Rediscovering the New Armenian Realities

[Guest]

Introduction

 

I have been thinking for long time on the sad state of the psychological and behavioral affairs observable on our national scene. The online events of the last few days somewhat triggered summarization of some of my thoughts. I think there is something really disturbing, and things don’t look very promising on several fronts, unless a coherent effort to educate and shape our young generation is put forward.

 

Once I was advised by a Forum member to work with each young man, one at a time. But I find it impossible. How do you deal with the flow of different people, one at a time? Especially that not all of them are equipped with basic decency. With all the good and wise men and women in this forum, we have jerks, we have cowards, we have mentally sick men, we have criminals, we have men hating themselves and looking for an outlet, and we have men who are in love with themselves. We also have mentally sick jerks, who are rejected by their own, and find that this is the most tolerant and convenient outlet for them to release their hatred. But there are also confused kids in and out of this Forum. They may occasionally express out-of-the-line opinions, but they have a good chance to grow up as decent people. They just need guidance.

 

Rather than picking up or continuing the nonsense arguments, and exchanging insults, I felt that I would serve the Forum better if I can provide my reaction and express my concerns in a format that I am more comfortable and, perhaps, more efficient with.

 

I have been away from Armenia for almost 10 years. Prior to joining this forum, for the last few years, I had been totally isolated from the Armenian reality, and had been living a very private life, building my carrier, growing my children, and providing for my family.

 

I discovered this Forum by an accident, and started to read some of the older messages. My impressions were contradictory. I found several quality postings, originating from few interesting people, but I also found a bunch of incoherent manifestations of ignorant “machoism,” combined with annoying and condescending pseudo-intellectualism of some others. Later I discovered that many quality-Armenians visit this forum, read some of the miserable postings and leave, so that not to get messed up. I also found that some people always read the postings, but never post, or post very rarely. I also have no doubts that there are other more formal and silent observers of this Forum. After being in this Forum for almost three months, there are several observations I have made, and will try to share them with you in as well thought-out manner as my patience and energy may allow.

 

Allegedly, we are an old nation. But it is not clear to me that we can claim we are the same nation compared with our distant ancestors. It seems to me that every few generations, we have been uprooted, interrupted, migrated, mixed, filtered out, mixed again. This has taken place on and on. Every few generations, we have been basically eliminated, and then have started over and over. Seems like we do really lack continuity. When we lack continuity, this implies we lack aggregate experience and wisdom. This means that we just cross some initial 100 miles along the lines of the development of our national self-consciousness, and than, after the next interruption, we start from zero, and cross the same 100 miles, without being able to aggregate these miles. It is my hope and deep conviction that the Republic of Armenia may provide us with the desired framework of continuity. But it’s not automatic. It requires concerted efforts on a state level. Our national segmentation throughout time and space has profound implications on our national psychology and, moreover, the psyche. Many of these implications may be observed in this Forum.

 

My generation, as well as some older ones, have grown up and gotten psychologically established in a secure, stable, friendly, nurturing and loving environment. The competition has been foreign to us while growing up. Things are much different for the current generation. They grow up under the circumstances of tremendous insecurity, brutal competition, lack of guidance, deteriorating social conditions, decaying moral leadership, dissipating cultural climate, frequent negligence of their parents due to whatever reasons, and so on. As a result, our national self-consciousness is being transferred to our young people in a fragmented, incomplete, distorted, arbitrary and purposeless manner.

 

Our nation is polarized. There is no one single axis along which our nation is polarized, however. This polarization is not resulted from the lack of ideas but from the lack of leadership and guidance.

 

 

1. Polarization along the genders

 

Traditionally, if 3-4 generations are enough to claim tradition whatsoever, Armenian families, at least on the terrain of the modern Republic of Armenia have been very robust, close, inspiring and loving social units. From the very onset, men have tightly controlled these families. But this is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding. While, by in large, men have taken the responsibility for providing for the family, the dominant role in the families has belonged to the women. Women have been the backbone of the families. They have been that critical neck of the body of the family upon which the head had been placed. Wives and mothers in families have been cultivated to levels of queens, sisters have been cherished equally. Even the most ignorant and disrespectful to women Armenian men will melt when thinking of their mothers and sisters.

