River Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Outrageous !As reported by Carissa Vanitzian-Armenian News Network- on Groong.com .Mormons proxy-baptize, secretly, Armenian Saints, Genocide victims and notable deceased Armenians. "Proxy baptism is a caring expression of faith that provides deceased persons the opportunity to accept or reject what we believe to be a blessing offered in their behalf" said Dale Bills, Mormon Church Spokesman. "Our faith is firm that individual ability to choose continues beyond the grave. Again, nothing os forced on anyone. Since no offense is intended, we hope none will be taken." They have proxy-baptised Komitas Vartabed, William Saroyan, Sayat Nove etc.In 1995 the Mormon Church was asked to remove all Holocaust Victims' names from their International Genealogical Index which contains some 400 million names. They still have kept a few hundred (?) names of the Holocaust victims and they're asked by the Jewish community to erase those names from their database.Imagine the audacity of it all ! It is contested by the Armenian Church and should be pursued. It is a sacrilege. An insult to the memory of the victims. Nobody has the right to baptize any human being, alive or dead, without the prior approval of the individual- of course we can only do that upon the express wishes of the 'alive' person and not a 'dead' person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Outrageous !As reported by Carissa Vanitzian-Armenian News Network- on Groong.com .Mormons proxy-baptize, secretly, Armenian Saints, Genocide victims and notable deceased Armenians. "Proxy baptism is a caring expression of faith that provides deceased persons the opportunity to accept or reject what we believe to be a blessing offered in their behalf" said Dale Bills, Mormon Church Spokesman. "Our faith is firm that individual ability to choose continues beyond the grave. Again, nothing os forced on anyone. Since no offense is intended, we hope none will be taken." They have proxy-baptised Komitas Vartabed, William Saroyan, Sayat Nove etc.In 1995 the Mormon Church was asked to remove all Holocaust Victims' names from their International Genealogical Index which contains some 400 million names. They still have kept a few hundred (?) names of the Holocaust victims and they're asked by the Jewish community to erase those names from their database.Imagine the audacity of it all ! It is contested by the Armenian Church and should be pursued. It is a sacrilege. An insult to the memory of the victims. Nobody has the right to baptize any human being, alive or dead, without the prior approval of the individual- of course we can only do that upon the express wishes of the 'alive' person and not a 'dead' person. so what's the 'insult'? in all this? i'm really curious!!! aren't they trying to do something good? why the rage? i don't really think about specific religious rituals too often to state an opinion...trying to gather facts...thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Outrageous !......Nobody has the right to baptize any human being, alive or dead, without the prior approval of the individual- of course we can only do that upon the express wishes of the 'alive' person and not a 'dead' person. Barev River, & Welcome to the forum.... I do understand your point, however I don't really don't think it's such a big deal.... besides, (and I know I'm being a little finicky here) - but did you consent to your baptism? I know I didn't... most of us are baptised (well, christened, or whatever the term may be...) but almost all as children, and as such, we didn't grant our 'individual approval'. So I would say that unless you feel that the baptism of children infringes their rights.... well, it really doesn't make much of a difference whether the Mormons Proxy-baptise anyone, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Posted April 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 To Hyebruin,The insult is to the Armenian Church- these proxy baptisms took place without the prior knowledge and approval of the Arm. Church. The implication is stealing members from one church into another, fabricating historic documents. It's not just a simple listing of genealogy, it's theft and Disrespectful for those who were massacred for the very fact that they were Armenian and Christian. I find it an infringement of my rights as an individual when i have accepted, as an adult, to remain within the perimeters of the Armenian Church, to have somebody steal me away from where i have felt comfortable to somewhere i have never thought of 'consenting' to be part of. If I had veered my alleigance, wilfully and as a conscientious independent person to become a member of the Mormon Church then THAT' S FINE. But to take upon oneself to baptize the very pillars of our Church like St Gregory The Illuminator, St. Vartan, Krikor Naregatsi, Mesrob Mashdotz, Nerses Shenorhali and 'appropriate' them into the Mormon Faith is demeaning, immoral (theft),, unlawful. What evidence is there that these dead persons have communicated 'willingness' and 'acceptance' to such acts. To add insult to injury, WHAT RIGHT do they have to include Genocide victims into their listing- the evidence is there that they want to show a registry of the highest number of membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Posted April 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 Hi Vava,Thanks for the welcome you extended , this is a good forum and the only Armenian one i participate.I see your point where you say 'did you consent to your baptism ....didn't grant our individual approval..' You are correct; i did not consent to my baptism but the very fact that i stayed with the Armenian Church is because i have decided to stay there and be part of it. I am very much interested in learning about and understanding the philosophy etc. of other religions be it Buddhist, Islam, Judaism , Baha'i.......I have the choice, at my age , to wilfuly be part of another church. What was determined for me as a child can be opted out and another route be followed. I have the right as a conscientious (sp. ?) adult to choose where to go. I understand your viewpoint but i think what the Mormons are trying to do has got ulterior motives which i explained in the post-reply to Hyebruin. It is also immoral what their doing- their aim is to fill in the reistry so that they'll claim the highest membership. Imagine other religious groups doing this- Moslems claiming Christians as their members; Buddhists claiming....Chaotic. Where's the sacrilege of respecting members of other denominations. Why disturb the 'eternal peace' of those who are dead ? Why step into another person's domain and disturb what was established ? I don't think our church sits down and contemplates to 'steal members from other denominations' ? I certainly do not think it is correct what has happened. Tnx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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