Harut Posted August 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Sip, the funerals here are 'parq', even the Armenian ones. there is the dying, then the funeral.in Armenia, the dead is kept in his/her home for 3 days, put on a table in the middle of the room. then they walk him/her on their shoulders for quite long before putting inside the car, while the funeral band, or duduk is playing at the end of the echelon. not only relative/friends cry, but the entire neighborhood starts crying.that is one horrifying experience to go through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 (edited) I kind of like the process that Armenians embark upon when when losing a loved one - the long funeral - the karassoonk, and then one year later we have another ceremony to commemorate the anniversary & bless the headstone. I think in comparison to most north americans (who try to get it over with - and consequently forget - ASAP) our traditions allow us to deal with our bereavement head-on and face our new reality with the support of friends and family. We go through the loss slowly, deliberately, one step at a time, and our families unite in the process. My friends mother recently passed - everyone came for one day, smothered her (annoyingly) with support and then left. Now she's all left alone, to deal with her loss - no one is around, they've all forgotten. Edit: spelling Edited August 17, 2003 by vava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 (edited) Sip I disagree entirly with you, and I think it is very direspectful from your part to make such a comment. Even elephants, which are not human, when one of theirs die, families comme with each others to mourn the death, some species of monkeys does that as well, and even some scientists believe that daulphins does it. I entirly agree with Vava, the death I think is enough worthy to take this little moment to cry for him or her. Edited August 17, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Actually when a herd of elephants comes accress the remains of deceased elephant, (even if it's just bones) the entire herd mourns. Very bizarre... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Hey, I saw a moneky in the zoo stick his finger up in his rear end and then lick it. Am I supposed to do the same? Although I have to admit I have never seen an elephant do that ... it would be kind of funny ... how in the hell can an elephant reach to his or her rear end anyway? But I digress ... Who am I disrespecting Domino? The dead? That's impossible. The dead are dead. They don't care what you do. All this hooopla and shananigans for a funeral is for the living (as vava said). I think the living should just forget the dead as soon as possible and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 I hate funerals. They are so stupid. The next funeral I'm going to go to will be my own. Just bury the dead and get it over with. What's with the loooooooooooooong ass ceremony and all the halleluya halleluyas? I could not help responding to your comment about the Funerals, which does reflect the American shallowness about things in general that matter. Death as birth is too important events in our lives to dismiss abruptly and specially in death one should and must reflect about one’s spirituality, meaning in life and the deceased person’s sum total value and his or her contribution to this earth.One can definitely say how much any particular cultures values life as how they view death in general. In America elders are endlessly humiliated in dumb ass commercials and left mostly to decay in nursing homes instead of sharing and infusing their valuable hard earned life’s lessons with their families. I still enjoy remembering my grandfather in Yerevan smoking his pipe and sharing his life with us. I missed that a lot. I miss my mother as well…I would never want to get over them as the same way I would not want my kids to get over me quickly as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 I think the living should just forget the dead as soon as possible and move on. Ignoring the monkey - I agree that the 'hoopla' although I could hardly call it that, is for the living - or rather - those who are left behind. BUT I strongly object to dictating, or even suggesting HOW people should or should not deal with their loss. It's personal. If one chooses to mourn by burrowing oneself in the house and not coming outside for forty, or even 365 days - than that is his way of facing his loss. One might choose to party, or go to vegas, or sleep, or cry incessantly. Who are we to sat they should move on as quickly as possible? What I like about Armenian traditions, is that mourners aren't forced into a position (or at least less so than North americans) where they are rushed to feverishly prepare this event - visitation, burial plot, casket, flowers, other funeral arrangements, famliy visits etc. They assure that everyone is taken care of - and then poof! The funeral's over and that's that. They are left holding the pieces. I really don't think there should be any rush to 'forget'. The memory of a loved one can be truly motivating and inspirational. IMO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 I still enjoy remembering my grandfather in Yerevan smoking his pipe and sharing his life with us. I missed that a lot. I miss my mother as well…I would never want to get over them as the same way I would not want my kids to get over me quickly as well. Welcome to the Forum Armat! I find your comment interesting, and I agree that the north american marginalisation of the elderly is a sad state of affairs. In my opinion, I think it's simply about convenience, which makes it that much worse. But what difference would it make that your kids would forget you easily? I don't think that my personal mourning for someone/memory of someone would have any bearing on how I would wish to be remembered. These are two completely unrelated matters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 My friends mother recently passed - everyone came for one day, smothered her (annoyingly) with support and then left. Now she's all left alone, to deal with her loss - no one is around, they've all forgotten. This is what happens in my family. Also with weddings. Two occasions for everyone to get together and act as if they care about each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Vava thanks for welcoming me. I agree my comments were a little broad. I could elaborate more on the mental health aspects of a true (meaning unrushed) grieving and opportunity to examine one’s life on another time. Joseph Campbell the Arthur of “Hero with a Thousand Faces, the four-volume The Masks of God, The Power of Myth” etc elaborates well on the meaning and the ritual significance of death. Check him out. He is great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Who am I disrespecting Domino? The dead? That's impossible. The dead are dead. They don't care what you do. All this hooopla and shananigans for a funeral is for the living (as vava said). I think the living should just forget the dead as soon as possible and move on. Direspecting his or her family, and the memory of this dead person. Sip, all your life is centered on the left side of your brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 