Military Tribunal Transcript

[bellthecat]

Give me all the infos needed I will track and have a copy of it.

There was a copy on sale on ebay about 18 months ago - Authors name was Gorrini, it was a two volume book, in Italian, paperback cover I think, from the 1930s I think. Sold for something big - probably that darned arkun@usa.com got it, (may his fat wallet rot in his pocket and turn his genitals blue. )

[DominO123]

There was a copy on sale on ebay about 18 months ago - Authors name was Gorrini, it was a two volume book, in Italian, paperback cover I think, from the 1930s I think. Sold for something big - probably that darned arkun@usa.com got it, (may his fat wallet rot in his pocket and turn his genitals blue.  )

I'm happy to see that this arkun does not play only with my nerves, this person possibly just collection them without actually reading them. But don't worry, give me 3 weeks I will have it.

 

BTW, is the work in Italian? Or have you saved a pic from ebay?

Edited December 3, 2003 by Fadix

[DominO123]

Steve, taking a look at my little collection of Canadian newspapers

 

That is what I've found from Giacomo Gorrini about the drowning, he seem to report about thousands, not few.(I already have posted this somewhere in the past, I think it was at Ed forum)

 

Here from Toronto Globe.

 

Rome, Aug 26, 1915 Giacomo Gorrini, the former Italian Consul at Trebizonid, who arrived in Rome to-day, decalred that 14,000 Armenian Christians were killed by Turks and Kurds in one massacre at Trebizonid.

 

"The decree, which was published on June 24, ordered the massacre of Armenians, and forms the blackest page in Ottoman history," said Signor Gorrini.

 

"The result of the proclamation was carnage on a big and bloody scale. Out of 14,000 Armenian Catholics and Protestants residing in Trebizonid only 100 escaped.

 

"I saw thousands of innocent women and children placed on boats which were capsized in the Black Sea. Thousands of young Armenian women were forcibly converted to Mohammedanism. There were suicides without end.

 

"I shall never forget the scenes of horror I witnessed from June 21 to July 23, when I left.

 

"The situation in the interior of Turkey is horrible, and the population is desperately calling for peace, anathematizing the Germans and Young Turks."

Edited December 3, 2003 by Fadix

[DominO123]

Sound that ANI direction is less able than us to prove their own claims. (I'm not surprised, given the fact that with all the ressources they have, they can't build an OK documentation site.) Edited December 3, 2003 by Fadix

[yalpa]

Domino,

 

I think I found out where “bahra ilka etmekle boğdurup mahv ettikleri” came from. I was suspicious that it belonged to one of Dadrian’s work, and bingo, it was on p. 332 of ‘The History of the Armenian Genocide’.

 

“(...)The Armenian deportees, the Court found, were instead handed over to gangs of “repeat criminals” who methodically robbed, raped and murdered their charges, usually by drowning them in the Black Sea (bahra ilka etmekle boğdurup mahv ettikleri)”.

 

It is interesting to see how much meanings can change when one goes from the original to the translation. For example, again in the same work, Dadrian quotes, this time, from the “detailed affidavit [by general Vehib of the IIIrd Army] prepared at the request of the Administration’s Inquiry Commission and repeatedly cited in the key Indıctment and two Verdicts”:

 

(...) The atrocities were carried out under a program that was determined upon and involved a definite case of premeditation [mukarrer bir program ve mutlak bir kasd tahtında yapılan işbu mezalim].” (Brackets in this case belong to Dadrian.)

 

The part about “mukarrer bir program” corresponds to “under a program that was determined upon” in the translation. When we go to the second part of the sentence we see that Dadrian decided to use the word “premeditation” for “kasd”. “Kasd” means intention, knowing, purpose, bad intention and, in some cases, to attack, but not really premeditation. So, what Vehib is telling here is that these atrocities were done either intentionally, knowingly, or with bad intention behind them. It tells us that the perpetrators were aware of the consequences of what they were doing or that this program was designed to attack. The “mukarrer bir program” is perhaps closer to premeditation than “kasd”, but it is still not the same thing.

 

However, when we read this translation by Dadrian, we get the idea that there is at least one person who knew that the massacres were premeditated the way Dadrian thinks they were. They were of course premeditated, but how far did this premeditation go? The above sentence does not really tell us that they were premeditated in terms of decades or years. According to this information, it could have been premeditated a month or a decade ago. It simply tells us that the perpetrators knew what they were doing. The word “premeditation” in this sentence or fragment should really be changed with one of the meanings of the word “kasd”, depending on the context of the testimony. Judging from the word “tahtında”, which follows the word “kasd”, “bad intention” or “with the intention to attack” would be the right choice here. This seems to be a better choice, since it does not make sense why Vehib would see the need to mention that the whole thing was premeditated after he tells us that that it was done according to a program that was decided upon. I believe that he tells us that there was a program that was decided upon and that this program was prepared with bad intentions in mind. I may be wrong, since I do not know the rest of the testimony, but it does not make sense why he would tell us the same thing twice or tell us that the people who decided upon this program had done this because they knew what they thought about it previosuly. People who decide upon something usually think about it before they decide. Vehib probably tried to tell us that this program was designed to attack with bad intentions in mind.

 

To sum it up, I think that Dadrian is a bit too hasty in his translation. It seems that he is forcing his material a bit too much to prove what he has in mind. It is obvious that there was a genocide, but it is not very clear that whether this genocide was planned two months or ten years before it. I think this is what Suny is talking about.

