Menk enk ,Mer Sarer@....................

[Guest]

Lav kenoya che (sa vorpes naxaban).

Megutse horetesakan tema pite aratcharkem,bayts hamenayn depes inchpes asumen portsa,porstank che ,shat tsetvats tema'inch anel, vor hay azg@ chkortsne er uruyn demka tevakoxelov 21 rd dar(noretsem krknum shat mets ev horetesakan temaye,bayts gone klsven vorosh kartsekner).

Incpes gitenk jamanak@ poxume mardaknts mtatselakerpa,esk menk linelov avandakan joxovurd shat djvarenk harmarvum,kam chenk usum harmarvel,ardyok menk pite undunenk erakanutyuna(integratsvenk,inchpes hima @undunvatse asel),te portsenk kangnetsnel ayn inch vor spasvume(vor@ em kartsekov anhnare, kam shat djvar).

Esk inche Spasvum?

Ayn inch exav bolor evropakan azgere het(bolora gnalov kortsnumem, ete arden chen kortsrel erents demka).

Usumem me orenak berel(parskastane orenaka),Vor@ inch vor tsevov usume pahpanvel arevmutke nerxushumets,inchkanove hajoxvum djavare asel.

Moratsa asei,inchu e ints ayskan huzum ays teman,ereve ete 15-20 tare aratch liner me gutse ayskan tsavot chei naye ays hartsen(teyev hamozavatsem vor ayn jamanakel kayn hartser voronk hratapein).

Hima antsnenk ayn"Tsavot hartseren" vor ints shate huzum.Inch karoxe mes tal ayspes kotchvats "integratsum@"(krknumem sa em kartsekne,ev yurakanchyured karoxek unenal tser kartseka),sksenk lav koxmerets,mardkanks kensamakardake atch(motaka 10-15 tarenera @untatskum),vora erok karevor xndere,Vat koxmera, baroyakan barkere ankum(vora em kartsekov shat tsavote,hatkapes mer azge hamar),hay@ kkortsne er uruyn demka(nkate unem xarnvelov uresh azgeren),azgayen arjeknere korust,el chem xosum axandnere batsasakan hetevank@,vora nuynpes aysorva tsavot hartseretse.Ayskanov usumem avartel,noretsem usum krknel shat horetesakan temaye,bayts portsenk amen meks artahaytel er kartseknera,husov em hetakrker knnarkumner klinen.

[Guest]

Inchu che, artahaytenk mer kartsiknere. Ays temai veraberyal im kartsike hetevyalne (shatert yerevi arten kgushakek im kartsike..lol)

 

I'm all for assimilation. Assimilation is what allows us, as Armenians, to function in this society. Generally, the more assimilated, the better. Assimilation implies immersion in the adopted culture, which leads to higher returns; socially, professionally, psychologically. However, assimilation comes at a price. For me, the price has often been way too high.

 

I think when thinking of assimilation we need to think of it on two different levels, or two different circumstances: one, the quick and painful assimilation of first generation immigrants (myself included) and two, the gradual assimilation of a people over many generations.

 

Personally, I've always viewed assimilation as necessary, "do or die". If I didn't become "americanized", I wouldn't have succeeded in school, if i didn't succeed in school, I wouldn't have gone on to college, if I didn't go to college I wouldn't succeeded professionally, etc etc. However, it's THE psychological conflict that defines me. When you belong to two cultures, you belong to neither. And that is a sad, sad circumstance. That is on the personal level.

 

On the more general level, Armenians tend to fight even gradual assimilation. I see positives in this. It is because of this general resistance that we've managed to retain our beautiful traditions through the ages and through so many conquests.

 

To conclude, I think assimilation is the only way of attaining progress (and yes, some armenian traditions are in dire need of progress). However, too much progress would amount to the eventual elimination of the armenian race, and we can't have that for obvious reasons. I think sufficient assimilation is possible without losing our heritage and that's the balance we need to reach. How? That's a question for the ages that I won't even attempt to answer or they'll definitely "lynch" me this time..lol

[Guest]

Interesting topic.

