader too.

 

So what my question has to do with city names? It is simple. Some 100 years ago there was no country Azerbaijan, not even a nationality Azerbaijani, no Azeri alphabet. When Russians came to Caucasus and took Baku from Persians, they met Armenians, Kurds, Lesgins, Caucasian Tatars, Persians, Talish, etc. After revolution, communist started a "nation building". They came up with Azeri as a nationality and during passportization most Kurds, Tatars, Talish, some Persians, got their new nationality. At the same time they allowed the newly created Az SSR to create a national identity, translate names of the cities, translate folk songs and even write for them a "history" in Cyrillic alphabet.

 

In other words how can there be an Azeri name for Armenian cities, when there was no Azeri nationality back then? And keep your bogus links to expired encyclopedias yourself. I don’t need a link on web to prove a name of city. I can just ask the people who live or lived in those towns and villages. That is the bottom line.

[Gino]

Of course, there was no nationality back then and in 1918 all Azeris fell from the sky and formed a nation. Nonsense. Those who Russians used to call "Caucasian Tatars" are Azeris. It is the same thing called differently. It is a synonym, you can even say that. A Kurd is a Kurd. A Talyshi is a Talyshi. Don't mix them with the word "Azeri". And the word "Azeri", "Azerbaijani" is used by Brockgauz & Efron Encyclopedia as well as in "Caucasus" by Vassili Velichko referring to "Caucasian Tatars", and those were published before the Soviets came to power. But I'm not going to discuss this with you as I see no point in this discussion (you're going to stay where you are now and link this in weird ways to Artsaxi toponyms).

 

Back to the topic. Do you agree with the fact that Shaumyanovsk was called Lower Aghjakend and Stepanakert was called Khankendi before 1938 and 1923 respectively and were changed by communists after Stepan Shaumyan in favour of local Armenians? If you don't, please prove your point by providing reliable sources. I won't answer if your post is not related to the topic. Thank you.

[ARR]

Of course, there was no nationality back then

First, I can talk about what ever I want.

 

Second, why aren't there any historical documents, books, historical monuments that would mention an Azeri nationality? What is the reason for the change of heart of Caucasian Tatars that one day decided to be Azeris?

 

Here is a clue; you did not have a written language back then. So, what ever the Russians, the Persians, or Armenians called you that were your nationalities. And Communists liked Azerbaijani the best and renamed you. Russians gave you an alphabet and taught to read and write in it. So what did Azeris start doing? They started renaming names of the cities, stilling folk songs, creating a "history" in part Turkic, part Russian, part Persian mixture of language that became known as Azerbaijani.

 

A Kurd is not a Kurd in Azerbaijan, most Kurds were forcefully turkified.

 

Shahumyanovk was never called Lower Aghjakend, neither was Stepanakert called Hkankendi. Those names are fruits of Azerbaijan's racist and anti-Armenian policies.

 

Shahumyan for thousands of years was called Nerkin Shen. Just like Getashen and Verin Shen near by. There are no links on the internet, but there are thousands of people who lived there and know it.

 

You can call it whatever you want. But people living in those cities know it better.

[Gino]

First, I can talk about what ever I want.

You are supposed to stay on topic, that's the rule.

What do you mean: "you did not have a written language back then"? Where the hell did you get that from? What about Fuzuli, Khatai and a bunch of other medieval poets writing in Azeri? You know what, I think you know very little about Azerbaijan and its culture so you can't draw conclusions from those pointless and unproven statements.

Shahumyanovk was never called Lower Aghjakend, neither was Stepanakert called Hkankendi. Those names are fruits of Azerbaijan's racist and anti-Armenian policies.

Prove it then. I don't need those bare sayings. Besides, "Nerqin Shen" is a very primitive name for what you guys consider a lull of the Armenian civilization. I have facts and sources on my side, you have nothing on yours. I don't believe those "thousands of people", I believe official data, records, scholars, and encyclopedias. Is it so difficult to admit that in Artsax there were Azeri cities and villages along with Armenian ones? Or are you guys having a compex whenever you see an evidence of something related to Azeris? Stop being a child. Just face the facts. Read about it. Think about it. Don't appeal to a biassed opinion without knowing the situation, approach to the problem as you hear about it for the first time.

[ARR]

What do you mean: "you did not have a written language back then"? Where the hell did you get that from? What about Fuzuli, Khatai

 

I don't believe those "thousands of people"

Both Fuzuli and Khatai were Persians. They also translated into Turkic some poems but wrote in Persian. Sayat Nova too, wrote some Turkic songs, but that does not make him Azeri. I bet you would claim him to be Azeri too.

 

Don’t pretend you don’t know that Azeris never had ther own alphabet to write in. Under Perisans, they gave you Persian to write in, under Russians cyrilllic, and a couple of years ago, you have changed it to Latin. I wonder why?

 

You choose not to believe real people, but bogus data from expired Soviet encyclopedias because you live in imagination. This reminds me of old soviet story that one person was asked to bring a "spravka" a document proving he is alive.