 

In our Forum, Armenian men have been almost demonized as abusers in their families. They have been described as men, who lock their wives in their kitchens, and go out to “fool around.” I am not going to dispute the fairness of this allegation, but I am going to dispute its validity.

 

First, I have to point that the men, who have elevated their mothers to a level of sainthood, cannot have such attitude towards their wives, because if nothing else, their wives are the mothers of their children and, if anything, the mutual bond between the parents and the children in traditional Armenian families has been very strong. Armenian men in Armenia have always been loving husbands and loving fathers. The effect of the opposite, unfounded allegations is nothing else but back stubbing to our nation. These allegations are not reflective of the reality-in-large, but are mere manifestations of fading trust between the young men and women of our days.

 

What is important, I think, is to understand the sources of the above mentioned mistrust, so that to be able to work on its elimination.

 

Basically, it has to be also understood that this argument, by in large, is not between the wives and the husbands in Armenian families, but it is between the single Armenian men and the single Armenian women. Both are scared of the perspective of a failed marriage, which is more real in an environment of a society transiting from a patriarchal and traditional rule to a free society based on competition.

 

The very idea of competition on the stage of marriage is foreign to our reality.

 

One of the hottest topics along these lines has been the abstinence of our young girls. I have admitted in the past that this is the ideal condition of a girl. Where does this expectation come from? From the Christian moral, obviously. But the Christianity doesn’t impose a separate set of values on women, and another one on men. It has the same expectation from both of them and, if anything, it teaches us equality.

 

Now, there have been two camps of ideologists – those who claim the men should give up their expectations of virginity from their wives, and those who argue “over my dead body.” Let’s look at both of them.

 

What is wrong with the expectation of virginity? Why does it sound so outrageous to some? Who has the right to impose on a man to marry a non-virgin wife? Who has the right to tell somebody else who should he (or she) marry? Why should as a matter of principle, the expectation of virginity be a manifestation of a cavemenship? If this is a cavemanship, than the Apostle Paul, and the whole Pleiad of the Christina Saints were cavemen. Then our entire Christian culture is built on cavemenship. And how could our men be cavemen, without their wives and sisters and daughters being the same? If somebody thinks that the virginity has no value, or is wrong, what is the problem? Who holds your hands? Who can forbid you to do whatever you want to do? Why do you have to ask the acceptance of it by the others? Why does the opinion of the others mater? Why should you convince somebody in the correctness of your perception, and catgorize him or her with labels, that you would not enjoy receiving? Why are you so insecure in that capacity that you need to do it only with the rest of the world justifying it? If you are sure there is no problem with it, go on, and don’t argue with others.

 

I understand, the virginity is the greatest gift of a young girl. It is the greatest gift, at least in principle, that she delivers to her future husband. Is it easy to be or stay virgin for prolonged times? Well, I can make an educated guess that it is incredibly hard, and the girl has to go through a lot of hardship, and be able to avoid a lot of temptations to preserve her condition. Why does she have to go through it? For the sake of delivering it to whom? To the Hoover High School student browsing aimlessly on the streets of Glendale, or for the camel stooped at the corner of Baghramyan and Mashtots Streets in Yerevan? If the generic Armenian guy wants to receive the gift of virginity from the generic Armenian girl, doesn’t he have to deserve it? I am not trying to imply that any of the single guys in this Forum don’t deserve it. We are not discussing individual profiles, here. I am talking about the entire nation. If men want to receive that gift, they have to earn it.

