Persians Are Firmly Behind Armenians!

[Sip]

You see how stupid I am!

Armenians are Mongolian Jews.

That would explain my strange cravings for mongolian bbq today (all-you-can-eat of course).

[America-Hye]

Arpa,

 

You misquote me again. I NEVER said that Armenians are Mongolian Jews, but that we have elements of these in our genepool. As for the Mamikonians and Bagratunis any "alien" genes" these persons had have been long diluted. through intermarriage with the local population.

[MJ]

Dear PF:

 

A vast segment of Armenians wants to be recognized as victims. That’s what even the terminology “Genocide Recognition” suggests. It is a state of a psychological dead-end that the socio-psychological setup of the Armenian Diaspora has driven this segment into. It has resulted from several factors. First of all, Armenians have indeed been victimized. But the Genocide is only one of the victimization factors. This syndrome in the psyche of the Armenian nation has started way before the Genocide. It has a history of almost 300 years.

 

The sad fact of the mater is that this obsession over the victimization syndrome has resulted from the lack of perspective for the future. Some wise man has said something sounding like the people who cannot get over their past have no future. It can be rephrased here and asserted that the victimized people who see no positive outlook for their future have nothing else for themselves but to live with their past. Under such circumstances they grow liking their troubled past. It sort of provides them with a good foundation to excuse themselves from the responsibility of doing on their own what needs to be done. Then, they dwell into theories based on faulty assumptions, which eventually leads to the formation of a pseudo-culture. The entire paradigm of their existence becomes built around an insinuation that others owe them something and as soon as a stamp of approval is placed on their victimized status, things would get much better. If the entire nation dwells into such a state of psychological dead-end, one can claim that the expiration date of such a nation can be seen on the horizon.

 

However, that is not the case with all of the Armenians. There is a growing sentiment among the younger Armenians that enough is enough. True, these people are in minority currently – especially those who raise their voice. But the Republic of Armenia is only 12 years old. Increasing numbers of people recognize that the new outlook for the future is going to come from the Republic and is associated with the Republic. Time will make this paradigm a prevailing one – there is no way around it.

 

And Armenians are not without help to rebuild their future. In the last decade or so, the Republic of Armenia has consistently been the second largest recipient of American foreign aid on a per-capita basis. The help, not necessarily in terms of cash assistance, has come from many different corners of the world and not only from Christian nations. As you might know, Armenia has received significant assistance from Iran. Japan and China have also been occasional contributors. In this sense, Christianity is the least of the factors. Besides, we are not a Christian nation but a secular one.

 

As far as Jews are concerned, I think the picture is frequently misrepresented as far as their psyche is concerned. There is a significant revolt amongst the younger Jews, in and out of Israel, against their own victimization syndrome. I have met very high profile Jews who have told me that they feel ashamed for the financial compensation received by the Jewish people for the endurance of the Holocaust. I also know some who have personally accepted compensation and claim that they can’t get over the trauma that it has caused to them and they still feel ashamed. Young and progressive Jews are much like the progressive representatives of any other nation. And they constitute not a small number. Many of them feel very resentful at the phenomenon of “Jew” and “Holocaust” being inseparable attributes of each other.

 

Additionally, Armenians don’t lack organizations. Several Armenian organizations have proven their resiliency, though many traditional organizations have ceased to exist due to their lack of a vision for the future. It all depends on their mission. The mission has changed. Those who recognize it and adjust themselves, continue to grow, the others just expire. This is normal.

 

If there is any recognition that Armenians may count on that would be on the grounds of turning the Republic of Armenia into a model state manifesting civic and democratic society and an anchor of regional cooperation and stability. It is not that hard to accomplish. If Armenians have to be recognized for their suffering, they’d better stop to exist sooner rather than later, since that kind of parasitic state of existence and image is neither something to be proud of nor desired.

 

And welcome to the Hye Forum.

Edited September 28, 2003 by MJ

[Arpa]

MJ may have expressed my sentiments about the G better than I could.

I have not made it a secret that the last thing I want to talk about is Genocide. I have also expressed, on several occasions, to some peoples' utter shock that the Genocide can only be resolved "in kind". Anything short of that would be a concession and an ultimate defeat.