 

I don't think assimilation is necessary in order to succeed in life, both on personal and on professional levels. If you look at the successful immigrant groups you can see a huge resistance to assimilation. In Silicon Valley and in Wall Street Indian immigrants are in many respective positions, yet they manage to maintain their cultural identity. Same can be said about Jews. It's not necessary to succumb to pressures to fit in with the majority. One doesn't need to be a part of mainstream in order to achieve a certain degree of success. An example of Jewish diaspora is a very good example to this. Despite the persecution for centuries, they have managed to survive and succeed. Even today in there are huge anti-semitic feelings in American society, but instead of changing themselves, Jews are educating the society. The moment one succumbs to pressures and assimilates, then they lose their identity, and their whole life becomes a sham. There is no direct relationship between education and assimilation. I think one feature that sets us, Armenians, aside from the rest of the society is our ability to succeed, while retaining our Armenianness.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gayane:

 

Inchu che, artahaytenk mer kartsiknere. Ays temai veraberyal im kartsike hetevyalne (shatert yerevi arten kgushakek im kartsike..lol)

 

I'm all for assimilation. Assimilation is what allows us, as Armenians, to function in this society. Generally, the more assimilated, the better. Assimilation implies immersion in the adopted culture, which leads to higher returns; socially, professionally, psychologically. However, assimilation comes at a price. For me, the price has often been way too high.

 

I think when thinking of assimilation we need to think of it on two different levels, or two different circumstances: one, the quick and painful assimilation of first generation immigrants (myself included) and two, the gradual assimilation of a people over many generations.

 

Personally, I've always viewed assimilation as necessary, "do or die". If I didn't become "americanized", I wouldn't have succeeded in school, if i didn't succeed in school, I wouldn't have gone on to college, if I didn't go to college I wouldn't succeeded professionally, etc etc. However, it's THE psychological conflict that defines me. When you belong to two cultures, you belong to neither. And that is a sad, sad circumstance. That is on the personal level.

 

On the more general level, Armenians tend to fight even gradual assimilation. I see positives in this. It is because of this general resistance that we've managed to retain our beautiful traditions through the ages and through so many conquests.

 

To conclude, I think assimilation is the only way of attaining progress (and yes, some armenian traditions are in dire need of progress). However, too much progress would amount to the eventual elimination of the armenian race, and we can't have that for obvious reasons. I think sufficient assimilation is possible without losing our heritage and that's the balance we need to reach. How? That's a question for the ages that I won't even attempt to answer or they'll definitely "lynch" me this time..lol

 

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[Guest]

Hargeli Haytxa, chei asi te horetasakan tema es artsartsum. Kartsum em vor da lurj yev aktual tema e.

Hamadzayn em, vor mardik poxvum en zhamanakneri het, bayc chei asi te shat, mievnuyn e mard ararats@ mnum e mard ararats. Mardkanc cankutyunner@, zgtumner@, yerazanqner@, sirelu yev atelu artahaytam dzever@ irenc nrberangnerov chen poxvel. Mardik aynqan barbaros en kam azniv, vorqan eghel en misht. Yes chei asi te tesnum em popoxutyun.

 

Du asum es yevropakan azgeri korcrats demqi masin. Ashxatum em hishel, te vorn e eghel nranc demq@, yev inch en nranq hima korcnum? Yete havatqi masin e xosq@, isk da kartsum em vor amenakarevorn e, apa kuzei hishecnel , vor irakanum voch mi havatq el chi tsnvel Yevropayum. Yevropayum miayn @ndunvel kam merzhvel en havatqner@. Kam aghavaghvel, orinak AMN-um. Hishenq inkvizician, aghandner@. Orinak inkviziciayi shrjanum mardkanc masnatum ein, bacatrelov nranc, yev zhoghovurdnerin, vor da irenc isk ogti hamar e arvum. Qristonya mard@ ayrum er mek urish qristonyai, nra “barin” cankanalov. Yev da ditvum er vorpes mi prkutyun te zohi hamar, te zhoghovrdi. Ayd nuyn qristonya germanaciner@ spand kazmakerpecin 2-rd hamashxarhayini zhamanak, irenc pes qristonya belarusneri, leheri, rusneri yev ayloc mi mets spand, hamozvats linelov, vor anum en da hanun mardkutyan “maqrutyan”, hanun irenc apagayi. Isk te hima incher en anum ayd nuyn yevropaciner@, bolors el tesnum enq. Miayn Haravslaviai orinak@ bavakan e. Da el, I dep arvec, yev arvum e, “bari” npataknerov.