 

On the other hand, what is wrong with a girl, if she has not or has not been able to preserve her original condition? Is she any less moral, then the others? Is she any less pure than the others? Why should she take all the sacrifices? And who is the judge? Why can young men be allowed to satisfy their natural urges, but not the women? Is women’s physiology any different than men’s, as far as this issue is concerned? Why can it be OK to mate with a girl who currently has multiple partners, and not to have the feeling of impurity, but to have this feeling if it turns out that one’s future wife has had a relationship in the past, however limited? Is it because of the fear of coming across with the guy that might’ve had the alleged relationship with her? Is it the fear of competition? Is it the fear of being less enjoyable than the other guy? Is it the fear of other guys talking about the condition of your wife? What is the real issue? (When I was growing up, I was taught that you never talk about your personal relationships with women, nor brag about your “successes.” I have been taught that it is very low-down action to make a personal relationship public.)

 

Is the rejection of the virginity manifestation of the open mindedness, or does the open mindedness imply rejection of virginity? Can’t a very open minded girl be virgin? Or can’t a non-virgin girl be conservative? I’ll just ask the questions, let the interested reader think on the answers for himself/herself.

 

Should we tolerate ideologization of the subject of virginity? Shouldn’t we leave it as a personal category, and give everyone the right to make the choices that he/she pleases? Shouldn’t we let the life settle this issue itself?

 

Are girls who are not in their original condition limited with their choices of marriage? To the best of my understanding, they always find an adequate husband, and most frequently, better husbands than the others. Do you know any girl who has not been able to get married because of the absence of virginity? What is the implication of the categorical and mass rejection of the non-virginity in the Armenian scene, if it is the natural course of the development of the society? Nothing promising for the Armenian men, I should say, and for the Armenian nation, in general. Do you think the Armenian men can be the winners of this dispute? I am sure that if this is the course of the events, and if this is a contest, the Armenian women will not be the losers.

 

Why do our men feel so attracted to the “Russian” women? For one thing, they are attractive, and more importantly, in good shape, as a rule. Cannot Armenian girls be the same? Why not? Why should Armenian girls feel threatened by the Russian girls? Is it because they are too easy? I don’t think this is the sole reason. The Russian girls, or more exactly the ones, who are widely available, are not that easy. There is a lot of competition for them, too. Each man gets the type of “Russian” women he can win. On the other hand, the northern men are very attracted to the Armenian women, if they are in good shape. Just be in a good shape. What’s the problem? Requires work? So what? It is a fact that, in general, the metabolism of the southern women is slower then of their northern kin. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, it is more indicative of femininity. It just implies that the Armenian women have to be more disciplined. It also implies that Armenian men can enjoy either “dolma” and “khorovats,” or slim and slender wives. Isn’t everything interrelated?

 

Another hot topic has been marrying foreigners. I don’t know what is wrong with it. One can say that it doesn’t serve the purpose of national preservation. I would disagree with this. I have seen numbers of young blond kids in Michigan, with last names like Smith, Gallagher, etc., reciting Armenian poetry in Armenian Sunday Schools. I don’t think that the marriage itself has much to do with the national preservation, because it may be just preserving the culture of “dolma” and “kiufta.” I have also expressed an opinion in the past that the national preservation is not a value on its own, if it has no purpose. I think, the type of preservation we are talking about in our Forum has no purpose.

 

So dear young men and women, be prepared for broad competition from both sides. The entire free society is based on competition, and not on patriarchal structures. If you want to win, just become the winner! Nobody would deliver a win to you for granted. There is no mercy in the free world.

 

Finally, to brush of the occasional allegations, I have to say that the Western societies aren’t any less moral than the traditional Armenian society. The morality is compounded from a variety of things. And the factual virginity is the least of the criterion of the morality. I have been living in the US for quite some time, now. I admire the morality of the Americans. I wish that our free Armenian nation could be on the same level of morality as the Americans are. Explaining the ongoing trends in Armenia by the Westernisation means not understanding the drivers of the logic of the internal national evolution.

 

(Topics on Genocide, National Identity, Armenian-Turkish Dialog, Diaspora vs. Hayastan, etc., coming.)

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 19, 2000).]