 

Coming to your first post and your comment about two different Special Organizations, there should really be some other sources before anyone can take this statement by this commission seriously. The motive for this commission to create another Special Organization or a secret circle in this organization was very much there. Dadrian himself talks about this in detail in his work. This commission that may have considered “executions a mere concession to the Entente rather than a punishment justly meted out to criminals” perhaps “expected to be treated less sternly at the Peace Conference” by pretending to punish the criminals responsible for the genocide. However, at the same time, there were simply too many responsible ones and too many of these were involved in the Kemalist struggle to establish a new regime. It was a good idea to create another Special Organization and make sure that only those people that had already disappered were in this special circle. What I am saying does not prove that this was what really happened, but shows that there was a strong motive to create such an organization. Evidence from at least another source not realted to this one is needed to confirm that there was really another organization.

 

However, even if there was another organization, this still does not refute what Suny is saying. If this second organization was really what was responsible for the genocide then we are still back at where we started, as we still do not know when exactly this organization was created. And, even if we knew this, this would still not show us when the decision to destroy the Armenians was taken.

 

It has been a while since we started this discussion. I even forgot in which thread it was. Therefore, I hope I am answering to the correct arguments by you. If not, remind me where we were or tell me which thread it was.

[DominO123]

Yalpa, I will try to answer you later. Just one point, this quote may be present in Dadrians History of the Armenian genocide, but I did not take it from there.

 

The work covering the Ottoman law gazzette was "A Textual Analysis of the Key Indictment of the Turkish Military Tribunal Investigating the Armenian Genocide,"Journal of Political and Military Sociology, 22 (1994, 1), pp. 133-172

 

You can see part of it here.

 

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmati...ion_detail.html

 

The orginal work contained two colons, on the right side there was the English translation in the left side the original Turkish version.

 

The pages you see here refered are those from the Ottoman law gazette, in the orginal work there was an index of the source of those pages.

 

Azad the forum master of the TACT board may have a copy of the work in PDF form if he has saved it... because in the past I've sent him the work, unfortunitly I've lost the work when one of my HDs scrapped. But I do plan to re scan it.

[bellthecat]

I'm happy to see that this arkun does not play only with my nerves, this person possibly just collection them without actually reading them. But don't worry, give me 3 weeks I will have it.

 

BTW, is the work in Italian? Or have you saved a pic from ebay?

Sorry, Domino, I didn't save the pictures. It was in Italian. Didn't someone say a while ago that this Arkun was buying stuff on behalf of a museum? So in that sense he is just buying to collect rather than to read!

[DominO123]

Steve, are we talking about the guy collecting for the so-called Museum in Australia? Frank sent them one of the national geographic issue for this so-called Museum which we didn't had any news of.

 

Museum or whatever other thing, it still suck, those materials should be put on the net, not in a museum that no-one goes... As for the work, I may have located a copy from Florence that I could have, I am in the process of verification and waiting a confirmation, i will tell you more later.

[hytga]

did you guys consider this document at ANI?

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/sampledoc...-26-16-text.htm

[bellthecat]

Domino - in this thread from a while ago: http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=922 Domino wrote "You're right, he is buying for a "museum". The buyer is Aram Arkun, director of the Krikor and Clara Zohrab Center of the diocese".

 

I agree absolutely with what you said about distribution of material over the net. But probably those backing and paying for the "museum" think they will get more prestige from doing something safe and traditional than from backing something more useful.

[DominO123]

I hate such people, all the energy I put on that, I wait no reward at all and don't mind that people don't point me telling I did this or that, one wonder if it is really for the exibition or them telling how they spend their money for a so-called good cause, rich idiots that don't know how to spend their money. Everytime he start bidding I know that I don't even need to try bidding because he will win what he bid for, I'm sure that every bidders knows that as well, they won't even adventure on trying to place a bid. I won't be surprised if the majority of times he just learn such works exist on ebay, unlike me that is there for specific important works I need and I get entirly stolen from that person. Edited December 13, 2003 by Fadix

[DominO123]

Yalpa, I forgot your answer, so to make things simple, I hated your answer, not because of the content, but because there is nothing I could really disagree with. And that is quite rare.

 

I thought about this for some times, I am myself forced to side with Suny on this premedition thing. I do not believe that the genocide was premedited for years... I just think like the Germans refer to it, that the occasion just presented itself and after the defeat on the Russian front early in the war a decision was taken, I do think that this decision was probably taken on Febrary 1915 and that probably even Djemal was not informed of what really was this decision.

 

I as well sense a little that your position has changed a little, you sound a little more confortable on this topic. Am I wrong?

Edited December 14, 2003 by Fadix

[yalpa]

Domino,

 

"I as well sense a little that your position has changed a little, you sound a little more confortable on this topic. Am I wrong?"

 

I think I can answer you much easier if you can tell me what you mean by "this topic". I am guessing that this topic is the Armenian Genocide. But, then, it is very easy to make the wrong guesses in the world of the internet. So, it will help me if you can tell me what this "this topic" is.

[DominO123]

yalpa, when I said changing your position, it was more about the way you handle it than the subject itself, it is more of a feeling and maybe a wrong guess, never know.

[THOTH]

Yes - Yalpa - I somewhat agree. Though I know you have a very sophisticated /more complete then most approach towards it - in the pst i had sensed greater reluctance (or now a greater ease) to accept that yes - these things did occur and can be coinsidered uncategorically - without need to examine all the various causative events to assign blame and waht have you...etc. Again just an intial ipression - along the lines I think to what Domino is sensing as well....of course I fully expect you to say - "no change" LOL

 

BTW - I sent you a PM months? ago...did you get it. I owuld like to intorduce you to this ethnologist (for lack of a better name) that I mentioned to you before. Am also planning to see if he wishes to get involved in some of our recent er debates here on racial origins...though I think he is really interested in more serious discussions.