Sa mi bnavorutyan gits e, vor@ yes chem karogh anjatel yevropacineric. Kartsum em, vor nranq misht el kmnan aydpisin!

Bayc indz aveli huzum e, mer, hayeris vitchak@.

Verji tarineri @ntacqum sksel em nkatel, vor menq poxvum enq. Menq sksum enq ashxatel nmanvel yevropacinerin, yev inch@ el aveli vat e amerikacinerin. Voch bolor@, bayc yeritasardutyun@. Hamadzayn em, vor menq yevropaciner enq. Bayc mer yeritasardutyun@ ir yevropakan dzgtumnerov, kartses te @ndorinakum e voch te lav@ ayl vat@. Orinak azatamtutyun@ serakan harcerum, kam ayd anitsyal kosmopolitizm@, kam voch pakas anitsyal aghandner@, inch-vor strkamtutyan pes mi ban em nkatum mer mej depi otar@, depi Yevropan u American. Mardik geradasum en gnal ayd yerkirner@ hambalutyan, chnayac vor Hayastanum liqn e hambali gorts@. Yev kuzei nshel, te vorqan hesht u hamardzak en xosum, mer hayrenakicneric vomanq irenc hayreniqi irenc zhoghovrdi masin amenabacasakan , amenavat notanerov. Verjins el nor moda e.

Yes huys unem, vor ays mitumner@ zhamanakavor en, yev henc vor Hayastani vitchak@ miqich lavana, apa arag kverakangnenq mer azgayin demq@.

Boloris el haytni e, te popoxman shrjannerum, vorqan e shatanum u ashxuzhanum anbaroyakanutyun@ te hasarak mardkancj, te karavarutyunneri.

Kartsum em, vor bolors el anhangstacats enq ays banerov, yev kuzeinq or shut kargi gal.

Yes ekspert chem ays tesak harcerum, bayc kasem ayn, inch hushum e indz im intuician:

1. Mez petq e AZGAYIN GAGHAPARAXOSUTYUN. Gaghabaraxosutyan harcerov petq e zbaghvi yerkri karavarutyun@, bayc yete menq spasenq te yerb karavautyun@ xelq@ khavagi glux@, menq karogh e aydpes el ayn dzerq chberenq. Vorteghic kareli e vercnel gaghabaraxosutyun@? Andradarnanq mer azgi metserin, Tumanyan, Charenc, Shiraz, Andranik, Nzhdeh, Dro,… vorin asem? @st tchashaki. Ardyoq dranq surb chen mez hamar? Andradarnanq mer ekeghecun, mer avanduytnerin, ov uni avelin, qan menq? Mi gaghaparaxosutyun, mi erkir, mi azg, mi ekegheci!

2. ARTAGAGHTI KANXUM. Yes inqs ayd artagaghtacneric em.

Hima menq karogh enq anverj hayhoyel Hayastani karavarutyan@, banak@, ashxharhagrakan dirq@, harevannerin, yev inqners mez. Bayc dranic, ekek xostovanenq verjapes gone 1 angam, menq chenq dadarum nmanvel glux@ avazi mej mtcrats jaylami. Ham hamadzayn enq vor hay enq, ham asum-xosum enq ayd masin, ham el gluxners chenq sharzhum avazic durs! Um enq xabum? Kam inch kap uni, te yes hayastanum em tsnvats te che, yete yes hay em. Inch petq e lini, vor veradarnanq Hayastan? Vataguyn depqum mah, tchisht e? Sovic, kam, Astvats mi arasce, paterazmic. Bayc karogh e chenq mernelu??? Vors e anmah?

