History Of The Dashnak Party

[Artsakh]

america hye for a person born and raised in america, you are fairley illiterate because i never asked what america hye was.

go about your business, because this is an armenian forum. it is not a beirut hye forum, it is not a hayastancy forum, it is not a america hye forum, it is not a russian armenian forum, ITS AN ARMENIAN FORUM, and those who try to always tie anything armenian with something foreign are TRAITORS.

 

 

ARPA, I AM ASKING YOU LETS HEAR YOUR OPINION, THEN WE WILL BUILD ON IT AND OTHERS CAN JOIN IN.

Edited September 22, 2003 by Artsakh

[KnightOfArmenia]

Artsakh: although I personally don't like the dialect/geopolitical divisions that exist within our people (and have had "run-ins" with America-Hye many a time), it goes too far to just call people "traitors." Armenians have always had divisions; that is where things like "Sasuntsis," "Zeitountsis," "Jughatsis," and etc. came from. Have you even seen Home's geography? The mountainous landscape is the reason why we have never really had a strong central government (which led to our people being conquered several times, arguably, and led to us surviving as a people despite being a conquered people, arguably).

 

Oh, and America-Hye; I'm a student of Dr. Levon Marashlian, who is one of the most (if not the most) educated and able Armenian scholars in the world today. He was the first to ever go to turkey itself and argue that the Genocide happened (against the likes of that bastard justin mccarthy, as well as others; he was the only one arguing for the Genocide, and many neutral persons gave the "victory," so to speak, to him, despite this). But that still doesn't mean I don't argue with him on points I believe in; likewise, just because MJ is a member of a think tank, doesn't mean someone can't disagree with him (now, calling him a traitor is something else; even though that "Artsakh had no Armenians in it" statement sounds a bit on the quisling side...)

[Sip]

... because this is an armenian forum. it is not a beirut hye forum,  it is not a hayastancy forum, it is not a america hye forum, it is not a russian armenian forum, ITS AN ARMENIAN FORUM, and those who try to always tie anything armenian with something foreign are TRAITORS.

FYI, the server is located in the US. So just by posting here you are tied to something foreign to begin with, whether you want it or not.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Oh, Sip... What would you do if you had a million dollars?

[Sip]

Assuming taxes are paid, I'd pay off my loans, then my parents loans, lift the jeep with a new set of wheels and tires, high output alternator, onboard welder, and air compressor. Whatever is left, I'd donate a few thousand (up to 5% of remainder) to the red cross, the rest I'd split 50/50 between long term bonds and stocks. In terms of stocks, again I'd split things 50/50 between blue chip and other high risk (under valued yet unstable) stocks.

[gamavor]

Someone, please give Sip 1 million $. I like his plan. What if you have 2 million $$

 

As to the Dashnag party - as long as they call each other "unger" they better count me out!

[MadArmo]

Artsakh, What a great handle... I used it on Turkey.com and gave them hell some time ago, Offcourse I got banned by those cowards. My opinion about Tashnags is a fanatical bunch who cost us our first independence ! I think most Armenians feel this way also.

 

Btw, I was a member of A.Y.F. I have to say they were too radical ...

[America-Hye]

Artsakh,

 

TRAITOR? For viewing things from both the perspective of my heritage AND the heritage of my American Protestant "odar" upbringing? I seriously wonder if people like you are unhinged. PURIST, do you think that Armenian culture has not been greatly influence by Arab, Turkish and Soviet mentality. Methinks that you have a problem with America and a problem with Western thought and freedom of belief/association.

[Artsakh]

stepan or seaphan,

 

just by posting i am tied to something foreign???? -NOOOOOO.

 

The jews who work in the white house, are they tied to something foreign?????- noooooo

 

They are working of israel, and for the jews of the world, not for america.

 

Learn from them, lets not use foreign things to change us, lets use foreign things for armenia, and spreading armenianness, not for being infected by others.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for the dashnaks, someone said they " were a fanatical bunch who cost us our 1st independence".

 

Actually, there was nothing finatical about them. They was nothing revoultionary about them.

 

What is so revolutionary about sitting around a table (with the turks and signing over kars and ardahan?) With treaty of alexandrople in 1920

 

What is so revolutionary and finatical about signing the treaty of batum in 1918 after the glorious 3 battles: sardarabad, bash abaran, karakilisia?

