Guest Posted September 8, 2000 Report Share Posted September 8, 2000 I have stepped into the 21st century with an uneasy feeling about the structure and foundation of the average Armenian Family. This structure has altered greatly in the past few years - for the better and worse (more for the worse probably). What I witness is marriages based on superficial elements. Marriages of comfort. Children who are born into families that have no structure, where there is no discipline. The Armenian Wife/Mother is not in her role any more. Children are left to be nurtured on their own. This is very dangerous especially here in the states (more specifically LA). This reality exists both here, in the states and in Armenia. Each condition has its own reason. The incidents of the past 12 years, have cripled the Armenian Family in Armenia. It is very difficult to find families in Armenia, where all the members are in one place. Many of the husband have left the country to earn money and support the family. The Armenian Wife/Mother has taken on the role of a Father also. This reality has effected her role as a Mother. In other cases (very few) the Armenian Wife/Mother has left the country in search of a job, again to support the family back home. The Armenian husband has taken on a role that is very strange for him (psychologically damaging). The overall atmosphere in the family is an unhealthy one because of these circumstances. Not to mention many other social factors that come into play. Here in LA, or in the states overall, the situation is a bit different. It appears to me, that the Armenian Wife/Mother somehow does not bother putting in enough effort to discipline her children. "This is a free country." OK. So what? It does not prohibit you from disciplining your kids. So many of the laws are missinterpreted by Armenian parents and this lack of knowlegde works against them in many cases. Something somewhere is wrong. Very very wrong. Divorces are very common. So is adultery (for both sides). The Armenian Family is losing ground. What do YOU guys see as the solution to preventing this? What would you do as an individual to make sure you have a solid base and a happy, prosperous marriage? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2000 Report Share Posted September 13, 2000 good topic, aneta You're right: the situation, as you describe it, is dismal. It seems I could write volumes on the subject, pages upon pages of contempt for some of our traditions which, in my view, prohibit the healthy functioning of all of the members of an armenian family. What I see as "wrong" and how to "fix" it (some of it will overlap with points A. has already made) 1. Girls marry at an age and place in their development when they should not be marrying. 30 yr old businessmen marrying 18 year old high school graduates are common, more common than we realize. And that is no foundation for a marriage. I have the strongest contempt for any parent who would let their daughter marry at this age, especially to someone who's seen so much more of life than they have. This alone foreshadows marital troubles. What possible chance does an innocent girl of 18 have at anything that would resemble equality in this marriage? And don't get me wrong, I don't think true equality is possible, nor is it desirable. I have no qualms with women who submit to their husband. But this submission should be a choice, a desire the woman's consciously fulfilling. It should not be an obligation risen out of necessity. 2. Then there are the chains an Armenian woman is bound with for all eternity, and you all know how I feel about that. The double standard is strongest in our society, it seems (both in the diaspora and at home). I think mutual respect is the foundation a marriage is based on. In a very traditional armenian family, the respect (in the practical sense i use it in) is for the man only. The woman is not really respected. She's put on a pedestal, admired for a few artificial qualities, and rather mistreated overall. The foundation I've been talking about does not exist. This makes me say: what marriage?????? I will address the other points at a later time. Meanwhile, this should spur enough controversy. Gayane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2000 Report Share Posted September 27, 2000 Sulamita, the only way is to live in traditional Armenian holy way. It has to be a strict family! All western ideas are the outcomes of these immoralities. In my family father is the host. I never argued with my father, because he has more experience than me. I respect my parents more than anybody in this world. And i don't understand a phrase such as "mother is my friend" (i've heard from some song ... I never talked about girls to my parents, because it is unacceptable and shows big disrespect to elders. I've always did what i am told to do by elders. At the same time, I've never been refused in anything in my life. My parents gave me a gift of a good kid life. If I asked my father to buy anything for me, he boght 20 but not 1. My grandfather was the same. My parents lived and worked for me very hard to make sure i get everything best in my life. Now i study in England, it is and amazing thing, you know.I am proud to live in family like mine and i am sure that my kids will be grown in the same way, where kids respect parents, never argue with them, don't put respect to anybody higher than respect to parents, where the word of father or elder brother is a rule, where one day I will also become an elder brother and kids (cousins: brothers, sisters) will respect me in the same way I respect my elders. If my kids will not be grown in the way i say, and in western way where kids even run from house and say bad words to parents, then it is better not to have a kid like that anymore!!! With love and respect to Armenian girls!The Armenian Tiger! [This message has been edited by Artur (edited September 27, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2000 Report Share Posted September 27, 2000 Gayush, i thing to merry an 18 y.o. girl is normal, because at their age, our girls already know how to be a good wife and mother. From the age of 13-14 they know how to cook and do the family staff. For you it is impossible, because you think that a girl should get a good job first etc. But that's the differences of mentality. From my point of view my wife has to be 18 or 19, while I will be 23-24. 