 

Some time ago, on another forum it was suggested that the "Armenian identity is based on the Genocide". I had to strongly disagree as I did not quite understand the premise. To me a suggestion like that is tantamount to the "caricature" of an Armenian that MJ describes above so eloquently. As to the presmise of our identity being based on the Genocide making me so uncomfortable was that my interpretation was and still is that the proponent of that theory was almost proud to be a product of the Genocide. He/she was so smug in his victim status. What bothers me most is that nine out of ten incidents in our history have ended up in our defeat and humiliation and yet we keep recounting them as if they were cause for pride. I have said this in public and I have been severely reprimanded for it that of all the shameful sagas in our 4000 years of history the Genocide is the MOST SHAMEFUL. Even Vardananq when we lost every soldier including the Commander pales in comparison to the shamemefulness of the Genocide. Yet there are those who breathe, eat and drink Genocide every minute of their lives. The Genocide was not only the most shameful it also virtually put a stop to our culture, I mean CULTURE. Whether one realizes or not out of every 10 books written since then nine are about it. We have not produced even one memorable book, piece of art etc. Even the latest one by Balakian... guess what? About the Genocide.

When did we become such losers that we gloat in our tragedies? My genocide is bigger than yours!? Only today on Groong an item listing all the earthquakes since such year. Every time there is an earthquake somewhere someone will dig up earthquake records and once again remind us that OUR EARTHQUAKE WAS BIGGER than their's. There was an earthquake in Japan measuring 10 on the richter scale, that is almost twice as powerful(I don't know seiemology but does not every richter point multiplies tenfold the power?) as the Armenian one in 1988. How many Japanese died? One? two? How many Armenians died on Dec. 7, 1988? A cause for pride? Considering that the Japanese number 50 times more than us that would interpret to 1,250,000. Even the comparable ones in such backward places as Turkey, Afghanistan et al caused a couple of thousand dead at most. Cause for pride?

Victim mentality?

Our Genocide is bigger than yours?

We lost more dead in our earthquake than you?

 

Maybe now I understand what that guy was trying to say that "Our identity is based on the Genocide".

 

One more thought.

I have expressed this in public as well.

I have this recurring nightmare that the Genocide issue has been reolved. I wake up in cold sweat. Heavens! What a void will that cause!

What will Armenians talk about? (we can always talk about the Jews)

Who will we blame for our failures?

[gamavor]

Moshe I can tell a Semite from a mile even if he is blond Yes, many Semites are blondish too. More over, I can smell a Semite even through Internet

[America-Hye]

Gamavor,

 

Your nose must be stuffed up at present. I suggest an anti-histamine. Perhaps you are "smelling" my Assori blood.

[Teutonic Knight]

Moshe I can tell a Semite from a mile even if he is blond Yes, many Semites are blondish too. More over, I can smell a Semite even through Internet

A Semite is a lingustic term like Aryan.

For example Sumerians were Europoid and with Nordic features but later spoke a semitic tongue after being overpowered by the savages in their neighborhood.

The Assyrians spoke a Semitic tongue and they used to have a Europoid phenotype now an Assyrian looks just the same as your average Arab or Kurd.

Same goes to Phoenicians who were also Europoid and spoke a Semitic tongue...

 

The so called jews that you speak of with such features are Askhenazis that are a mix of Khazars and Europeans (mainly Slavs).

 

Before the 18th century the word "jew" did not exist.

Nor did Judaism, Judaism=Pharisees.

[gamavor]

Yes and No. Semite is racial type just like Aryan. True though, today many "Semites" are not semitic and many Aryans are not "Aryan".

Moshe is a jew pretending as an Armenian.

[Persian Friend]

Dear MJ:

 

Thank you very much for your answer.

I found it most convincing and enlightening and wish you and the Armenians all the best in their endeavours particularly those in Armenia.

 

I hope that the world will stay vigilant so that these tragedies never occur again.

 

Last night many of our Armenian compatriots who participated in Olympic Games on behalf of Iran before the Iranian Revolution were honoured on the Iranian satellite TV called NITV.

 

All the best.

[Teutonic Knight]

Yes and No. Semite is racial type just like Aryan. True though, today many "Semites" are not semitic and many Aryans are not "Aryan".

Moshe is a jew pretending as an Armenian.

Nope. Neither Semite or Aryan are racial types.

Indo-European is a racial type aka Europoid.