 

Revolutionaries and nationalists don't sit around the table with the enemy and let the enemy dictate the terms of armenia's future(especially after the 3 glorious battles).

 

The real nationalist, the real finatical patriot, general andranik, was opposed to dealing with the turks in any manner.

 

In short, nationalism isn't what deestroyed armenia.

 

 

---

Fixed your CAPS problem. Something before was edited by Azat. --Sip

 

Edit as requested - nairi

Edited September 30, 2004 by nairi

[robin]

What is so revolutionary about sitting around a table (with the turks and signing over kars and ardahan?) With treaty of alexandrople in 1920

 

What is so revolutionary and finatical about signing the treaty of batum in 1918 after the glorious 3 battles: sardarabad, bash abaran, karakilisia?

 

 

One needs to go back to the VERY (1886-1896, eg.) beginning to see examples

of the revolutionary Dashnaks.

 

" To a last desperate attempt by Armenian revolutionaries to draw the attention of the world by seizing in Constantinople the European-owned Ottoman Bank in August 1896, the government responded by unleashing wholesale reprisals during which five to six thousand Armenians were killed in the space of three days within sight of the European embassies. "

 

(http://www.armenian-genocide.org/encyclopedia/hamidian.htm)

 

The Dashnaks were in strong contrast to the Armenakan Party - an indigenous party formed

by the citizens of Van.

 

-robin

[MJ]

Dashanks have had nothing to do with the action at the Bank of Ottoman (though they have tried to claim credit for it.) This action was committed by the Hnchaks. Furthermore, in the period 1886-1905, most of the actions have been committed by the Hnchaks. The emergence of Dashanks as an organized structure and prominent factor is attributable to the post-1905 era.

[robin]

Dashanks have had nothing to do with the action at the Bank of Ottoman (though they have tried to claim credit for it.) This action was committed by the Hnchaks. Furthermore, in the period 1886-1905, most of the actions have been committed by the Hnchaks. The emergence of Dashanks as an organized structure and prominent factor is attributable to the post-1905 era.

you must have evidence of this that contradicts most of what I've been reading

recently. Would you share your source/s as I'm trying the understand the history

of these parties and their relationships?

 

thx

[MJ]

Dear Robin,

 

I don't have any sources handy, currently. I have studied these issues some 15 years ago while residing in Yerevan. I would ask you to just trust me on this.

 

It is beyond any question that the action at the Bank Ottoman was organized by Hnchakian Party members, in particular, if my memory does not betray me, by Babgen Suni who was an active member of the Hnchakian Party). There is enough information about it in Armenian literature. You may justly question my comment and ask why cannot I give you one piece of reference if I claim there is ample evidence about the action being committed by the Hnchakians. While I recognize the legitimacy of such potential questioning, I would attribute my inability only to the fact of not having access to the libraries that I have once had - years ago I have donated several hundred books to the libraries of UCLA and University of Michigan. Besides, I could use the resources of the State and University libraries in Yerevan. Now, here in NY, my access to such sources is limited. However, I am sure that with a little research you can find original sources.

 

As far as the relationship between the parties is concerned, it has always been bad - one of competition. Not much has changed since. The only news is that all the parties have ceased to exist (excluding ARF on the territory of the Republic of Armenia - event that would not last long.) The primary reason is that they have not been able to reinvent themselves in the contemporary world and have become merely social organizations of granting each other some ridiculous social status to brag about around their coffee tables while having whisky and cigar.

 

In general, until 1905, ARF has been a relatively healthy force pursuing the goal of liberation of Armenia. However, it has not had a sufficient weight. The dominant party has been the Hnchakian Party, which has operated in a revolutionary mode. By 1905, ARF has abandoned, in essence, the agenda of liberation of Armenia and has betrayed the ideals of its founders, becoming a revolutionary force. On such capacity, it has captured the Hnchakian Party’s clout, which has entered the mode of decay lasting to our days.

 

This is a brief response to your inquiry. Sorry that I could not be more detailed at this time and did not provide references.

