Rubo Posted September 22, 2002 Report Share Posted September 22, 2002 Hi NairiI want to say that I respect you for your concerns, which orbit outside of narrow sphere of personal interests. Bravo! It is always a good idea to brainstorm for great ideas however let me share my experience. About six mouths ego I proposed to come out with an idea to help Armenia in another forum and after numerous intense discussions we all basically agreed that Armenia foremost needs investments and business contacts for foreign and domestic markets. The site is finally done and you can visit to check out. http://armport.com/ My point is Armenian politics is rather secondary outside Armenia and the best you can do short of getting yourself involve in business venture is to work in ANCA office in Holland or any other Armenian organization you prefer. If you feel chattering here is rather unproductive which I agree then spend perhaps couple of hours doing activism. It may make you feel better. Recently I volunteered to teach chess at my son’s school and managed to tell the kids about Armenians and even had them dance Armenian circle dance. Small things add up. It does not have to be serious complicated project.Best regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2002 Once again I am confronted with Armenians - inside and outside this forum - who are capable of describing, in detail, the situation in Armenia and diaspora, but who seem to have no practical solutions for it. I remember proposing a brainstorming session earlier about what we could do, in a practical sense, to help our declining situation. My first input was to start an NGO aimed at uniting Armenians and "cleansing" our leadership, by replacing dishonest leaders with honest ones. My second input is to open a Loesje branch, or such, in Armenia and in (large) Armenian communities in diaspora. Please visit Loesje International Page: http://www.loesje.org/posters/posters.html Also have a look in the archives (bottom of the page) and the main page for more information. Now before you attack my input, please think to yourself that it is merely a raw idea. If you have a better one, please contribute. Criticizing and picking will come once we have everyone's input. I hope to see as many ideas as possible. Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubo:we all basically agreed that Armenia foremost needs investments and business contacts for foreign and domestic markets. The site is finally done and you can visit to check out. Rubo jan, what's the point of investment when we have a corrupt leadership? quote:My point is Armenian politics is rather secondary outside ArmeniaWhy do you say this? Armenia is our only country. If we don't care about the politics in that country either... Where are we heading? Also, I wasn't only talking about Armenia, but also the diaspora. quote:and the best you can do short of getting yourself involve in business venture is to work in ANCA office in Holland or any other Armenian organization you prefer. If you feel chattering here is rather unproductive which I agree then spend perhaps couple of hours doing activism.Rubo jan, ever since I was born I've volunteered for the Armenian community, and I'm willing to continue. I was hoping the solution to our problem would be based on voluntary work as well. quote:It does not have to be serious complicated project.I think my second input, in particular, is exactly that: simple and voluntary. If you have a better idea, please contribute. Best regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 22, 2002 Report Share Posted September 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi:... I remember proposing a brainstorming session earlier about what we could do, in a practical sense, to help our declining situation.Sorry for again showing my lack of knowledge on the subject but since there cannot be any stupid questions (just stupid people ) is the situation really "declining" or is it just "bad"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip: is the situation really "declining" or is it just "bad"?Both, I would say. People are still leaving Armenia, and Armenians in diaspora are still assimilating at a high rate. That's not stagnant. [ September 22, 2002, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: nairi ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 22, 2002 Report Share Posted September 22, 2002 Rubo jan, what's the point of investment when we have a corrupt leadership? Nairi jan, one does not have to be sociologist or even an economist to see that corruption always infests and procreates amongst less developed and financially poor countries. I am not going to bring examples of third world countries but let’s look at Italy. Italy is a truly divided country. The northern part is well developed and financially affluent and less corrupt but on the other hand in the south corruption and mafia is still prevalent due mostly for lock of opportunities and less development. We can clearly see that the best method to fight corruption is through creating opportunities so people in Armenia don’t have to go Russia and US for jobs. To change the leadership is not an easy task. In Italy numerous lawyers and judges were killed when they tried going after the corrupt. To some extend what happened in Armenian parliament is an example that those people are willing to even kill to retain their power so in conclusion I chose the peaceful logical route-help Armenian economy and this should and must be taken seriously by Diaspora instead of just mainly focusing on the genocide.Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted September 23, 2002 Report Share Posted September 23, 2002 Nairi jan,we are an infant country,after hundreds of years of bieng ruled by others,this is the first time we have an indpendent country,i think we are still in the prosses of learning how to govern,i mean Armenians governing Armenians,about corruption there is corruption in every country,we are in a very volatile region we are serounded with enemies, it efects every aspect of the lives of Armenians in ROA,it will take time to get better,they are coming out of 75 years of comunist rule,it takes time to change,it wont be easy but it will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 23, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2002 It's funny how the only people who have reacted to this thread are those who do NOT complain about our situation, or those who are actively working on it. Thanks for your pov Hovsep: I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted September 23, 2002 Report Share Posted September 23, 2002 quote: ... corruption always infests and procreates amongst less developed and financially poor countries. I am not going to bring examples