MJ Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 What? Denial? After all the work that you have done to prove the facts they still can deny? What a bizarre situation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 (edited) The essence of Armenian modern thought or is it traditional thought, TB ?Hi Boghos,I didn't think about labeling the vintage of my thoughts. I guess they are "my" thoughts as of August 2003. The part on "forgiveness" could be labeled "liberal", as in "let them be".The part on "land versus people", could be labeled "quintessentially Armenian" (i.e. continues to this day for most Armenians, regardless of professed priorities to the contrary).The part on "hypocrisy" could be labeled "tongue-in-cheek", with allusions to pre-1915 Istanbul and Tiflis (and wherever else) intelligentsia. But it does contain an expression of the hope that windbags (you know, people that include, among others, me) are least harmful when comfortably far away and irrelevant. And I was also serious in observing that "successful" states are almost universally founded on a pile of hypocrisy, lies, distortions, and often plain evil deeds. And the last sentence is perhaps a non-Armenian strain of thought, expressing that I do not qualify to say or do much on the subject of "statehood", or "what's good for the nation", which, as a minimum, requires a gargantuan ability to ignore intellectual and moral inconsistencies, if nowhere else then in one's own life and interactions. Not that anyone should care.Take care. Edited your quotes. /nairi Edited August 28, 2003 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Yes I know. But I fail to understand, what is really forgivness for me? And who I am to have the right to forgive or not forgive, in something that I was neither the victim nor the aggressor. And even if I would take that right, what would it change if I forgive or not? I mean, how do you measure forgivness in such a situation? Is it a feeling? is it measured by ones action? How am I supposed to know if I have forgiven? I mean, if I do not feel the desire of vengence, does that mean I have forgiven? Or those that take more than that? I know that I do not forgive the Turks for their denial, because this is present, and it is a direct feeling, and I feel I do not forgive them their denial. But I do not have any idea of if I have forgiven them or not the genocide, or if this question could even be asked, I have no idea of what kind of feeling should I have in order to say that I forgive or not. Oh come on Domino. You know what MJ means. Perhaps he could have used a better term for what he was trying to convey, but the idea is clear: Do not give control of your thoughts, plans and future direction to the very people that you are angry at. "Forgive" is too strong a word for what he seems to be really saying. "Get on with the important stuff, and don't propagate the emotional damage". I couldn't agree more. But I think an explicit act of forgiving is entirely unnecessary. Refusal to be traumatized by it (i.e. putting a certain emotional "distance") is more like it. Perhaps what MJ is implying is that most people cannot put that "distance" without going through an act of "forgiving". That may be right. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Hello TB, When I read you I am reminded of the fact that there is order in chaos. A thought that particularly pleases me. As to analyzing Armenian history and such I think that it would be quite useful in many instances to at least be familiar with the different schools of thought that make that job easier if hardly precise. But precision is something that we cannot possibly achieve and in fact should not even aim at. For it is an illusion a forever moving target. But I digress. Armenians might be better suited for evolution than for revolution, what is probably a blessing, hence there is really very little I can or should say. Focusing on micro issues might be not worthy of leaders and other important and self-important people but it makes more sense in my mind. Please assemble above. take care, B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 if the question is solely about the Genocide, then i, personally, don't give a damn whether Turkey, US, or the rest would recoginze it properely or not. and why should i? it's not going to change my perception of Armenians, Turks, Americans, or the rest. nor is it going to change the way i, as an Armanian, show my face in the public. nor is it going to make any physical or moral changes for Armenians (no, i don't believe that it will have any positive moral effect on Armenians)i know the history.and even if i don't, then what my great-grandparents went through are enough for me to lay a flower for them and the rest of the victims on that one day of commemoration. many may disagree with me... but what the heck... no one has agreed with me on anything recently anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Harut jan, if there's one thing I agree with you, it's the fact that you have the right to have and voice your own opinion. Everyone has their own perception of what should and should not happen, and what will and will not happen. Of course the genocide is an emotional issue for many, and they have the right to deal with those emotions however they wish to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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