Gone kimananq mer erkri vochnchacman@ mer artagaghtov chenq npastel. El chem asum myus drakan koghmeri masin. Patkeracnum eq, karavarutyun@ vonc kshshkrvi, yete liq@ mtavorkakan lcvi Hayastan 1-2 mln orinak, :-)! Yev heto, mer, amen mekis arandzin vercrats kyanqn e tank, te Hayastan@? Mi xosqov koch em anum hetevil im orinakin` esteghi apahov kyanq@ toghats mek amsic gnum em Hayastan, aranc voroshaki herankari.

3. HOGATARUTYUN(kam miasnutyun). Arden zhamanakn e vor sksenq aveli ankeghts u erandun hogal irar masin, tekuz yev bolors el idealakan chenq, bolors el terutyunner unenq. Mer ekeghecu masin, avanduytneri, lezvi, mshakuyti, patmutyan, qaghaqakanutyan yev ayln.

 

Yete dzerq dzerqi tanq, shat arag kverakangnvenq. Boloris el da petq e. Bolors el hay enq, nuynn enq, u lavn enq. Yete MENQ enq vat@, uremn ashxarh@ iskapes sut e.

Sa er kartsiqs.

[Guest]

Alpha, I strongly disagree. More on that later, when I have more time

[Guest]

grem ? te chgrem ?

iys e Harts@

che chem grelu .Gitem sirts trakeluya vro im karstiks chem asum sakayn chem grelu !!!

heto kartsum em bavakanin asvets arten yev bavakanin el lav asvets bolort el dzer jisht kormer@unek kspasem verchum asem im xosks . heto chases Natsist es kam Shovinist kam ~~~ . sakayn hima u hima ban chem aselu ./

[Guest]

1. As an Armenian living in Armenia I pesonally don't have problems with defining the necessity of assimilation, because the problem of assimilation is strongly connected with the survival of Armenian state in this region. However, there is a problem of choosing partners for cooperation among the bordering and nearby states, because no country can live in isolation, especially a landlocked country. I'm strongly against any kind of turik influence on Armenian for the time being for well known reasons, so our natural partners can be Russia, Europe and Iran, with consequent cultural influence on Armenia and also in their turn being influeced by Armenian culture (as a small example: increasing popularity of duduk-Armenian flute in Europe, USA etc.).

2. The problem of assimilation in the Armenian Diaspora has a totally different basis. This is a problem of preserving etnic tradition and psychology in unnatural surrounding with different mentality. I think that for every disaporian Armenian the question of professional success must be on first place, because in other case, in the case of ruined life, everything loses its meening. A poor and unsuccesfull Armenian can do nothing not only for his country, but even for his own family, children, wife, and this is definitly a non-traditional Armenian situation.

3. I'm sure one day Armenia will become a developed state, because at present the whole world moves in this diretion and no single place can remain untouched by the progress, especcialy a geographically important place like Armenia. So, if Diasporians or their children will one day come back to Armenia, they better have the basics of local mentality to once more assimilate with the local Armenians.

[Guest]

es arten prtsak ? dzen hanek yerb prtsnek .

[Guest]

To reiterate what I've already said, as well as hit a few points made....

 

Assimilation IS essential to success (alpha). The Jews and Indians you speak of...Let's look at their case. Are they Jews and Indians in the workplace? I think not. They're Americans, members of a corporate team, even within your own firm. Their ethnic identity takes second stage in this setting. Sociologists have long agreed that identity is a multi-faceted idea. It takes on different forms in different settings. For example, in the workplace, one can be a securities analyst ), in the home, a brother and a son. Same with ethnic identity. Depending on the context, we accentuate different aspects of our identity. Of course the Jews and Indians are Jews and Indians, but not at work. I think it's pretty much the same deal with Armenians. Can you, for example, afford to be Armenian at work? You'll say yes, lol, but I know you know you can't afford that. Not if you want to compete.