4-5 years difference is perfect.Another thing, you are wrong that women are not respected in Armenian families at all. It is right that Man is the host, and he will be a host, otherwise there will be a lot of conflicts and argueing and that might lead to divorce If a man is the host then there will never be argueing and conflicts, his word is a rule. But women are respected if they are dedicated to their husbands, and no dout that kids respect mothers as well. I don't think that anybody i know would say i don't respect my mother, this is nonsence in Armenian family in ARMENIA. Artur www.artur2000.com [This message has been edited by Artur (edited September 30, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2000 Report Share Posted September 28, 2000 My immediate reaction was to launch into a long and complicated explanation of my view that women in armenian families are taken for granted at worst, worshipped at best, but not respected. At least, not according to the definition of respect I would use. And then I thought to myself, "why do I even bother." So I think I'll spare you that lengthy explanation. Gayane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2000 Report Share Posted September 28, 2000 I have posted a material by Eddie Arnavoudian called "Hovanness Toumanian and the drama of abused womanhood" in the Armenian Poetry tread. I have also sent a scanned copy of the poem "Maro" to Garo Hopefully in a day or two we may have it posted. This reference would be my partial reply to some, and not all, of the issues discussed in this tread. [This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 28, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2000 Report Share Posted October 3, 2000 Originally posted by Artur:Gayush, i thing to merry an 18 y.o. girl is normal, because at their age, our girls already know how to be a good wife and mother. From the age of 13-14 they know how to cook and do the family staff. Artur www.artur2000.com I know the post is addressed to Gayane but I could not resist asking ... Artur, is this your formula for choosing a wife? "to be a good wife and mother" = "to cook and do the family staff" A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 Is it Ok if i don't answer this question? No, i think those are major points, plus a good high school education would be a good thing :) for herself... What else do a good family need??? I want my wife to be a loving person, a mother of my kids who will dedicate her life to the kids and the family. But as some kind of tradition in my family, i wouldn't really want my wife work. Artur.With love and respect to any Armenian girl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Artur:plus a good high school education would be a good thing : ) for herself Oh yes ... who needs those women with college degrees and their corruptive knowledge? Let them burn in hell !!! He he he ... [This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited October 05, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 Sulamita, In countries like Turkmenistan, girl’s parents pay men to marry their daughters. It is a national tradition there. More educated the girls, more of a penalty the parents pay. The most valuable girls in terms of requiring the least penalty are the ones who don’t know to read. If they learn to read, or moreover, are well educated, they may be a treat to their husbands’ authority. It is very convenient for certain types of men. Why should men bother to establish their authority on the merits, if it is much easier to prevent women from becoming educated, and more importantly, from having their own opinions. After all, if they have opinions, they may even dare to express their opinions. Well, you know what these types of thoughts are reflective of, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 MJ, the country you are reffering to is probably called: Wonderland. Maybe Turkmenistan was something like that 100-500 years ago, but you can't find it now. Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 Artur, Only a dozen of years ago my fellow Turkmen classmates at Moscow University have asserted to me that the practice still exists. About 20 years ago, my fellow classmate from Yerevan University, whoes parents used to work in Ashkhabad, has certified to me that they have had personal encounters with this practice. Besides, your ideal Armenia seem to me not to differ much from Turkmenistan. OK. May be it is one step better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 Vay Artur Artur Txa jan, kez inch asenk vor inch haskanas.. vor mi koxmits chenk motenum hartsin nuyn dimadrutyannenk handipum...hoknaki chxosam, lav, yesem dimadrutyan handipum.. Lav, mi hat hayeren hayavari grem irar haskanank... Asumes uzumes vor kint hnazand lini, epel tapel imana, lav kin yev lav mayr lini...eh ha!!! ova inch asum!!! eli tox lni..baits da chi nshanakum vor kyankits bexabar piti lni, che? sxal mi haskatsi, chem asum im nman lni, etel tsayrahexutyuna...baits gone mi kich zargatsats lni, ashxari bane imana...neuzheli du kez lav kzgas yerp amusnatsats lines mi axchka het vore keznits yan vochmi txamartu het nuynisk chi xosatsel lurj dzevov? yete vochmi "exposure" chi unetsel, inch gites vor kez het amusnanuma sirelov kam hargelov?...lurj, mi hat mtatsi..karoxa hents amusnanuma vor tane chmna martik dzer charnen...isk hima tes inchem asum...yete mi axchik lini vore arten giti te txamartik inchen uzum, inchien dzgtum, vor arten giti te vonts varvi ir amusnu het tarber paymannerum (xoski yerp "supportive" lini, yerp "encourage" ani, yerp nsti hartse zhamerov knnarki, u yerpel miankamits zitsi, yerp asi vor "ay du axmax, es inch gortseres brnel, ba tents banen anum?" lol--katak)...Haskanumes, arturik Yes chem karoxanum embrnel te mi axchik vor ir kyankum vochinch chi tesel vonts kez KIN piti lni...axr et lurj gortsa, katak chi, et ko asats "lav kin" linele...baits yete et axchike urish txamartkants gone tsanachats lni, erku bar poxanakats, na