Finns(not Ugrics), Estonians, Hungarians, Basques, Georgians etc. are all Indo-European peoples yet none of them are Aryan. While Indians are of Elamite-Dravidian extraction with a touch of Caucasoid blood from the invasion in 1500 BC yet 80% of India is Aryan, only High Caste Indians are untouched Indo-Europeans.

For example, Thales the first know philosopher was a Phoenician whose native language was Semitic but he was 100% Europoid.

 

In any case Moshe is definitely not Armenian.

[Armat]

MJ, Arpa

I understand your views about the AG. Why can’t there be parallel directions? Pushing for recognition and rebuilding the nation. The AG recognition is deeper then merely satisfying the victim’s lust for revenge or petty feelings of victimization. It is fundamentally about justice, closure. If a man murders a child or for that matter the whole family, should not that perpetuator brought to court? Justice? Accountability? Now we are talking about over a million people murdered how can we just walk away and pretend it is too much of a burden to think or talk about. I certainly don’t feel like a victim but I would not hesitate to pursue the AG. This ultimately is a moral dilemma. I can’t justify myself for letting murderers get away without as much as saying” we are sorry”.

[MJ]

Armat,

 

I am not denouncing the pursuit for justice.

 

I also think that “parallel directions” does not properly describe a meaningful course of actions. I rather think that there should be one direction which might be broad enough to encompass every meaningful thing and everything in its proper context.

 

I am having a hard time to characterize the currently observable “strategy of the pursuit for justice” as pursuit for justice.

 

As far as the murderers’ getting away without saying “I am sorry” is concerned, it is much to be thought about on how to get them say “I am sorry.” Additionally, being “sorry” is something that they have to feel. Saying that they are “sorry” without really feeling that way does not address in any meaningful way the fundamental need other than helping them in getting away with it.

[MJ]

Thanks, PF.

 

Wish you all the best, too.

[Arpa]

MJ, Arpa

I understand your views about the AG. Why can’t there be parallel directions? Pushing for recognition and rebuilding the

Whare did you get the idea that either MJ or I are advocating to forget?

What we , or at least I are saying is, let us by all means pursue recognition, not just simple "Alright, OK, you asked for apology. Here it is 'we are sorry'! It is our total and complete obssession with the issue whereby we have abandoned everything else. We have even forgotten how to live. As to one's child or family being murdered, many people lose loved ones, be it natural or manmade, some do go over the edge and abandon everything, become obssessed with retribution and resolution while most others go on with their lives and resume being productive citizens, that is not saying that they forget their lost loved ones or advocate to forgive and forget the crime or the criminal.

That is the problem with some Genocide chasers. It is almost as if they may have found an excuse to be unproductive.

As to Genocide recognition or reolution, I have, and I am sure the likes of MJ have also attended more Genocide commemorations than the number of years many here have been on this earth. Yet I have not abandoned my family or profession, or even my appetite to learn things Armenian, good things mind you as you may have already noticed.

Go ahead puruse it but don't use it as an excuse for the pitiful state of our culture and wellbeing.

[America-Hye]

OK Gamavor and Teuton,

 

Let's make a bet. How about $20,000. I know Gamavor is a successful attorney and can afford it. We will get all the legal papers drawn up by an Armenian attorney I know. It will all be sent before a judge. I have a blood relatives who can vouch for my Armenianess. I win, you lose.

[Sip]

OK Gamavor and Teuton,

 

Let's make a bet. How about $20,000. I know Gamavor is a successful attorney and can afford it. We will get all the legal papers drawn up by an Armenian attorney I know. It will all be sent before a judge. I have a blood relatives who can vouch for my Armenianess. I win, you lose.

Nope sorry. You said yourself Gamavor is an attorney. Therefore, you lose.

[gamavor]

Moshe, if you have in mind my new (old Benz) as an attribute to status you are wrong. Not that I need your 20K but why not? We can split them with Teuton and have a nice skiing season in the Austrian Alps.

[gamavor]

Sip, you are welcome too

[Sip]

Sweet! I'd be happy with just the Rockies ... since I saw Dumb and Dumber, Aspen has been towards the top of my list of places to go to ski and I haven't been there yet.

[gamavor]

Haven't been to Aspen either, but I think we need to re-negotiate our remuneration.

[Twilight Bark]

A Semite is a lingustic term like Aryan.