Edited September 23, 2003 by MJ

[Artsakh]

dasvi Edited September 24, 2003 by Artsakh

[MosJan]

who ever changed my nick name, thanks i guess i hope i've satisifed arpa.

 

america hye or who ever you are MJ doesn't know anything. he is not a scholar he is a low life who carelessly makes a pass time out of armenian history and politics and to antagonize people for his fun.

be nice and stop the name calling !!!

 

we all know who MJ is and haw much he has don for ARmenians and this forum.

 

 

MOvses

[MJ]

It's ok, MosJan. Give him a chance to grow up a little bit.

 

While there are few factual errors in his last post (especially when it pertains to Andranik), and there is a hint on some mysterious forces (and I know who he means and unfortunately that is the absurd part of his material), in the large picture of things his last post is accurate.

[Arpa]

ARF, Armenian Revolutionary Federation.

HoHiDa, Hay Heghapokhakan Dashnaktsutyun.

Wishful thinking or overconfidence?

Is it wishful thinking or overconfidence when we name some of our institutions American Armenian Assembly (AAA), Armenian National Congress (ANC), Amenayn Hayots Katoghikos, Mets I Tan Kilikio Kathoghokosutyun, or, how about Armenian World Congress as proposed by Ara Abrahamian?

The ARF was designed to be the ultimate Armenian "federation".

Why not?

Is not MY federation better than YOURS?

The ARF, the Hunchakian and Armenakan parties were all formed with one objective in mind, to liberate the nation from oppression and the country from occupation.

All very noble.

How did they proceed to realize this dream?

The Dashnaks, after realizing that they could not convince the others to join the "federation" decided to collaborate with the Young Turks, hoping that when the Ottoman Sultanate and the empire were taken down they would divide the land between themselves and the Young Turks. This was probably promised to them, except that the Dashnaks did not know what damn liars the Turks were then as they are today. I have heard that the Ottoman Bank incident was actually planned by the Young Turks to be executed by the naive scapegoats, and that the Hamidian police knew all about it in advance.

When it comes to Armenian affairs there is always black and the white.

Soviet Armenian sources describe the ARF as "bourgeois nazional" (spelled with a Z to impart the spirit of the appellation), while, below they describe themselves as "Marxist Socialist". Below an excerpt from the URL that follows.

 

The principal founders of the ARF were also Socialists, and Marxist elements are clearly present in the introductory section of the Party's first Program written by Rosdom and entitled "General Theory".3 Yet the aspiration for national independence is also common to all of them, whether as a result of patriotic feelings or well-grounded ideology.4 Moreover, the formulated objectives and corresponding claims are much more modest and realistic, objectively based on the actual needs and the potential of Western Armenians. The first Program of the ARF did not include ambitions of building a socialist order or creating an independent Armenian state detached from the Ottoman Empire.

 

http://www.arf.am/English/history/001history.htm

 

With all this said and done, even if the ARF has been one of the most consistent intitutions in the diaspora it seems like the it also has always been either overconfident or too reliant on imagined allies.

The Ottoman Bank fiasco. This was not only done for the benefit of the Young Turks it was also a planned by the turks to cause a massacre.

 

They try ro create a Caucasian Federation with Georgia and Azerbaijan and don't relent until both of the others declare independence and they are left with no option but to declare independence themselves. This whole process was promoted and encouraged by Turkey to try and stop the southward march of the Russians.

And now that the Red Army is marching south, panic. The Allies are licking thier wounds. It is rumored that emissaries were sent to Turkey to invite them to protect Yerevan from the Red Army. And this only five years after the Genocide. When all fails they sit down with the Turks to sign a treaty at Alexandropol on the very day that the Red Army is sovietizing Armenia.

.........

Fast forward.

1989-90, the Soviet Union is all but gone. Hrair Maroukhian is commuting between Athens and Moscow trying to convince Gorbachev to stick to his guns and not let the "Union" dissolve. Panic? Caught with one's pants down?

Maroukhian is forbidden to land at Zvartnots.

 

How many times must one be "caught with their pants down" to be disqualified as a national political party?

Has the ARF or any so called political party ever sat down and drawn a plan for the next day, the next week, next year, next decade? Never mind the next 100 or 1000 years!