arten kkaroxana hamematel, asel vor "vay im arture inch lav txaya, saxits lavna"...aveli lav chi vor tents asi?....gone kimanas vor et axchike amen inch kani vor ko hamar lav kin lini votev mtatsuma vor du bolorits lav amusine klines...neuzheli du yev ko nmannere et hamematutyunits vaxenumek?...havatatsats exi, vaxenalu voch mi ban chka...vor yes xoski nstum hamematumem, hoyakap txan mnuma hoyakap txa, isk axmaxnel mnuma axmax...u tentsel jokumes te um het amusnanas isk um het voch...orinak yes havatatsatsem vor du shat makur sirt unes, bari andznavorutyunes (heto inch vor sax ore krvumenk...lol)...xelkov u ashxare tesats axchkanits petk chi vaxenal, mtatsel te ko nerkayutyune vorpes txamart na chi hargi...hakarake...shat aveli shat khargi...trust me...yes kez orinak, vor hnazandvumem spitak xushem darnum...lol... de el inch asem, gitem ches hamadzaynvelu, baits uzumem vor gone im asatsnel haskanas... te inchem asum, inch innkati unem... u ari chkrvenk, lav?...uxaki energia chunem...hima gluxs ahavor xarna (etel zargatsats axchka kyanke..lol) Gayancho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2000 Report Share Posted October 5, 2000 ::::::::::::::::::::::::))))))))))))))))))))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2000 Report Share Posted October 5, 2000 ::::::::::::::::::::::::))))))))))))))))))))) I'll leave Gayane's message without any comment... )))))))But i want to say i am disagree with you in 80-90 %, especially the middle part... I just don't want to argue with you... too much argueing with girls, not good thing... Artur www.artur2000.com P.S. I think this is my last message about any family, girls, traditions topics. Live your life, there isn't point to explain everybody my point of view... Hopefully, one day there will be HyeForum where ARMENIANS can discuss something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2000 Report Share Posted October 5, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Artur:P.S. I think this is my last message about any family, girls, traditions topics. Live your life, there isn't point to explain everybody my point of view... Hopefully, one day there will be HyeForum where ARMENIANS can discuss something.Artur,Actually you HAVE explained your point of view over and over and over. Even if we (specifically I) don't agree with it, I still respect it as a "point of view." I cannot enforce my views on you just like you can't enforce yours on me. We can discuss subjects and express oppinions and leave it at that.Now, your last sentence just makes me want to pull my hair out. Do you realize what you are saying? In other words, if someone does not see things your way he or she is not an ARMENIAN. How childish is that? Artur, don't let your extreme conservatism blind you. It harms you AND people around you. Regards` AnetaPS. I also want to mention that I agree with most of the statements made by Gayane. A woman cannot appreciate her husband to the fullest degree if she cannot compare him to other men she has encountered in her life (this encounter does not need to be an intimate one - please don't make assumptions). Yete kyanqum tgegh@ ches handipel, geghetsik@ ches gnahati. [This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited October 05, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2000 Report Share Posted October 5, 2000 The idea that Armenian women just need a high school education, and only need to worry about raising kids is an insult to the numerous college educated Armenian women, including my mom and aunts. It is what distinguished Armenians from Barsiks in Iran, that women were encouraged to educate themselves, the more the better. Not to brag, but my great aunt was one of the first women to graduate from college in Tehran(In the 1920's). In fact most of the "first women" (driving autos, wearing slacks, etc.)were the Armenian women in Iran. Then the Moslem Iranian women would follow suit. So Armenians have a reputation for having liberated attitudes toward women. Artur, I don't want to argue with you, in many ways I like your honest and bold thinking, but you need to think occasionally about how you sound. Sometimes I think you just say these things to stir up people to debate, which is good, I do the same. Anyway, good luck in finding that Hye Akhchik, let me know if she has a sister who is available, send her over to California! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2000 Report Share Posted October 5, 2000 What i said is what i said No comment... on anythingeven those parts that make me sick!!!"You are the best man i've ever had"... would be a nice thing to here from your wife... sure it would... That is it!I am not arguing... God bless those Holy Tradition Armenian girls, whose way is clear road to heaven...My pride is when russian girls enevy Armenian because they know how we treat them, they envy when i say to THEM what our girls are. Turkish guys envy, russian guys envy... but only so-called Armenians say something wrong with that... ArturHell with that... [This message has been edited by Artur (edited October 05, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2000 Report Share Posted October 5, 2000 I have been watching this topic but have refrained from posting because it is such an obvious matter for me. Armenian women should be encouraged to be college educated as much as men. What kind of sad joke is this ? To suggest that a woman should do this or that ? Who has confered this power to any individual ? Armenian, in the soviet period, had manyrespected female scientists and other professionals. Our women have fought the Turks and women organizations of the diaspora have been the least problematic and among the most useful of all. An Armenian discussing an Armenian topic at Armenian Hye Forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2000 Report Share Posted October 10, 2000 lol, artur, ko lezvovel hetd xosatsink, txa jan, eli ban dus chekav...lav, inch asem.. Isk ayn mer hargarzhan txamartkants voronk haskanum yev iskapes hargumen hay knoche handznumem im dzerke, sirte, yev xorn shnorhakalutyune Gayane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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