[Guest]

MJ,

 

I think some of that was very nicely put. Another thing I thought was very nice was that you told Gayanne me and Sulamita was that you thought were were very smart. I feel as if it is nice to be appreciated and that people sometimes think this type of praise but don't bother to share it with anyone else.

 

I enjoyed reading that, but I cant help but tho this you have used the phrase "There are some confused kids drifting on and off this Forum" "annoying and condesending psuedo-innetellectualism" And I feel that is very ambiguious to say "some on this from say/do this/that" and than not to name names! I feel as if it is not fair on us when you do that. If some of that is at me, dont worry, I can take it, I'm a big girl now! I would like to hear your opinions and ideas.

[Guest]

Kazza,

 

Don't worry. None of it is at you. By the way, I had just forgotten to add Nvard to the same list. Just that she had been very passive lately.

 

I have to regretfully and respectfully deny your request to personalize and "open the brackets."

 

I will post further thoughts as my time allows.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Kazza,

Don't worry. None of it is at you.

---

Breathe/heave sigh of releif! I was hoping so..

Mabye another day you take me on the offer of further discussion? Mabye? Only if you want anyway!

[Guest]

MJ in the classics words of a Michael Jackson song "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at YOURSELF and make a change!"

[Guest]

Good grief!! Did I open a can of worms or did I open a can of worms by joining this forum?! On one hand, I'm glad. Raising awareness about these types of issues was one of the reasons for my joining. On the other hand, some of these discussions have been somewhat emotionally taxing on me, to the point where I've considered long and short "vacations" from the forum. Martin, I can't tell you how much I value your participation here. However, it's worth noting that you're probably one of the more "secure" people on this forum, the one with the most stable life (of course we know next to nothing about your life), and the least number of "issues". And I think where you are in life right now necessitates that you be a passive observer on at least some of these topics, which in turn, makes you take on the role of "distinguished professor" as I've termed you, because you have the least at stake in some of these discussions.

 

That said, let me attempt to address some of the questions you've raised. Attempt is the key word here.

 

"I think there is something really disturbing, and things don’t look very promising on several fronts, unless a coherent effort to educate and shape our young generation is put forward." I agree. I've often spoken about the need to do just that, educate. We need Armenian professionals from a variety of fields to come together in this effort: teachers, psychologists, social workers, doctors, police officers, civil servants. Most importantly we desperately need role models: someone that we can look up to as kids (other than our parents) and say: I want to be just like him/her. I want to be THAT.

 

You're right; we have a number of different psychological profiles on the forum. I'm sure a tenured psychologist would have a field day with us all, myself included. They just need guidance, you say. What's considered good guidance? There are as many opinions on good guidance as there are people. I think to aim for "good guidance" and leave it at that is impossible. I believe part of guiding anyone along a certain path is giving them enough exposure to different viewpoints. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much, it gives us just that, different viewpoints. And you know, I think even some of the most rudely phrased opinions have a place in this forum. After all, what's this forum if not a solid representation of real life?

 

"Later I discovered that many quality Armenians visit this forum, read some f the miserable postings and leave, so that not to get messed up." Their loss. You can't grow as a person without getting "messed up". Some emotional turmoil is necessary. Same applies to the passive/silent observers.

 

"Seems like we do really lack continuity". I disagree. If anything, we have too much continuity and not enough room for progress. Don't get me wrong: I love some of that continuity, I'm very proud of my heritage. I just wish there was more room to breathe.

 

"Our national segmentation throughout time

and space has profound implications on our national psychology and, moreover, the psyche. Many of these implications may be observed in this Forum." What you find on this forum is life. We could have been any other ancient race (Assyrian, Jewish, anything) and still have had to face the same challenges.

 

"The competition has been foreign to us while growing up. Things are much different for the current generation. They grow up under the

circumstances of tremendous insecurity, brutal competition, lack of guidance, deteriorating social conditions, decaying moral leadership, dissipating cultural

climate, frequent negligence of their parents due to whatever reasons, and so on. As a result, our national self-consciousness is being transferred to our young people in a fragmented, incomplete, distorted, arbitrary and purposeless manner.f" Agreed! As I've stated before, there's a huge need for research and dissemination of information in this area. If no one undertakes this effort by the time I've established myself professionally, I will. Promise.