For example Sumerians were Europoid and with Nordic features but later spoke a semitic tongue after being overpowered by the savages in their neighborhood.

The Assyrians spoke a Semitic tongue and they used to have a Europoid phenotype now an Assyrian looks just the same as your average Arab or Kurd.

Same goes to Phoenicians who were also Europoid and spoke a Semitic tongue...

 

The so called jews that you speak of with such features are Askhenazis that are a mix of Khazars and Europeans (mainly Slavs).

 

Before the 18th century the word "jew" did not exist.

Nor did Judaism, Judaism=Pharisees.

Sumerians were mostly Armenoid (I have read some time ago a web site claiming that a sub-group of Sumerians had Dravidian features; I don't know how credible that is). And they were most definitely NOT Nordic. They called themselves "Black-heads" apparently referring to their hair color. Their pictures and statues look quite Armenoid, and not Nordic.

 

You seem to be trying to classify every ancient civilization around the Mediterranean and Western Asia as "Europoid". That is a kind of wishful thinking that I find tasteless.

 

At some point you will have to gain the maturity to admit that the "Europoids" were latecomers to the civilization game. That shouldn't be that painful, as once they came to the game they created the most glorious civilization the planet has seen (in addition to some truly evil things).

[Teutonic Knight]

Sumerians were mostly Armenoid (I have read some time ago a web site claiming that a sub-group of Sumerians had Dravidian features; I don't know how credible that is).  And they were most definitely NOT Nordic.  They called themselves "Black-heads" apparently referring to their hair color.  Their pictures and statues look quite Armenoid, and not Nordic.

 

You seem to be trying to classify every ancient civilization around the Mediterranean and Western Asia as "Europoid".  That is a kind of wishful thinking that I find tasteless.

 

At some point you will have to gain the maturity to admit that the "Europoids" were latecomers to the civilization game.  That shouldn't be that painful, as once they came to the game they created the most glorious civilization the planet has seen (in addition to some truly evil things).

Sumerians were Armenoid?

What is Armenoid?

You mean the hook nosed, toad faced swarthy creatures?

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Images/p42f1.gif

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Images/p42f3.gif

 

You're not an Afrocentrist on the Farrakhan PR camp are you?

 

The Sumerians often had blonde hair and blue eyes. There is evidence on how they portray their gods, and how they refer to lower caste people as having dark hair and dark eyes in their ancient writing.

 

"Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind..."

 

I Hammurabi, the gracious king, have not been careless nor been slack on behalf of the dark-haired folk whom Illil has granted to me (and) whose shepherding Marduk has given to me; I seek out peaceful places for them (and) have relieved their cruel distresses, (and) I make light to rise upon them. With the mighty weapon which Ilbaba and Ishtar have bestowed upon me, with the wisdom which Ea has allotted to me, with the ability which Marduk has given to me, I have plucked up (my) enemies from north to south, extinguished wars (and) prospered the land; I have made the people of the towns to lie down in safety (and) have left them none to affright them.

 

We obviously did not make this up, since it came directly from ancient writing.

 

Dravidians?

I hope you meant the Elamites. The Elamites have no racial connection to Sumerians aside from creating the earliest known civilizations.

 

Sumerian civilization effectively died out when it was assimilated by the semitic savage hordes that conquered it.

 

Sumerians called themselves 'the black-headed ones,' (sa-gi-ga) which is the source of the allegation that they were black. In my opinion, this refers to their dark hair. Sources reveal they had long hair and preferred long-ish beards; a trait shared by the Vikings and Ancient Aryans who invaded India. This is a typically Caucasoid trait. I don't believe there is any doubt they were Caucasoid.

 

That leaves us asking, which branch of the Caucasoid tree? The main distinction is Semitic vs Aryan, in my opinion, as I believe in a Semitic-Aryan dualism where these two branches competed for the same land in what we now call the Middle East. White-skinned people once lived all over the Middle East, Middle Asia, North Africa, and Turkey before invasions and eventual assimilation marked the end. And like Celts, Hittites and Hussites, and various Hellenes and Armenians in Anatolia (Turkey), I believe the Ancient 'Whites' or Aryans of the Middle East were invaded and racially displaced through assimilation.