 

Now, Mrs. Doctor. I take definite issue with your comments on Armenian youth in the US. I'd like to note that as in everything, "lavn u "vate" is a relative concept. What might be "lave" to you might be "vate" to me and vice versa. So you don't like open mindedness, do you? Well, let me ask you: where would we be if no one had been open minded enough to accept Copernicus's ideas--thinking that the world is flat; where would we be if Armenians hadn't been open minded enough to allow the spread of your beloved monotheistic faith--pagans; etc etc. I don't think anyone can argue the benefits of open mindedness. However, as in all things, it brings with it its negatives. I won't argue that, either. We just have to keep in mind that nothing can be thought of in terms of black and white, but rather shades of gray.

I'd like to also address the nationalistic call for unity as a means to a brighter future for Armenia. Well, my friend, keep dreaming. I know that's harsh wording, and I apologize. But from what I've seen of Armenians, there can be no hope of unity. Simple example: 2 Hispanic ladies on the bus, 2 more sit nearby. They exchange hellos and by the time they leave they've established friendships!!...now, by contrast, 2 armenian ladies on the bus, 2 more get on, the first 2 start gossiping about the second 2 and vice versa, etc. Is this what you call unity? I know you'll say it's an isolated example, but it's not. It's the state of things among armenians in general right now, at least as i've observed it. One more comment: Armenians are a brainless bunch as a group, as a nation (and i'd include myself and my family in that statement). You'd think they would have had enough years of economic hardship, you'd think they'd rise up and put some real leaders in the government, but no...they (we) just sit and wait...or we leave the country. You might hate me for saying that, you might think I don't love Armenia enough, but I can't describe how much it pains me to say that, to think it even. Amot mez vor menk mez hayenk asum, nmanatsnum mer paperin. That's all I have to say on that subject.

 

Now I'm getting all emotional, so I think I'll quit..lol

 

Gayane

[Guest]

Kartsumem shat hetakrker knnarkumner exan,bayts em hamozmamb sa vertcha che,inchpes ostap bendera kaser,"Sa vertchne aratchen seryaye usanox ",Hima me kane xosk asvatsnere veraberyal,erok djvar hartse ev vorosh texerum pite hamatsaynvem integratsman anhrajeshtutyuna kam vor anhnare ayn kangnetsnel,inchpes evolutyan chenk karox kangnetsnel.Aystex shat me hatakrker mitk hnchets(voren e dep shat ei spasum)."AZGAYEN GAXAPARAXOSUTYUN" vor em kartsekov shat karevore,ete em kartsekov chenk usum nmanvenk evropaye vitchaken,vor em kartsekov ahavore,hamozvatsem vor amenashata 100 tare heto evropayum chen line germanatsener(voronk e dep jamanaken hamozumein vor erenk areakan azgen),fransiatsener,italatsener... ayl boloren kkotchven uxake evropatsener,duk patkeratsnum ek vor amboxtch kovaksyan joxovurdneren anvanen kovkastener,vratse,hay,turk......

Ayo hents aystex petke hishel"AZGAYEN GAXAPARAXOSUTYAN" masen vora nshvets aystex(vora eharke petke mshakve karavarakan makardakov)>Es aystex pakas tex chem tales mer AZGAYEN krtarannere der@,vor@ em kartsekov himk@ pite handesana mer "AZGAYEN GAXAPARAXOSUTYAN"(vertch e vertcho ete xosumenk apaga 100 tarenere masen,apa aysorva manuka mez petke narkayatsne ambxotxh asxaren)ev amen intch petk e sksve nranets.

