Are Armenians Religious ?

[Boghos]

Most Armenians believe in God or some other supernatural being(s). In that sense they are religious.

 

When it comes to the Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, I think that the great majority acknowledge its existence but go very little beyond that. The Armenian Church has become an almost irrelevant institution whose major task seems to be celebrating weddings, baptisms and funerals, give or take a bingo session here and there or a benefit for a more or less worthy cause. This is true especially in the Diaspora where the Church was to a certain extent an unifying source, which is no longer the case (yes, we had a split, but nothing too exciting, other apparent monolythical religions have much worse splits...) and also as it remains a sort of ethnic registrar of sorts, an Armenian speaking notary. Succesful (whatever that means) Armenians institutions post-Genocide at least, have been mostly aïque. Even though swearing into Ramgavar (which I am not classifying as succesful, btw) requires an oath to the Church !

 

Of course there have been exceptions, militant eclesiasts appeared in London, in California, perphaps Karabagh, less so in Lebanon. But these are minor appearances. The cast as a whole is very weak and aimless. Perhaps content in their usually lower middle class existence that is treated like a second rate celebrity in community functions.

 

A clear example of how the Church was late into adapting to rapidly changing circumstances is that it not adopt any of the maisn items in the agenda, except perhaps for stimulating diasporans to throw millions of dollars at new churches in Armenia (a country with a few already if I remember properly...). Why the Church doesn´t say anyting about its centuries old assets in Western Armenia ? Why it took the wrong side on the human rights front in many countries ? Why it doesn´t raise its own educational standards ? Is it destined to further weakening ? Should we care ? These are not new questions. They have been discussed here before, in a way or another. Perhaps we have new members that would like to join in, or maybe new perspectives have emerged from older members...

[Sasun]

I get the impression that a lot of Armenians in Armenia are superstitious and their religious beliefs are marred with this superstition. Even if they are not religious they are superstitious.

[axel]

This is quite true. I am not superstitious, yet I consider myself as religious. I think religion is not about superstition or "belief". But this point of view, I confess, is very very rare among most Armenians I know (relatives or friends). Western Armenians are almost entirely secularized. And the Armenian Church in the Diaspora doesn't work effectively against this secularization process. It almost lends itself to the secular view reducing it to a cultural institution instead of the spiritual guide it ought to be.

[Arad9]

From my experience I believe that the resposiblity of mostly falls on the individuals and not on the Church(as a institution). There is a famous saying that comes from the bible, ask and you shall recieve. I bet if a DerHayr came upto a your typical Armenian and asked him to join him in a bible study you will find the typical Armenian would have aleast a half a dozen excuses before the end of the DerHayr's invitation.

The Armenian Church has become an almost irrelevant institution whose major task seems to be celebrating weddings, baptisms and funerals, give or take a bingo session here and there or a benefit for a more or less worthy cause.

Is that the Churchs fault or the fault of the people, the last time I checked, in order for a Church to exist it must have people.

This is true especially in the Diaspora

I couldn't have said it better myself. It is in some part in the Diaspora. We have become to secularized and forgotten one of the foundations of being an Armenian.

[Armat]

A clear example of how the Church was late into adapting to rapidly changing circumstances is that it not adopt any of the maisn items in the agenda,

I agree on this with Boghos. I also find the Armenian church service to be extremely boring. Plain sleeper! No wander you hardly see any young people in the Armenian churches this days. I am secretly Jealous about the black Baptist churches. How joyous it is and how expressive it is. Too bad we don’t even have anything remotely close. I can’t stand the lamenting crying style of our church music. Like Arpa it just pisses me up. It wants to make every Armenian feel victimized and that just infuriates me. We should have thunderous joyous music at churches. Hopeful sermons, programs for kids, in short active, progressive institutions instead of decaying caricature of what the Armenian church could be.

[Arad9]

I agree on this with Boghos. I also find the Armenian church service to be extremely boring. Plain sleeper! No wander you hardly see any young people in the Armenian churches this days. I am secretly Jealous about the black Baptist churches. How joyous it is and how expressive it is. Too bad we don’t even have anything remotely close. I can’t stand the lamenting crying style of our church music. Like Arpa it just pisses me up. It wants to make every Armenian feel victimized and that just infuriates me. We should have thunderous joyous music at churches. Hopeful sermons, programs for kids, in short active, progressive institutions instead of decaying caricature of what the Armenian church could be.