 

"Armenian men in Armenia have always been

loving husbands and loving fathers. The effect of the opposite, unfounded allegations is nothing else but back stubbing to our nation. These allegations are not reflective of the reality-in-large, but are mere manifestations of fading trust between the young men and women of our days." I think this is a good enough example of what I mentioned earlier, your distance from these issues, and believe me, it's a distance I envy. These are not unfounded allegations. Rampant adultery and domestic abuse are not "unfounded allegations", and that's only the most painful tip of the iceberg. Exposing these and similar conditions is not "back stabbing to our nation". It's an attempt to address our collective national consciousness, an attempt to rid our collective psyche of these disgraceful elements, an attemt to instill the values of equality and mutual respect in the hearts and minds of our teenagers. It's not back stabbing, Martin. Do you propose we keep quiet? That we maintain the shroud of silence that for generations has plagued our nation? It's because we've kept quiet for so long that we now find ourselves in this miserable situation. It's precisely because communication has been lacking between our men and our women, precisely because for centuries each of us has crept along that harrowed path, afraid of rupture, afraid of "backstabbing", afraid of instability, afraid of change that our young men and young women are so hopelessly lost today. The last thing we need is continued silence. I say let's speak up and communicate and perhaps together we can heal our wounds.

 

You're right when claiming that we're scared at the perspective of a failed marriage. I, for one, am horrified. I realize that it's going much, much more difficult for me in a marriage to attain that strength, that committment to each other that my parents have together. I'm not alone in this. And sadly, men are NOT the only ones to be blamed for this sad state of affairs, women are just as much at fault.

 

" If somebody thinks that the virginity has no value, or is wrong, what is the problem? Who holds your hands? Who can forbid you to do whatever you want to do? Why do you have to ask the acceptance of it by the others? Why does the opinion of the others mater? Why should you convince somebody in the correctness of your perception, and catgorize him or her with labels, that you would not enjoy receiving? Why are you so insecure in that capacity that you need to do it only with the rest of the world justifying it? If you are sure there is no problem with it, go on, and don’t argue with others."

 

Lol, is it me or was that aimed at me?...lol

Even if it wasn't, I can understand why it may appear to some that THAT's exactly what I'm doing. Simply put, I'm not. My motives for bringing this up on the forum are very, very different. Let me tell you a little story as an answer to all those doubting my motives. As a child, because my parents worked and I seemed to be picking up all sorts of infections at kindergarten, mom and dad decided it'd be best if grandma took care of me during the day. My grandma was a dressmaker to the upper crust. One of her clients was a lovely, affectionate young girl, probably in her early 20s. She seemed to require my grandma's services quite a bit; she liked to dress well. Then we didn't see her for quite a while. When my grandma enquired after her, another client of hers told her this: the girl was raped, her parents disowned her, her guy dumped her, the girl committed suicide by jumping off the Kievyan bridge. As god is my witness, I'm not exaggerating. That lovely creature killed herself because armenians weren't prepared to deal with a young girl who wasn't a virgin. Pause and think on that for a minute. After all these years, that story never left me. That, ladies and gentlemen, is my motive. This isn't about me, believe me. It's about the unfairness of the stigma, it's about the need our society feels to ostracize girls who are not virgins, it's about our humaneness as a nation. That's what this is all about. I'm sorry some of you don't see that.

 

"I understand, the virginity is the greatest gift of a young girl. It is the greatest

gift, at least in principle, that she delivers to her future husband....For the sake of delivering it to whom?...If men

want to receive that gift, they have to earn it." Gift??? No, Martin, you're mistaken. Our love and devotion is our gift to our men, THAT's what they have to earn. This whole concept of virginity as a gift is a conceptual construction penned by the men in this society and the result of centuries of the brainwashing of women into accepting this premise. Women are no longer a part of a package of gifts, gentlemen. It's time to accept that.

