Hye/Odar:Revisiting an old hot topic!

[Guest]

Well here we go again! This should spark endless debate, but lets try to not get to mud slinging. I must say I can see the argument against mixed marriages, believe me I can. Shaat ges hay/ ges Amrikatsik martikner gan esteghrank(Californiai mech) yev shaat tkhurem elnum yep vor tesnoomem vor Hayeren chen khosum, yev mnak "bakhlava" yev "dolma" imamumen, yev hents et! Bayts imanumenk inch? Shaat "makur" Hayer tesnoomem vor aveli Amrikatsi en kante yes. Being "pure" Armenian is no guarantee that they will be faithful to Armenian culture. I am WAY MORE ARMENIAN than my so called "Pure" Armenian cousins. I KNOW WAY MORE about Armenian history, suffering and traditions than they ever will. Ask them about Tigran the Great, Khatchkars, the conversion of Trdat and you will get a blank look. It all has to do with the character and values of the parents. My mom made sure I spoke Armenian and learned about my culture. My dad, at first resisted, but later on supported this. You can have a Zulu/Armenian, Eskimo/Armenian, Fijian/Armenian, Yanomamo Indian/Armenian marriage, and the kids can be more Armenian tha some bushy eyebrowed kid from Yerevan. It all has to do with the parents, values and your heart. I say if the couple is dedicated to teaching values and respect, no matter what culture, and are committed to inculcating the children with both cultures, mixed marriages can be the best thing in the world. That's my take on it folks. I am sure I will hear all of yours. Lav, hents etim uzum asim.

[Guest]

Ok Steve yek khosenk iys temayi masin / huysov em verjum yev du mi ban k@sovores yev yes , grelu em Heren ,yev portselu em mi kani dzevov parzabanel ( batsatsrel ) iys Harts@ .

#1 iyo tsavali e yerb Hye axchik@ otar azgi het e amusnanum ,

#2 sakayn yerbek mi moratsy vor Hye kin@ amusnakan Kyankum ( otar azgi ) aveli domenant e kan Hye tramard@ otar azgi amusnutyan mej, Hye kin@ aveli lav e poxantsum / sovoretsnum / pahpanum / Haykakan gener@ otar azgi het amusnutyan jamanak /

 

#3 I am WAY MORE ARMENIAN than my so called "Pure" Armenian cousins. I KNOW WAY MORE about Armenian history, suffering and traditions than they ever will. Ask them about Tigran the Great,Khatchkars, the conversion of Trdat and you will get a blank look >>>

Masamb jisht e, iyo hima iysOr kan shat AmerikaHyer voronk Hayeren chen xosum /chgiten nuynisk HayOts PAtmutyun / grel / kardal / nuynisk xosum en Hayeren Kakazelov /

sakayn yek iys problem@ skzbits nayenk yev shat heruu chgnank , iys nuyn problem @ menk unenk hima Los Angelsi mej , patahum e mer isk achkeri araj , tsnorner@ galsi en USA berum irenst yerexanerin " apahov yerkir " sakayn apahov yerkir@ hats u jur cji talsi yev kam ko tan vardz@ ashxatel e petq vorpissy goyateves, yev inch tsnorner@ asxhatum en yev himanakanum hognats tun galsi yev hnaravorutyun chunen irents yerexanerin hetevelu/ Hayeren yev kam Haykakan Patmutyun sovoretsnelu hamar, haykakan dprotsner@ sarsapeli tank ne / matcheli chen amen mardu amis@ 325- 400$$ , yev artyunkum unenk yeritasard Axchik kam trra vor@ tekuz yev Hye e yev metsatsel e Hyi @entanikum sakayn yerbek liakatar Haykakan dastirakutyun yev Azgayin arjekner chi sovorel. batsy n@ranits inch tesel e ir arorya kyankum ,Sakayn sa bolor@ chen kan yev Shat Shat Hayer voronk tekuz yev tsnvel yev metsatsel en iyster USA liovin tirapetum en te HAyeren Lezvin yev te Tsanot en HAyots Patmutyan@.