 

Armat jan, if the Armenian youth want Church activities they should be an active part of the Church. I don't blame the kids, I blame the parents mostly. You think out of a busy work week a parent could make some time to establish a childs religious upbringing? I grew up in the Church, went to sunday school, learned the bible, sang songs, went to Church camp and was an active member of my Church. If my parents didn't make an effort for me to be a part of the community them who is to blame? After a certian age I enjoyed going to Church more and more. And about the Baptist, if you feel that Church should be that way, then why don't you gather your friends sings songs and praise God like they do. There is nothing wrong with that. But there is a great difference what Armenians have done for over 1000 years and what the Baptist do on Sundays. And about the "crying" style, I think you have a misunderstanding.Our singing at certian parts of the Badarak is thunderous and joyous! and at other parts of the Badarak is more on self reflection. If anyone has honest and sincere questions about our Badarak or Church I would love to help them with the best of my abilities. I am happy there is at least some interest in our Church.

[Armat]

Arad jan nice post, much to reflect.I do send my kids to an Armenian sat church school but I like to attend the church with my family more regularily.You are right though we the parents must take responsibilties upon ourselves.There is much that I do not know...

[Sasun]

Axel, maybe now you will see better what I meant saying Armenians could benefit from genuine spirituality.

[axel]

I've never said the contrary. I wouldn't be spending my time in religious discussions if i didn't consider spirituality to be fundamental. But I am quite sorry, genuine spirituality is not Sri Chinmoy. If we are not able to find God inside the Armenian Church, we will not find Him anywhere else. What we may find is just "spiritual" illusion.

[Sasun]

I've never said the contrary. I wouldn't be spending my time in religious discussions if i didn't consider spirituality to be fundamental. But I am quite sorry, genuine spirituality is not Sri Chinmoy. If we are not able to find God inside the Armenian Church, we will not find Him anywhere else. What we may find is just "spiritual" illusion.

I believe the Armenian Church is not the only place where God could be found. It depends on the person, people are all different.

Sri Chinmoy is genuinely spiritual, I have no doubt about it. In fact the proper word to use is not spirituality but God-realization. This is something that only a few people have, not me, not you. However, that doesn't mean that Sri Chinmoy knows the only right path (he is the one who says it). He never says that any Church or any religion is wrong, including the Armenian Church.

[Sasun]

I wouldn't be spending my time in religious discussions if i didn't consider spirituality to be fundamental.

Well, I never thought that you were not religious or spiritual. Sorry if you felt I did.

[axel]

Sasun, don't get me wrong. I didn't say the Armenian Church was the only place where God could be found. I just said that if one is not able to find God in the Armenian Church, one is not be able to find Him elsewhere, which is different

[Sasun]

Sasun, don't get me wrong. I didn't say the Armenian Church was the only place where God could be found. I just said that if one is not able to find God in the Armenian Church, one is not be able to find Him elsewhere, which is different

Oh I see. I agree, if soneone grew up as a member of Armenian Church (not just nominally) was thoroughly and seriously believing and practicing, then if one day he/she thinks that God cannot be found this way then he/she will not find elsewhere also.

[ED]

Sasun, don't get me wrong. I didn't say the Armenian Church was the only place where God could be found. I just said that if one is not able to find God in the Armenian Church, one is not be able to find Him elsewhere, which is different

 

Axel, Sasun

 

 

I want to ask both of you the same question, is there any place you can think of you should find God, before you go or belong to any congregation?

 

I would like to know your views.

 

 

For me the answer to my own question is very simple, one should find God within his/her self first.

[Sasun]

Edward, interesting question. But first of all let's make sure we are on the same page. By 'where' I mean a religion, path, discipline, etc. By 'finding God' I mean God realization, or salvation, or illumination, or liberation - the same thing that is known by different names.

To give a short answer to your question, God is within us in the sense that we are divine. How? Very simple, because we have souls. That divinity must be realized by discipline and practice of whatever religion/school/path is close to your heart. There are various ways to achieve this goal of finding God. If you go to church to do this then you are in the right place. If you don't go to church and still do this then you are also in the right place. It is your own choice as to what to do, but you must sincerely do something to this goal. Needless to say, it is also your choice to not do anything, then you will not find God.

Anyway, this is my personal belief that I have realized so far

[Arpa]

Sorry to be so forward.

Moderators please take note.

Can we have these discussions off the air, i.e. on a PM basis?

Most of us here seem to have in some way resolved our spiritual crises, or the lack thereof.

Boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen and others if you are having a spritual crisis, many of us do or have in the past. Don't you think you need to talk to a priest or any other speciialist, may be even a psychiatrist?

Please come back when you have resolved your spiritual problems and spare us all the wasted time and space.

Boghos' question was adequately answered showing that religion and culture are two distinct subjects and neither should be confused.