 

"Can’t a very open minded girl be virgin? Or can’t a non-virgin girl be conservative?" We all know in both cases the answer is "yes, she can".

 

"Should we tolerate ideologization of the subject of virginity?....Shouldn’t we let the life settle this issue itself?" My question to you is: how many other girls need to jump off the Kievyan bridge before it's time to make this issue public, before it's time to talk about it??? How many?

 

"Are girls who are not in their original condition limited with their choices of

marriage?" Yes and no. Lol, just trust me on this one, I come from the front lines. Yes if your aim is to blend in with the traditional crowd, no if your aim is to blend in with the unconventional crowd.

 

"Do you think the Armenian men can be the winners of this dispute? I am sure that if this is the course of the events, and if this is a contest, the Armenian women will not be the losers." Lol, even I am not that optimistic. Historically speaking, armenian women have lost this one and will continue to do so until they dare to speak up.

 

"Why do our men feel so attracted to the “Russian” women? For one thing, they are attractive, and more importantly, in good shape, as a rule. Cannot Armenian girls be the same? Why not? Why should Armenian girls feel threatened by the Russian girls?" This is such "male" mentality. First of all, I for one do not feel threatened by Russian girls. It's safe to say most Armenian girls don't feel threatened by Russian girls. We find the double standard involved extremely frustrating. Why is it that an armenian girl has to be confined to the four walls of her father's house during the best years of her life when an armenian guy can sleep with a different russian girl every night and be called a "man" for it? That's the whole thing about Russian girls. There's no insecurity, just frustration. Also, you've succeeded in making out of this an issue about an armenian woman's alleged inadequacy; armenian girls aren't thin enough (that was the "male" thing about it). How is it an armenian girl's fault if an armenian guy chooses to prefer a russian girl? It's similar to saying "the guy is justified in cheating because the wife wasn't putting out often enough". I think I've made my point.

 

"Another hot topic has been marrying foreigners. I don’t know what is wrong with it." Only one thing: the completely confused psychological state and lifelong struggle of the child that is the product of such a mixed marriage.

 

I will feel free to selectively dissect your other entries similarly. Feel free to selectively dissect mine

[Guest]

I thought I had posted two more comments, but somehow, they got lost. Here is what I was saying.

 

1. It is not the lose of the people visiting the Forum and not willing to get "messed up". It is the lose of the Forum, because it could learn a lot from them;

 

2. About being confused about the identity, because of the multiple heritages. My wife, and subsequently my kids are of multiple heritage. I can't trace even an element of confusion or drama. Also, a lot of my American friends have 5-6 or more mixed heritages. Have never observed any confusion nor insecurity.

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 20, 2000).]

[Guest]

Sorry for the editorial mess. The following posting was supposed to be the first.

_____________________________________________

 

Gayane, Let me partially dissect it.

 

I think we have already had this conversation about your motives or the lack of your “motives to open a can of warms,” and I have replied to you, and have reiterated it at different occasions. Why are we starting it over? Weren’t you satisfied with my answers and assurances?

 

You are right in that none of these are my personal issues, and that’s why, at least in my view, I am trying to bring impartiality into this mess that pops up in our Forum every now and then.

 

Gayane, there is no continuity in our nation, whatsoever. However, I hope that this is the time that it may start. Let me just claim again that your heritage, which you may rightly be proud of, doesn’t go beyond 3-4 generations. It means about 100 years. It is a very little time for claiming continuity.

 

I know that this Forum is reflective of the real life. But it doesn’t mean that we have to tolerate some aspects of that reality, regardless of how tolerant we may be in our personal lives.