 

#4 It all has to do with the parents, values and your heart. I say if the couple is dedicated to teaching values and respect, no matter what culture, and are committed to inculcating the children with both cultures,

>> Tariner Araj Hayastanum HAy tarner@ amsunanum eyin Rus - Hrya - Vratsy - Belorus - Ukrayina -i axchiknei het , skzbits bavakanin mets armuk er bartratsnum bolori mot barekamner@ hamadziyn cheyin sran , sakayn jamanaki het amen inch moratsvets yev normal er dartsel . sakayn sa Hayastan er iyster bolor@ Hayern eyin xosum dprotsum Hayeren eyin sovoretsnum / dastirakutynun@ HAykakan er yev miyayn tsnorneri vra cher / iyspes te iynpes Yerexaner@ Hye eyin metsanum HAykakan hokiov yev Haykakan mtaselakerpov.

isk iyster da aveli djva er anel@ ,

Bolor azgern el irents Lav yev Vat kormer@ unen / yete tsnorner@ NORMAL MARDIK en ankaskats irar hargelov yev mimyants azgayin arjekner@ haskanalov yev gnahatelov gone normal mard karor en metsatsnel vor@ 2 kormi hamar el amotank chi beri ,

#5 isk inch verabervume ko aveli lav linelun kam voch barekam / mez mej arajin kam 2rd kargi Hayer chkan Hye@ mnum e Hye , menak arten poker jorovurt enk yev karik chunenk mimyants voraki pitakner kptsnelu , Hye@ mnum e Hye ODUM JRUM YEV TSAMAKUM Sakayn Hye mnum e iyn mard@ ov ir yerkri yev azgi Pativ@ BARTSER K@PAHI .

[Guest]

Astvats im!!..lol..Yes der ays temayin kanradarnam ..translation: i'll revisit this topic later, have tons to say

 

Gayane

[Guest]

Ok, here we go..

 

Disclaimer: I say this with full knowledge of and exposure to several other cultures, either through close friends or guys I've dated. (And Steve, please, please, don't react to this with resentment, please, you know I don't mean to offend you)

 

If you've read "gone with the wind", there's a scene in there where an old woman remarks to Scarlett, "like should marry like". That's the best and most powerful argument against mixed marriages. It's my own personal belief that no matter how well two people understand each other or how much they love each other, ethnic identity, if different, has profound and deep reaching consequences in terms of the marriage and even the children.

First, the marriage. When two people get married, each one of them brings to the marriage an entirely different set of experiences, beliefs, norms, values, etc. Obviously they marry because they share most of those values, etc. But ethnic identity isn't just another "I like basketball, she doesn't" type of a difference. People have enough trouble reconciling those minor differences; to me it seems completely unnecessary to add such a major headache to the mix, thereby further complicating the marital relationship.

And now the kids: to me, most important in a marriage. Think of the enormous impact conflict about this element of identity will have on the child's psyche. I can't think of a single reason anyone would put their children through this. And perhaps the parents would be very sensitive to this, wanting the kids to know and love both cultures. And perhaps the kids will take to both. But, as I always say, at what cost??? Why should I, out of pure selfishness, marry someone I "love" when I know that will make my children miserable? Steve, I don't mean to pick on you, but perhaps you can relate: you yourself know firsthand the complexities of a mixed ethnic identity.

 

And this is to say nothing of the conflict a mixed marriage creates (at least on some level) with family on either side, and all those little things that have to do with society's perceptions, etc.

 

This may be a cynical view, but I think it's realistic.

 

Don't shoot me

Gayane

[Guest]

Don't worry Gayane, I won't shoot! I can totally see your argument, because you are arguing it from the perspective of marriage itself, rather than arguing for preserving the race, etc. Yes mixed marriages can be complicated, yes the children can go through some major problems(take a look at me!). But I think it is unrealistic to think that they are not going to happen. Mixed marriages, according to what I have read, are now the rule rather than the exception, in the US. A large percentage of Hispanics marry Anglos, and to a lesser extent, Blacks and Asians. The majority of Japanese Americans marry non Japanese. Jews are already going through a major crisis with marriage with Gentiles. I don't know about statistics for Armenians in America, but I am sure mixed marriages are on the rise, rather than decline.

 

So the question is not should Armenians marry odars, whether we like it or not, they are. The question is, how can Armenian identity be maintained? Or even can it? I believe it can. If I, despite having a good ole boy Dad from Tennessee, despite living in Iran for the good part of my childhood, despite spending my teenage years and beyond almost exclusively with Mexicans, despite never having a day of formal education in Armenian, If I can come on Hye Forum, yev asem vor Hayem, yev lusumem Nunei yerker@,yev amen inch vor Haykakana inzi shaat garevora, then I think there is hope for anyone! People, the Armenian will come through, believe me. It may not be exactly the same as with a pure Armenian, and that is what is difficult for you Makur Hayer. It is difficult when you see this guy(me!) who looks more like from Nebraska than Yerevan speaking Armenian and dancing shourtchbar! Of course, I know it is more difficult, including for me, when I meet someone with a very pronounced Armenian look and name, and they can't speak a word of Armenian! I feel like shouting at them "Will it kill you to learn some Armenian, buy some tapes, go on the internet, apush!" Anyway, that is my take on it. Armenians, you better deal with the fact that eventually many of your kids will marry odars!