May I suggest that you take your discussions to jesus/god.com, mohammed.com or budha.com, whatever site that may be, but I am sure there are millions of sites devoted to those kind of subjects.

Can we talk about Armenian things? Even the Pope does not talk about religion this much.

[Sip]

Dear Arpa, this is after all the "HyeForum -> RELIGION & THEOLOGY -> Religion" section. Seems like everyone is civil about things so I don't see any problems. If we kick this out of here, since there are also zillions of joke sites on the web, then we have to remove the joke section too... then the ever so popular "romance and love" section. It's not hard to see that slowly we'll have nothing left but the Genocide section with which we'll then define the identify of our Armenian forum (I know MJ is laughing at this).

[Arpa]

Dear Arpa, this is after all the "HyeForum -> RELIGION & THEOLOGY -> Religion" section. Seems like everyone is civil about things so I don't see any problems. If we kick this out of here, since there are also zillions of joke sites on the web, then we have to remove the joke section too... then the ever so popular "romance and love" section. It's not hard to see that slowly we'll have nothing left but the Genocide section with which we'll then define the identify of our Armenian forum (I know MJ is laughing at this).

By all means Sip.

I am not advocating censor or any.

To my knowledge there are no psychiatrists or theologians on this forum to answer the questions raised in a logical manner.

By all means, let us maintain the subject topics but when the debate turns into a dialogue/monologue between two correspondents.

Let me illustrate what I mean.

Some time ago when I signed on another forum the first post I saw was by someone who thought he had proof of God's existence. It went on for days when he would post ten items insisting that God did exist, he would even become very exasperated, and at times abusive. Eventually I found out who he was, he was a teenager whose father, even tough was not a professional religious practitioner, was a lay person deeply immersed in religion, he was a Jesus freak, even if he belonged to the Armenian Apostolic Church. It turned out that the kid was going through a severe spiritual crisis, in short he was trying to be loyal to his father but he was finding it very difficult, what he was doing in reality was he was looking for someone to help him decide whether to "honor his father" and not question, or someone to tell him that his father was all wet that there really was not a God.

I don't know what happened to that kid, for all I know he may have ended in an insane asylum.

I feel for them, I don't want to hurt them, but as I said, they may consider to PM some of their posts.

This is what I suspect that these corrsspondents that write about religion and the lack thereof ten times a day are going through. That is what I mean by, "they may need professional guidance" , and I don't see any forthcoming on this forum.

They may find their answers in other fora where these kinds of subjects are discussed 24 hours a day.

[Armat]

First it was the “Jews” then “the Genocide” now it the “religion” which is more like running a democracy in the third world-“say anything you like as long as you sing what I like to hear!”

Was not your comment about the unity-thousand year ego bla,bla or do I understand your version of the unity is just that YOUR VERSION or no options! Furthermore I did not read anyone on this thread acting like irrational religious zealots or about to have a “crises” that need to be silenced and removed to Personal massage. Practice little tolerance please! Like Americans like to say don’t like TV channel switch it!

[axel]

Edward, when I say the Armenian Church, one should not understand the building or even the priest, but the mystical entity that is invisible and eternal. I do agree that one has to find God within oneself in the sense that one has to undertake a specific path. However, I believe that without spiritual communion, there may be no God, just a biased projection of an individual (subjective) ideal.

 

Arpa, I don't want to be rude but you are the one who is going through a spiritual crisis. Your overreactions on the subject are quite telling.

[Arad9]

He never says that any Church or any religion is wrong, including the Armenian Church.

 

Actually Sri says Christians and the Apostles as well, misunderstood Jesus's teaching and that there are wrong Christ.

[Sasun]

Actually Sri says Christians and the Apostles as well, misunderstood Jesus's teaching and that there are wrong Christ.

Not really.

[Sasun]

Axel I watched Andrey Rublev. Its an outstanding movie, good advice. I have seen only one other movie by Tarkovsky but don't remember the title. I am planning to find some more. By the way, Paradjanov was a big admirer and friend of Tarkovsky, as you may know. He left an unfinished movie about Tarkovsky before he died. I guess you have seen Paradjanov's movies, have you? His collages?

[Arad9]

From the way Arpa is writing he makes it seems he has proof God doesn't exsist, and whoever believe in God is stupid and is not worthy of Arpas time.

If you can prove that there is no God then you have proven your point and I won't talk about God any more, if you can't then don't make yourself smarter then everyone else. As well as the teenager thats was testing his spirituality, I am ashamed of you. Instead of supporting the "Armenian Culture" you believe in, by denying God and have a passionate hate toward the Armenian Church. You are definitely showing your true colors.