 

My alleged distance today has nothing to do with my recognition of the unfoundedness of your allegations about Armenia. I know very little perhaps on today’s Southern Californian Armenian community (though I know some). My conclusions are based on my life experience while in Armenia. I have moved to the US at the age of almost 30, while you have moved here at the age of 12, I think. I know Armenia as thoroughly as one may know. How is it, that in my entire life experience I have not witnessed any abuses of wives by their husbands in Armenia, or at least any statistically significant number of them, and you claim that this is a mass phenomenon? How much do you know about Armenia, at least about the Armenia up to September, 1991? Have you been ever a witness of your alleged abuses in Armenia? There has never been a significant abuse by Armenian men of their wives. If you think that any significant number of Armenians have ever visited Russia in the old days, and have “fooled around,” I have to tell you again that you are judging about things that you have no personal knowledge of, and have never witnessed. Making unfounded and incorrect allegations of such sweeping character is a back stubbing, believe me, but I know that you are not making them out of bad intentions. You are just too young, and tend to take few things to extremes. (Hope you may tolerate such a comment from an old man ). Otherwise, you have to tell me what the source of your information is. I don’t propose to keep quite, if we are aware of any domestic abuses. If there are any, I propose to vigorously prosecute them, but not to make imaginary allegations about things that we have no knowledge of. There has never been any evidence of ramped adultery in Armenia that I have lived in. If things are different today, I have no knowledge of it, and perhaps others may be more qualified to make such conclusions, or dismiss your allegations.

 

Agree that it is insincere to allege that I may be for “sweeping the dirt under the carpet.” I think my entire presence in this Forum has been a manifestation of the opposite.

 

And you don’t have to argue with me about the difficulties of your generation. I am very much aware of it, and I empathize your generation very much for it. I think many of my former posting in this Forum amy be the evidence of it. I know how hard it is for you, and I think I have been very articulate about it.

 

Nothing in my posting is aimed at you, personally. Trust me, please. Everything in my posting is directed at the two extreme ideologies, and at the idiologization of the issue.

 

I am very touched by the sad story of rape you communicate in your message, and I can see how profoundly a little girl may be impressed by it (don’t misunderstand – you have been a little girl then, right?). And who is that monster who would not be touched by it? But let me ask you, how many more such stories do you know? How many rape stories in Armenia the older people that you know are aware of? Also, I have to ask you did the girl of your story tell you why did she commit suicide before committing it. I find some inconsistency in your interpretation, though. She was raped, and he dumped her later on? Do you know that no rapist man could have walked alive in Armenia, neither in freedom nor in prison? In my entire life, I have heard of only handful of girls (may be less) jumping off the Kievian bridge. You are saying her parent disowned her. I cannot argue about it. I am not a witness, nor I know them, or would justify them. All I can say is that you are taking things out of proportions. Sure, something like this might’ve happened. But the major tragedy is not in being disowned after being raped, but in being raped in the first place, I gather. Your interpretations are so invalid (but innocent ) I am not saying that it would’ve been easy for a girl to live a regular life after the rape. But is it easy anywhere else? What does the fact of rape have to do with the virginity? Isn’t it a little bit of bending backwards?

 

I personally don’t want to know who is virgin and who is not (don’t misinterpret it, please.), and as I have told it over and over, it is nobody’s business. You are just a little bit over-dramatizing things. And you are so wrong to think that our nation lacks humanness. You just know not much about our nation.

 

And let me disagree with you, talking about the gifts. Your love and devotion may indeed be the gift to your husbands, as well as the opposite may be their gift to their wives. You said it very well. No disagreements from my side. But what is wrong with having a state of a condition that may serve for both men and women as an ideal? I am far from imposing this ideal on anybody, but I am advocating its existence. Every young man and woman can make his/her choices. Why should we ascribe to a notion that somehow the virginity is wrong? What’s wrong about it? Or are you saying that there is nothing wrong about not being virgin? If yes, then what is your argument with me? Haven’t I said the same? Are you saying that the society has to be more tolerant towards it? Do we really have any arguments here? Am I not claiming that that’s where the society is headed, and we should let the life itself settle these issues? Have I not accepted that there is a prejudice in Armenian society with respect to the virginity? Why are you taking my statements out of proportions? Or are you saying that we should amend the constitution of Armenia, and add a paragraph there that “The right of being non-virgin is guaranteed by the Constitution?” What action do you want to be taken? Is there any action to be taken? Isn’t this a process in any society?