[Guest]

Steve, you amaze me dude. Where the hell did you get so much patriotism.

[Guest]

In my view being Armenian (or of any other nation) or not is not as much an issue of ethnicity as it is of belonging to the culture. People of other ethic backgrounds have successfully assimilated in particular in Armenian culture, and have thought of themselves as Armenians. To the contrary, I know a great deal of Armenians, who are or were ashamed of their origin, and have always tried to hide it.

 

I think it doesn't matter how many of your parents are Armenian, if you yourself consider yourself to be an Armenian. It is worthwhile to mention that there is evidence that one of the greatest Armenian dynasties - Bagratuni, were of Jewish background. However, they have considered themselves to be Armenians, and have served Armenia well.

 

Of course, it remains to determine what Armenian culture means. I am absolutely convinced that opinions of many of us in this forum will coincide on this issue, but I am sure that some will disagree.

 

I also don't think that marrying Armenian will preserve the Armenian identity.

 

I think the Armenian identity can be preserved only if Armenia prospers, and becomes a subject of pride for all of us one or another way affiliated with Armenia.

 

Additionally, I think outside the framework of Armenian statehood (I don't mean outside the Armenia's geographic borders), preservation of the Armenian identity over the long run is neither possible, nor has any value.

 

After all, if we want to preserve our Armenian identity, it has to serve some purpose. In my view that purpose may be strengthening the existing statehood, and helping it to revive the dissipating cultural values that have once been and probably remain as a subject of pride to many of us.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 27, 2000).]

[Guest]

Let's get this strait. The nakharar families like Bagratouni, Mamikonyan, Arshkouni most of whom settled in Armenia 2-nd century BC and had an alleged non-Armenian origin, became active in politics and millitary only in 3-rd 4-th centuries AD, when as a result of constant marriges with local nakharar families, they became completely Armenian. And especially Bagratounies, who gained a major role in Armenia in 6-7-th century AD and became kings in 9-th century AD. They did not CONSIDER themselves to be Armenians, they were Armenians.

 

And, yes you're true, the only way to preserve Armenian identity is strengthening the existing statehood.

[Guest]

I would like to make most of MJ words´mine. I also agree with Gayane´s practical approach to the issue of marriage.

 

The diaspora will always follow its natural evolution path, like the old communities in Poland, Hungary and the Netherlands did. Extinction.

[Guest]

Berj, I didn't mean that Bagratouni were not Armenians. TO the contrary I claim that belonging to the culture determines the nationality. But I don't totally agree that "as a result of constant marriages with local nakharar families" they had become ethnically Armenians. At least in the case of Arshakuni's the marriages were "contracted" more with the Bysanteans or other nations than with Armenians. Unfortunately, I don't have the facts handy for other nakharar dynasties.

[Guest]

MJ, I will look for the facts, the contracted marriges of Arshakounies where very limited. There was a case when King Arshak-2 married Olimpia, the Bysantine Emperors sister, however he a

had two wives and Pap, his son with queen Paradzem became his inherit. Olimpia was allegedly poisoned by Paradzem.

 

I completely agree with you that devotion to a given culture determines nationality. But there are certain limits in everything.

 

[This message has been edited by Berj (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Guest]

Berj, thanks for the facts. I agree that there are limits to everything. But I think, especially we Armenians have no basis for arguing about being a pure race. Hardly any of us can trace their genealogical trees beyond 3-5 generations. What was before?

 

I can conjecture what it was like...

 

Throughout centuries Armenia has been invaded by Romans, Persians, Turks, Mongols, Arabs, Russians, etc.. What is the first thing one experiences after invasions? Mass rapes. Now, with the absence of methods of contraception or abortion, what is the result?

 

 

The latest documented mass rape of Armenian women that I am aware of was in 1921, when the Kozak detachments of invading Red Army concluded their expedition raping the vast majority of women of local Kapan population. One of the reported outcomes was mass syphilis, by the way. What purity are we talking about?

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Guest]

Just recalled the first short-lived Armenian Constitution (sorry, have forgotten the name of the document). It was probably written during the David-Bek uprising. It had proclaimed that "Every citizen living on the territory of Armenia, has the honor to call himself Armenian."

[Guest]

Dear MJ,

Following your logic we can come to a conclussion that the nations does not really exist and all their names are already just the names of geographical areas. In this case the Germans are not Germans but Slavs, Americans, French, British considering the occupation of Germany by allied forces and the USSR in 1945 and an alleged mass rape of German population. The French are not French but Germans considering an alleged mass rape of the French population by nazies during the occupation of France etc etc. Let's think that the Kozaks raped the vast majority of women in Kapan. But where are their children. I don't see any Kozak looking people in Kapan considering that they must be around their 80-s at present. Also the people of Kapan in their 50-s and 20-s don't look Kozak either. Kapantsi-s are one of the most dark haired and dark eyed people in Armenia. Though Kozaks are not that blonde, their features are totally different. I also think that very few pecentage of women get pregnant after being raped, because of the disaterous effect of it on their nerves and psycology.

