Bones98 Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Know, I have been barely introducted to beruitsy type of armenian and it seems that the sentence and tense structure is changed. Like if u want to say "what are u saying"u have to say : Inch Ke ses gorMy mother says that this is the first form of the armenian languageand I was wondering if that is true or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 What does it mean "first form" and why would the "first form" of anything not be where it originates? Unless your mom believes Armenians originated from Beirut. But if she means it's the first form of "western Armenian" then that would kinda make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 And how would YOU have said "what are you doing"? I only know one way of saying it: "Ints gessess kor", and I didn't know that there was another way of saying it, so I'm curious to find out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 "Inch es anum?" <=> "What are you doing?""Inch es asum?" <=> "What are you saying?" The verbs being "anel" and "asel" which translate to "doing" and "saying". "Inch" means "what" and the "es" just makes it all work (to address it as a question to a second person). "inch gesses kor" probably means "what are you saying" (not doing) but I'm not too familiar with western Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Thanks Sip. BTW, my mistake, I meant to write "saying'' as in the first example, not "doing". With doing, it would be "Inch geness kor?". In the example you provided in Eastern Armenian, doesn't "anel" mean "to remove"? (In western, it does...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 remove -> hanel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 First off there is no such thing as :kor" in proper Armenian. We would have our mouths filled with hot pepper for using it.It is not necessary to use "kor" when a simple "inc k@ses" (in the present tense) is more than sufficient. The "kor" is erroneously added to make it a continuous tense. The "kor" is probably a Turkish influence. I will not go into Turkish semantics. Some time ago we had a heated debate about the use of "kor". Majority of the consensus was that it was from Turkish. Even if it is an emulation of Turkish grammar it is wholly and uniquely Armenian, even if it totally unnecessary as you will see why. The Armenian language is comprised of two major families, the "um" family that is commonly known as Eatern and the "k@" family, western. As it was demonstarted in the "um" family one would say; "Inch es anUM"? While in the "k@" family it would be "Inch k@nes"? "k@nes" is a contraction od "k@ @nes".Coming back to "kor/gor".If you listen to some Armenians from Istanbul, specially those who had been originally from Sebastia you will hear them say things like; Utem k@, berm k@. The place the "k@" at the end of the phrase. Some may even go even further and say; "K@ utem k@, k@ berem k@". It is the second K@ that has evolved into the "kor/gor" when one says "K@ uem kor" or simply; "Utem kor" etc. Just as Sip posed the question; When did the Beirutsis become such linguists. By now their Armenian is probably 25% Turkish, 25% Arabic, 25% French and English and maybe 25% Armenian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Arpa is correct, in so called Western Armenian there is no such thing as "gor".Most Diasporans I know use the word and at the same time say that they try not to but just can't stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Arpa is correct, in so called Western Armenian there is no such thing as "gor".Most Diasporans I know use the word and at the same time say that they try not to but just can't stop it. This reminds me how we would mock our teachers making up such sentences as if they were saying: "Tso ankhelq apush kezi k@sem GOR vor Hayeren lezvi mej GOR goyutyun chuni. Ays hazarerord angam e vor kezi k@sem GOR, Hayeren lezvin mej GOR chka, k'uzes GOR vor norem @sem"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Arpa is correct, in so called Western Armenian there is no such thing as "gor".Most Diasporans I know use the word and at the same time say that they try not to but just can't stop it.This reminds me how we would mock our teachers making up such sentences as if they were saying: "Tso ankhelq apush kezi k@sem GOR vor Hayeren lezvi mej GOR goyutyun chuni. Ays hazarerord angam e vor kezi k@sem GOR, Hayeren lezvin mej GOR chka, k'uzes GOR vor norem @sem"? That sentence was DISTURBING lol @ tso That sounds like some of the Diasporan kids trying to speak Armenian to impress the Yerevantsis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 The verbs being "anel" and "asel" which translate to "doing" and "saying". "Inch" means "what" and the "es" just makes it all work (to address it as a question to a second person). oh boy... inch = whates = are (from linel = to be)anum = doing (from anel = to do) inch es anum? = what are [you] doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 ''That sounds like some of the Diasporan kids trying to speak Armenian to impress the Yerevantsis.'' (Teuton) Tell me Teuton, what is the point of your comment? Why would a Diasporan kid want to ''impress'' the Yerevantsis? I happen to be a Diasporan"kid'', and I do NOT give a Fxxx about what a Yerevantsi thinks of me. The only reason why I bother to speak Armenian is because I owe it to my ancestors. It's called TRADITION and FAMILY VALUES. It's got nothing to do with impressing anybody but myself. So, on behalf of all "Diasporan kids", I'm asking you to change your distorted view right here right now. And, apologizing wouldn't be a bad thing either. Thank you very much. Comments like yours only divide Armenians, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Hell, if I read other comments like that, I won't see the point of giving not even a single dime to Armenia. Why would I if I don't get the respect I deserve? Who would be foolish enough to give his hard-earned money to a country that doesn't recognize him as one of his own? Put yourself in my shoes and try to answer the question. As for Arpa, I might be wrong, but the "gor" is just added as the equivalent of the "ing" in English. Example: What are you saying? - Inch gessess kor? What say you? - Inch gessess? (also means "really?" or "what do you think about it?'') 