of third world countries but let’s look at Italy. Italy is a truly divided country. The northern part is well developed and financially affluent and less corrupt but on the other hand in the south corruption and mafia is still prevalent due mostly for lock of opportunities and less development.Hi Rubo,I agree with the spirit of what you wrote. But I'll chime in with my take. There is a strong correlation between economic development and lack of corruption. However, it is a "chicken or egg" sort of problem. Is the economy stagnant because of corruption, or is it corrupt because of a lack of legitimate opportunities presented by a vibrant economy? This is a question that even the best economists have not been able to answer satisfactorily, let alone find a solution to the problem. It is a vicious cycle that can be broken either by an external factor, or a cultural shift. In my view, a quick exit from the cycle of corruption and economic stagnation will almost certainly rely on a few "extraordinary" individuals that do not conform to the "norms of behavior" of the society caught up in the loop and have sufficient political and financial clout. So, if you want to make a big difference, focus on making a ton of money, and start your strong-willed NGO (non-governmental organization). Make your huge investments conditional upon the fulfillment of the needed "structural reforms", and allow the political leadership to take credit for the positive outcomes. Anyone here with the money? TB [ September 23, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 23, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2002 Very honestly Rubo, I don't personally see a major problem among Armenians either. I think we're quite united (more so than many other nations), and I do believe that we are progressing. I actually started this thread for all those who continuously complain, but seem to have no practical solutions. I was hoping this thread would stimulate their imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted September 23, 2002 Report Share Posted September 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote: ... corruption always infests and procreates amongst less developed and financially poor countries. I am not going to bring examples of third world countries but let’s look at Italy. Italy is a truly divided country. The northern part is well developed and financially affluent and less corrupt but on the other hand in the south corruption and mafia is still prevalent due mostly for lock of opportunities and less development.Hi Rubo,I agree with the spirit of what you wrote. But I'll chime in with my take. There is a strong correlation between economic development and lack of corruption. However, it is a "chicken or egg" sort of problem. Is the economy stagnant because of corruption, or is it corrupt because of a lack of legitimate opportunities presented by a vibrant economy? This is a question that even the best economists have not been able to answer satisfactorily, let alone find a solution to the problem. It is a vicious cycle that can be broken either by an external factor, or a cultural shift. In my view, a quick exit from the cycle of corruption and economic stagnation will almost certainly rely on a few "extraordinary" individuals that do not conform to the "norms of behavior" of the society caught up in the loop and have sufficient political and financial clout. So, if you want to make a big difference, focus on making a ton of money, and start your strong-willed NGO (non-governmental organization). Make your huge investments conditional upon the fulfillment of the needed "structural reforms", and allow the political leadership to take credit for the positive outcomes. Anyone here with the money? TBI really have to stop getting distracted in the Forum the coming few days, at least, but TB reminded me one of my middle school teachers (which made me smile big time), who used to say, "yete qachal@ degh unena, arach ir glkhi tjare ktesni," which translates, "if a bald man had a remedy, he would have first taken care of his own head." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark:So, if you want to make a big difference, focus on making a ton of money, and start your strong-willed NGO (non-governmental organization). Make your huge investments conditional upon the fulfillment of the needed "structural reforms", and allow the political leadership to take credit for the positive outcomes.Thanks for your contribution TB. Any other ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2002 IF a bald man had a remedy. Not he HAS a remedy. The whole point of this exercise is to come closer to finding a remedy, so that we can all take care of our own heads first before moving on to sharing it with the rest of our people. If you have any ideas, please contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 hello dear Nairi I saw this post by coincidence, was just searching some info in internet and saw this, and decided to reply as I think I might have some nice and interesting information regarding Loesje in Armenia. Well , I am a member of this forum since 20 minutes or less, but I think it shouldn't be a serious challenge for me to discuss some stuff with the members of this forum. I know people who are currently (since January 2005) doing Loesje ations in Yerevan, and if you want to know more about them you can e-mail to armenia@loesje.org address. This group is in touch with Arnhem group, the Loesje International, and their collaboration is quite successful, as in 2 monthly bulletins there were articles about Loesje Armenia already. Hope to hear from you, best regards Xray Once again I am confronted with Armenians - inside and outside this forum - who are capable of describing, in detail, the situation in Armenia and diaspora, but who seem to have no practical solutions for it. I remember proposing a brainstorming session earlier about what we could do, in a practical sense, to help our declining situation. My first input was to start an NGO aimed at uniting Armenians and "cleansing" our leadership, by replacing dishonest leaders with honest ones. My second input is to open a Loesje branch, or such, in Armenia and in (large) Armenian communities in diaspora. Please visit Loesje International Page: http://www.loesje.org/posters/posters.html Also have a look in the archives (bottom of the page) and the main page for more information. Now before you attack my input, please think to yourself that it is merely a raw idea. If you have a better one, please contribute. Criticizing and picking will come once we have everyone's input. I hope to see as many ideas as possible. Nairi style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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