The dead are walking around the room with you, only you can not see them. It requires much soul work to be able to see and communicate with them. Keep on good terms with them, as they can in some circumstances affect the lives of the living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Well, I guess my fundamental argument here is about "mourning" and "death". I simply do not regard death in general as a sad event. A sad event is a preventable one. A joyful event is one that can be made to happen. Everything else, are just inevitable events ... stuff that happen whether you want them or not and mourning/celebrating in these cases are simply meaningless. In other words, you mourn failure, you celebrate success, and you live/die with the rest. Now having said that, yes, a "tragic dead", i.e. untimely and caused by an accident, murder, or some other factor (not suicide though) can be considered a saddening event. BUT a natural death is NOT something to be mourned. I just do not agree and do not buy into that type of thinking .... booo hooo hooo ... the guy lived to be 95 and is dead let's all cry and mourn? WTF? I will not comment on how people choose to deal with untimely deaths. That IS their personal choice as that often relates to a "preventable" loss and the loss can often seem very huge to those who are close to the dead. Nairi: LMAO about "act" like they care about each other! I totally agree that a marriage ceremony is mostly "acting" and has very little to do with people's real emotions. Especially in our current glendela-hye multi-million dollar marriages Vava: About memories: I made a mistake about how I phrased "forget" and move on. I meant forget the death in the context of mourning. I totally agree that the memory of the ones that have lived before can be a tremendous source of inspiration in one's life. Armat: About Armenian shallowness ... I am and have been talking as an American in this thread. I think most Armenians would disagree with how I think in this case. America-Hye: Do you really converse with the dead too? I was trying to decipher some symbolism and fancy thought in there but it seems you meant is literally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 The dead are walking around the room with you, only you can not see them. It requires much soul work to be able to see and communicate with them. Keep on good terms with them, as they can in some circumstances affect the lives of the living. hagarag, I've always loved the simple, concise fashion with which post; 'stirring the pot' with no more than three sentences! LOL! But when you say communicate, do you mean: a la John Edwards communicate - or have you found another method to bridge the two worlds? I'm not toos ure what to think, but please, do tell us more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Sip, It has been my experience that the majority of the funerals I have been to fall into the 'tragic' category, more so than the 'lead a long, fruitful life, and now it's time' category. At least in my family. But IMO there's sadness in saying goodbye. Whether it's preventable or not. Many things are inevitable, but I personally cannot claim to be made of such steel that my emotions remain un-moved simply because something is natural, or preventable, or not. Yes, I have to live/die with it - but I do react to it. And yes, I agree that on some occasions in fact, a funeral can become a celebration of lives lived, as opposed to a sad event. My grandfather, after being orphaned during the AG, and subsequently struggling to educate himself, established a large family and was surrounded by his children, grand-children and great-grandchildren when he passed away. Yes, it was sad to see him go - but he had lived a full life - and we were happy his suffering was over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Sip, It has been my experience that the majority of the funerals I have been to fall into the 'tragic' category, more so than the 'lead a long, fruitful life, and now it's time' category. At least in my family. But IMO there's sadness in saying goodbye.Going back to funerals as the "public event" ... after thinking and rethinking about this just now, I realize that most of my dislike for the event is most likely due to the extremely religious nature of the funerals I have been to (i.e. Armenian). I think it's more a side effect of my dislike of religeous shows in general than the act of grieving for the dead. This is complicated by the fact that that act of grieving for the dead often seems to revolve around wheeling and dealing with god, in forms of prayer (i.e. God you did this and now I expect you do this this and this after this) which REALLY ticks me off... and of course not too many things tick me off so this says a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 This all started when I was a small child and my father's dead sister "visited" my young brother and I in the middle of the night (we shared a room, my brother and I). She had died tragically at a young age, while carrying her first child. The Genocide did not end my friends in 1915 or 1918. It's repercussions influenced events 20 years in the future, and are felt even today. In my youth, I many premonitions that later came true. This runs in my family.In the last few years I have been "visited." The communication is not verbal, but telepathic. I do not know if John Edward's communication "devices" are diffreent than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 That is a stunning revelation! I am speechless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Vava, It is not uncommon. A gentleman surnamed Sherman conducted experiments for the US government where he was able to telepathically communicate messages with a man in the South Pole, while he was in the US. Read up on this and make your own conclusions. However, unless you have experienced these things yourself, you will never be a complete believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 In my youth, I many premonitions that later came true. This runs in my family. In the last few years I have been "visited." The communication is not verbal, but telepathic. I do not know if John Edward's communication "devices" are diffreent than mine. I'm afraid to assert this, if only because I don't want to think I'm crazy. That's the only thing that scares the hell out of me about the dead: being visited. I like to think it's my imagination, even though the signs are too obvious at times. I haven't been able to come to terms with it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 There is nothing to fear. Very few of these souls are malevolent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 But how do you know for sure that it's the dead and not just your mind playing tricks on you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Nairi, I will reply to you later today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Well, hagarag, I hope you don't take this personally but even after I'm dead, I would probably prefer to go visit nairi Wow ... who knew being dead could be so much fun ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Nairi, I will reply to you later today. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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