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Considering I haven't had much "formal" Armenian education, it is funny that sometimes I seem to speak cleaner "formal" Armenian than a lot of the new Yerevantsi's that come to LA. I have to start throwing in a bunch of "ara ara ara's" and a few "vapshe"'s just to help them understand sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Just as Sip posed the question; When did the Beirutsis become such linguists. By now their Armenian is probably 25% Turkish, 25% Arabic, 25% French and English and maybe 25% Armenian. When did ''Beirutsis'' ever pretended being Armenian linguists anyway? With all the Soviet corruption made to the Armenian spoken in Armenia, they might actually be more Armenian than people with Armenian citizenship! As for your percentages, make that 25% turkish,25% Arabic, 25% French and 25% English and 0% Armenian while you're at it. That will certainly make them feel welcome in Armenia and feel Armenian. Vive l'Armenie. (that's Beirutsy Armenian (French) for "Hurray for Armenia") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 (edited) Considering I haven't had much "formal" Armenian education, it is funny that sometimes I seem to speak cleaner "formal" Armenian than a lot of the new Yerevantsi's that come to LA. I have to start throwing in a bunch of "ara ara ara's" and a few "vapshe"'s just to help them understand sometimes Barev bolorit, bolorin, amenqit, amenin Now what was wrong with that sentence? inch eq kartsum? nuynen kartsumem bolornel/amennel/lrivel/amboxjnel! It’s easy to get confused in all the dialects we speak in Armenian or Diaspora. I agree with you Sepean jan, Just like I have to throw in a line like. Babam zang xpap tun@ mart chkar ell How would an Armenian from Armenia understand that? Can we all get along/yolla gnanq/harmarvenq? Ps. why do we have to use "tsi" to define an Armenian from somewhere? Just wondering <_< Edited October 1, 2003 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Ps. why do we have to use "tsi" to define an Armenian from somewhere? Just wondering <_< In my world we don't but if others want to define themselves as Horses - "tsi" that is fine by me. I tell people that I am Armenian when asked where I am from, and when they ask me where I came from or where I was born I do tell them that I was born in Armenia, however when they turn to me and say "Hayastantsi es" I tell them I am not a horse, but they are welcome to be one if they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Considering I haven't had much "formal" Armenian education, it is funny that sometimes I seem to speak cleaner "formal" Armenian than a lot of the new Yerevantsi's that come to LA. I have to start throwing in a bunch of "ara ara ara's" and a few "vapshe"'s just to help them understand sometimes Sip, ara ape inchi es @tents baner asum huh? Vopshem avel pakas ban chxoses. eghav. te che razbiriati ketanq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Sip, ara ape inchi es @tents baner asum huh? Vopshem avel pakas ban chxoses. eghav. te che razbiriati ketanq. Let me try and fix that Armenian version of ebonics/slang: Sip, paron inchu ek artyok aydpisi baner asum? Karch asats, khndrum em shat mi khosek izur tegh@, haskaneli eh husov em dzez ayd parz gaghapar@. Tsayrahegh depkum kareli eh ays harts@ lutsel ankaghakavar mijavayrum. Ps: To the gentlelemn that was offended by that comment. I'm not Armenian, not by a longshot. I'm just stating the facts, that's the reality. You guys are treated like more of an "odar" than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Paron Ishxan, k'hajoyeiq ardyoq kisel mez het dzer hayereni aydpisi gerazants gitaktsutyan gaghtniq@? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 (edited) Paron Ishxan, k'hajoyeiq ardyoq kisel mez het dzer hayereni aydpisi gerazants gitaktsutyan gaghtniq@?Anshousht, metsaguyn hachuykov. Hay lezun krum e haryur hazaramyakneri patmakan hishoghoutyun, ousti lezvapahpanutyun@ hamazgayin ev nuyn pahin mijazgayin gerkhntir eh. Nahangnerum Grapar sovoreluts anmijapes heto, Haykum Hay lezvi dasntatsneri aytseletsi ughigh erku tari. Isk inchu ishkhan ev voch aspet? Edited October 1, 2003 by Teutonic Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Isk inchu ishkhan ev voch aspet? @ndunum em tarqmanchakan sxals: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 i think it was MJ who once said that if you claim to know Armenian, but Western, not Eastern, or Eastern, not Western, then you simple don't know the language. and i agree. (or you know it partially). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 ... then you simple don't know the language. Well, at least your English skill be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Well, at least your English skill be good. see, this is what happens when i try to act intelligent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 i think it was MJ who once said that if you claim to know Armenian, but Western, not Eastern, or Eastern, not Western, then you simple don't know the language. and i agree. (or you know it partially).I agree with MJFor those who know complete formal Armenian there practically is no eat or west. I said formal. The problem is the slang. If we mean eastern with 50% Russian and western with 50% Arabic and Turkish then there is a problem. Ironically Hayastantsis use more Turkish words and phrases than say a beirutsi the resson may be twofold, beirutsis may recognize Turkish words and consciously and deliberately avoid them.As to Aspet's mastery; Erkrord lezvin tiratsman makardak@ sahmanvadz e arajin lezvin tiruyti chapanishov. To illustrate, the foregoing sentence was translated from; The level of mastery of a second language is limited by the the mastery of the first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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