 

(See the next posting)

[Guest]

You are over-dramatizing the sad story over and over. Are you saying that if the Armenian society fully accepts the absence of virginity, no other raped girls are going to commit suicide? Why are you making criminals out of our entire nation?

 

Gayane, trust me on this, you will not blend with the conventional crowd no matter what.

 

Well, about winning and losing.... Let me stick to my opinion and claim that, as I have said, if this becomes a contest, the women would not be the losers, and please let me not articulate it any further.

 

You say historically the Armenian women have been the losers, and they will be the losers again, unless they speak out. How much of Armenian history have you studied? Why should you make such overwhelming statements?

 

I am glad that you are not threatened by the Russian women. You shouldn’t. That’s all I was saying. But I am saying that Armenian women need to take a better care of themselves, and be more disciplined. I would be surprised that you would want to argue with this. I couldn’t understand what double-standard are you referring to. Sorry, can’t reply.

 

“ How is it an armenian girl's fault if an armenian guy chooses to prefer a russian girl?” First of all, not all Armenia guys prefer Russian girls. But do I understand you correctly that you are saying "all that is guys' fault." And it has noting to do with the girls? Let me say, yes, I think Armenian girls have to share the blame, if, allegedly, the Armenian guys choose other girls. Things are very much interrelated.

 

Your last conclusion on the “justification of cheating” is again taken out of proportions, I think. This is one of the extremes in your conclusions, that I am trying to negate.

 

I don’t know what you are referring to when saying that I may feel free to selectively dissect your reply. May be you can be direct about it? On the other hand, isn’t it what you have done out of my posting?

 

P.S. I was planning to write about another topic tonight, but it needs to be postponed, now.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gayane:
......
Why is it that an armenian girl has to be confined to the four walls of her father's house during the best years of her life when an armenian guy can sleep with a different russian girl every night and be called a "man" for it? "

---

man????

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sulamita:
......
".......................
Lavaguyn t@gherq@ heranum en,
Vor yerbeq yerbeq el yet ch@gan."

---

mi ganisin gitei tsavog yerevi knoj hambuyr el chein tesel,dazhe aghjka dzerel brnatz chkayin .......u vochmi nverner eddzev el chstatsan......
chhastsrin?....
te charzhanatsan?....
........
"makardak" eli
........
ghosg ka

" mard ena tesnum - inch vor uzuma tena ena gtnum inch vor mana gali "

.......
MJ jan ed "ignorant@" kayf bara durs ekav te che chei karum russakan original@ targmanei...
.........
lav es grel aper u lav temaner en

...........
ha aper en amerikian shorerov turg@ yerevi "commandosa" sovorum - npatak uni ,mur uni....
.....
lav eghir




[This message has been edited by davit (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Guest]

Martin, as I'm a very emotional person and don't hide my emotions, my response to you would have to be very emotional (some of the things you said have the potential to really set me off). I think that's hardly constructive at this point in time. Forgive me for choosing not to answer, at least at this time.

[Guest]

Dear Gayane,

 

What I have said in my postings had nothing to do with you personally. I have raised a general topic. If any of my subsequent discussions have been insulting to you, I sincerely apologies. I have not had any intention to insult you, and I have enormous personal respect for you. Please forgive my insensitivity, whichever way it might've been expressed.

[Guest]

Martin, I know it wasn't directed at me personally. I didn't take it as such. It's just that the topics are somewhat sensitive, that's all. At any rate, apology accepted

[Guest]

Thank you.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Introduction

(Topics on Genocide, National Identity, Armenian-Turkish Dialog, Diaspora vs. Hayastan, etc., coming.)


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 19, 2000).]

---

MJ jan -inch elav en mnatsatz@?....
shat hetagrgira...laynatzaval es mtatzum
.....


p.s nerogh eghir aper hetagrgir barum sghal ei tuyl tvel...

[This message has been edited by davit (edited November 22, 2000).]