[Guest]

Dear Berj, I am replying to you just out of courtesy. I really don’t want to engage any more...

 

I think your conclusions on my logic are a little exaggerated. To the contrary what you allege, I think it was obvious that in my posting I was talking about the idea of “pure nations” or “pure blood” being absurd, especially for our Armenian reality. My comments were directed at the argument in this forum whether a person with one Armenian parent only has the right to consider himself/herself as “real Armenian” or not. I don’t understand your arguments on Germans not being Germans, or French not being French, because alleged mass rapes. I think I have been claiming exactly the opposite, i.e. the “pure blood” has not much to do in the issue of the determination of national belonging, and “half breed” Armenians are not any less Armenians then those who allegedly claim they are “pure Armenians,” as long as they consider themselves to be Armenians.

 

By the way, now I remember the name of the document – the constitution I have referred to earlier - “Vorogait Parats.”

 

I also don’t understand your remarks on Kozaks and Kapan. In particular, I don’t understand whether you are questioning that it has happened, or you are trying to say that the offspring of the alleged rape may look or be accepted as Armenians. In the first case, I would refer you to the materials of the period of the first Republic at the State Historic Archive of the Republic of Armenia. When I used to extensively study the materials of this archive in late 80’s, the archive was located at the corner of Baghramyan and Kochar streets. In the second case, I am totally confused. Are you denying what I have said, or are you supporting it?

 

I hope you can appreciate my motives beyond not replying to other comments of yours on the numbers of mates you have enjoyed in MGU.

 

And again, please articulate your consequent remarks in a generic way. I really don't have the desire to argue any further. But be assured that I will continue reading the postings in the Hye Forum.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Dear Berj, I am replying to you just out of courtesy. I really don’t want to engage any more...

I think your conclusions on my logic are a little exaggerated. To the contrary what you allege, I think it was obvious that in my posting I was talking about the idea of “pure nations” or “pure blood” being absurd, especially for our Armenian reality. My comments were directed at the argument in this forum whether a person with one Armenian parent only has the right to consider himself/herself as “real Armenian” or not. I don’t understand your arguments on Germans not being Germans, or French not being French, because alleged mass rapes. I think I have been claiming exactly the opposite, i.e. the “pure blood” has not much to do in the issue of the determination of national belonging, and “half breed” Armenians are not any less Armenians then those who allegedly claim they are “pure Armenians,” as long as they consider themselves to be Armenians.

By the way, now I remember the name of the document – the constitution I have referred to earlier - “Vorogait Parats.”

I also don’t understand your remarks on Kozaks and Kapan. In particular, I don’t understand whether you are questioning that it has happened, or you are trying to say that the offspring of the alleged rape may look or be accepted as Armenians. In the first case, I would refer you to the materials of the period of the first Republic at the State Historic Archive of the Republic of Armenia. When I used to extensively study the materials of this archive in late 80’s, the archive was located at the corner of Baghramyan and Kochar streets. In the second case, I am totally confused. Are you denying what I have said, or are you supporting it?

I hope you can appreciate my motives beyond not replying to other comments of yours on the numbers of mates you have enjoyed in MGU.

And again, please articulate your consequent remarks in a generic way. I really don't have the desire to argue any further. But be assured that I will continue reading the postings in the Hye Forum.

---

MJ jan, sorry for the impulsive character of my previous post. I guess I must not post when I'm tired and also, as you can see my English is limited, so some phrases look sarcastic in English though I don't mean them that way in the language I think.

I don't question the fact of mass rape in Kapan, to the contrary I think it took place. What I was trying to say is that I don't believe there is an offspring (sorry to use your word) of that incident as Kapantsis, well majority of them are dark curly haired with dark eyes, short. Almost all of them look alike.
I also see that you consider a person to belong to a certain nationality by what he feels and states. I agree with this and I voiced my opinion on this a lot on this forum. But again, there are limits in everything.

P.S. The dormitory mates. While being traditional, Armenians are also very cosmopolitan at the same time, and can act depending on the situation and given relationship. Well, sometimes it looks like hypocricy, but...And also, MJ jan, aren't you well aware of the fact that a lot of western girls like "machoism" and that gives a large number of Armenian guys advantage. A big passage for a "P.S.", isn't it
Arayzhm