 

The problem we find is that unlike the Amorites or Hittites of the Middle East, we cannot designate for sure the Sumerian language was 'Indo-European'. (I should say, 'they' because I have no qualifications at all to designate languages. Experts, in any case, cannot agree on the classification.) I, therefore, hesitate to call them 'Aryans.' I, nevertheless, believe them to be a member of the White (and non-Semitic) race who had a language that either preceeded the Aryan language itself, or perhaps preceeded the spread of the Aryan language.

 

But what is important is that we see clearly Caucasoid features, seen also here on the goddess Inanna (aka, Ishtar);

http://www.white-history.com/hwr7_files/29.jpeg

We also know that the Sumerians were not Semites. the later Akkads, however, were. And so the mistake of calling Sumer Semitic is often made simply because 'Summer-Akkad' and later Babylon were Semitic. The original White Sumerians were incorporated into these, and a general decline in Sumerian genius occurred.

 

That's all I can really speculate at the moment. The Sumerians gave us the flood myth of biblical fame, so we can assume a flood was part of their formation. Perhaps this was a flood on the Tigris-Euphrates plain were their civilization began, or perhaps from a home along the Black sea if they migrated from the North, which is quite likely. The bible also speaks of a time of when there was only one language, which might be the Sumerian language, supposing either the Semitic one was not yet known and neither was the Aryan. But who knows?

 

Here's a website which attempts to argue the Sumerians were fair-haired:

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi39.htm

 

Not fully convinced, but it makes interesting claims about linguistic similarities to a later Indo-european language (Latvian, 5000 years later):

 

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi37.htm

 

Carleton Coon, taken from the Southernist and Mediterraneanist web site of Dienekes Pontikos:

 

http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp/

 

 

The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man of variable stature - as whites go, usually short to medium; his bones are light, but strongly marked for muscle attachments if these muscles have been well developed through use.

 

Ernest Hooton, taken from same web site:

There are two variants of the Classic Mediterranean type - straight-nosed and hook-nosed. The former is the more primitive and the more widely distributed. It extended in prehistoric times along both shores of the Mediterranean, into central, western, and northern Europe and down into the Horn of Africa. Its area of characterization and source of dissemination cannot have been far from the traditional Garden of Eden - Mesopotamia, which archaeologists include in "the Fertile Crescent." There is not much doubt that the eastward extension of straight-nosed Mediterraneans of the Classic type provided the White basis of the early populations in southeastern Asia and Indonesia. They probably were the main carriers of the Aryan language into India at a much later date.

 

Here's a very wierd looking article I found while snoopin around for data on sumerian origins~~

http://www.algonet.se/~hermesat/humans.htm

 

In that it states that there were 223 genes found in man that did not have the required predecessors that ordinarily would have allowed them to trace the evolutionary origin of man. This was entirely unprecedented and cannot be found in any other species, either plant or animal. Is that true ??

 

This picture is used by Eurocentrist to prove that Sumerians in fact had blue eyes:

http://www.white-history.com/hwr7_files/bluesum.jpeg

[Twilight Bark]

This discussion is hereby terminated. Best of enjoyment to you in reading your fairy tales.

TB

 

P.S. You are addressing things that I never said or implied. I have no interest in engaging fanatics that start a verbal diarrhea at the slightest hint of an affront to their racial gods. As for Sumerians being Nordic, the kindest thing I can call that is "crap".

Edited September 29, 2003 by Twilight Bark

[Azat]

Haven't been to Aspen either, but I think we need to re-negotiate our remuneration.

Dudes, how can you go on this trip without Azat? I have never been to Aspen as well. Plus remember I am the chick magnet(well not really, but I guess that gives you a better chance to comfort them when they run away from me.)

 

Don't make me beg, please take me to.

[Teutonic Knight]

This discussion is hereby terminated. Best of enjoyment to you in reading your fairy tales.

TB

 

P.S. You are addressing things that I never said or implied. I have no interest in engaging fanatics that start a verbal diarrhea at the slightest hint of an affront to their racial gods. As for Sumerians being Nordic, the kindest thing I can call that is "crap".

Owned?

At least you'll know that there is evidence to the contrary of your way of thinking. Not trying would simply be intolerable for me.

If you don't agree with the statement that the grass is blue you better provide some edvidence to back up your allegation otherwise stay out of things you know nothing about, hell you can't even properly defend your own hsitory and each response is with hisitation.