Who plans for us? The Assyrians, the Persians, the Romans, the Byzantians, the Turks, the Russians, the British, the French or the US?

 

Of course, if and when we plan for ourselves and we fail, who can we blame it on?

[MJ]

I know what you are saying, Arpa. But Babgen Suni was Hnachakian - as much as variety of sources (perhaps copying the same inaccurate source) claim that he wa was Dashnaktsakan.

[Arpa]

I know what you are saying, Arpa.  But Babgen Suni was Hnachakian - as much as variety of sources (perhaps copying the same inaccurate source) claim that he wa was Dashnaktsakan. 

Yeah MJ, let's get to the bottom of this fiasco. I thought myths had to be at least a 1000 yeras old.

All my life I have heard as Bank Ottoman being the glorious highlight of the "komiteh".

Look at this ridiculously choreographed ridiculous site and read the words.

 

http://www.cilicia.com/armo_files_music_ba...ankottoman.html

[Armat]

Does it matter which party did it? The real outcome was disastrous regardless who planned it. It is a real pity that Armenians who did it had little or zero understanding about Turkish mentality and consequent massacres that fallowed.

[Armat]

The picture is rather clearer now. There were European educated Armenian revolutionaries who were exposed to freedom, human rights, nationalism in Europe and thought those principles can be forced upon the Turks however we already know that anything that is forced upon the Turks is doomed to backfire then and now. Understanding the culture and overall mentality is crucial in any adventure when real human lives are concerned or for that matter even business ventures.

[MJ]

Armat,

 

In essence, I agree with both of your posts. It really didn’t matter nor the action subject to discussion was something to be proud of – especially make songs about. My comments on who had done it were only of a technical character.

 

Currently, I cannot afford to go into this issue any further. Maybe at some other time we can revisit it.

[Arpa]

That is known as "desperado", de=without, esper=hope. Hopeless/desperate!

It has been said that the drowning will cling to anything that floats even if it is a snake.

Did we invent the so called "suicide bomber" phenomenon?

 

Petros Turian said it so eloquently in his "Zghjum", the day after;

"Yev mahamerdz@ k'ouzeh erku ban,

Nakh kyank@, heto latsogh m'ir vran.

The dying wishes only two things,

First life, (if not) then someone to weep over him".

 

It is obvious that we cannot give him/them life but we do a marvelous job weeping over them. (see URL above)

Why were we so desperate?

Why are so desperate now?

[Boghos]

On the Ottoman Bank issue, Armen Garo´s autobiography is available in Armenian and English. He claims to have been betrayed by most of the people, half didn´t even show up. The result as we well know was a disaster in every single respect.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Woah woah... Artsakh, you're going a little bonkers here. And that is without even touching the anti-Semitic rant.

 

What is so revolutionary about sitting around a table (with the turks and signing over kars and ardahan?) With treaty of alexandrople in 1920

 

What is so revolutionary and finatical about signing the treaty of batum in 1918 after the glorious 3 battles: sardarabad, bash abaran, karakilisia?

 

Revolutionaries and nationalists don't sit around the table with the enemy and let the enemy dictate the terms of armenia's future(especially after the 3 glorious battles).

 

The real nationalist, the real finatical patriot, general andranik, was opposed to dealing with the turks in any manner.

 

He quit the party because the dashnaks were foreign financed(by zeonist jews) traitors bent on destroying armenia.

 

WHAT?! Are you serious?

 

First, it was mostly Dashnaks that FOUGHT in those "three glorious battles." Afterwards, however, the supplies and aid that the Armenian state was supposed to get from the Allies failed to materialize; thus, the Soviet Union from the north and turkey from the west leapt upon the Republic. You do realize that that little thing we call the Genocide had reduced our people to refugees, correct? I don't know what fanciful ideas you have, but war requires weapons, supplies, ammunition (especially for the tactics of the day), all of which require infrastructure (roads, factories, etc). We didn't have any of that.

 

And did you say that the Dashnaks surrendered Kars and Ardahan to the TURKS in 1920? At least read your history before you accuse! The Dashnaks surrendered to the SOVIETS, who then gave the land to the turks. Christ, you're mixing up your accusations! Did you COMPLETELY forget the Russkies in all of this?!