Shatere mot ayn kartsekne vor menk hayeres erbek chenk karox orenakan petutyun unenal,vor aysorva anorenakanutyunnera vor texe unenum hayastanum mer hayeres mexkne(vore metch em kartsekov npatakove arvum),votch te orenknere batsakayutyan,uxake pite mexanesm mshakve,vor votch te mardek petke xekavaren orenknera(incpes arvume aysor hayastanum),ayl orenk@ xekavare mardkants(inchpes arvume bolor zargatsats erkrnerum),eharke karelie erkar xosel ays temaye shurtj,bayts ekek nor "hetsanev"chaytnaberenk,asxarum @undunvats karg ka vor petutyuan metch 3(gortsader,sahamanader ev datakan) marmenner pite linem voronk pite karavaren petutyuna,ev eharke petke aynpes anel vor ays 3 marminnera mek@ myusets kaxvats chlinen,vor@ em kartsekov hnavore hasnel(eharke aystex petke ogtagortse asxare ports@),ayskanov avatumem,husovem klinen ele nor hayatskner.

[Guest]

As someone from an extremely complicated background, I deal with this question of assimilation on a daily basis. I refuse to assimilate, either into the Armenian or the American, or even the Iranian culture. I accomodate, big difference. Assimilating to me means losing something, and I don't want to lose anything, I want to have it all! My cake and eat it too, why not? I can listen to Googoosh, Nune, and Johnny Cash all in the same half hour without seeing anything strange in it. I know it may seem schizophrenic to some, and maybe it is, can't help it, I AM A HALF BREED.

 

The world better get used to people like me, because there are more and more of us, people who are fully bi-cultural, who refuse to assimilate into either culture. Like it or lump it!

[Guest]

Gayane, yes el em mtatsum, vor lavn u vat@ iskapes haraberakan en. Patahum e, vor chem karoghanum inqnuruyn tarberel sev@ spitakic kam qo asats mug moxraguyn@ bac moxraguynic. Ayd depqerum sovorabar andradarnum em mer havatqin. Vorovhetev chunem indz hamar aveli mets heghinakutyun, aveli vstaheli ban, qan Surb Girq@.

Yes el em gnahatum mtqi bacutyun@, vor@ kartsem bnorosh e mez, hayeris. Bayc yes karandznacnei mtqi bacutyun@ mtqi sandzarcakutyunic. Amen inch chapi mej e lav. Namakis mej tvarkum ei bacasakan tendencner@, voronq hima i hayt en galis mer eritasardutyan mej. Ayd tendencner@ henc mtqi sandzarcakutyun em hamarum.

Gayane jan, du gites, inch kuzes mtatsi qo yev qo tsagman kam voraki masin. Inch verabervum e hayeri “anugheghutyan@”, apa xostanum em hamadzaynvel qez het, bayc miayn ayn banic heto, yerb ashxarhi bolor mnacats zhoghovurdneri hamar kmshakvi hamapatasxan atsakan.

Ete du qo srtum, qo hogum unes voreve bari cankutyun qo zhoghovrdin, hayreniqin, apa kgeradasei ayd masin xosel, yev yete qo cankutyunner@ hamnknen myusneri cankutyan het, karogh enq pntrel tchanaparhner, hasnelu dranc. Mi shtapir datel te menq lavn enq kam vat@, che vor bacarvats che, vor karogh es sxalvel. Der bolors el yeritasard enq, kyanqners arjevum. Guce skzbi hamar mi ogtakar ban porcenq anel, guce stacvi? Te che vorakumner tal@, kam asel@ erazi, vnas che, da heshtn e, bolorn el karogh en. Cgitem Balzakin inchpes es verabervum, kuzei krknel nra xosq@. “Ov milionner e pntrum - hazvadep e gtnum. Na, ov chi pntrum, yerbeq el chi gtnum”.

Indz, qez yev mnacats bolor hayerin dzerq e talis unenal shenacats hayreniq tchisht e, Gayane? Henc dra masin e xosqs, urish ban chem asum. Ekeq mtatsenq inch kareli e anel. Isk um dzerq chi talis, togh voch el xarnvi, da mer yev miayn mer andznakan gortsn e.

Mi ban el asem: kartsem te assimilacian xarnum es adaptaciayi het. Im kartsiqov assimiliacian da azgayin demqi lriv korustn e, yev ashxatavayrum, yev tan@, yev amenur. Qo asats@ kartsem te da che, ayl otar mijavayrin harmarvel@ hajoghutyan hasnelu npatakov (aysinqn adaptacia), voch te azgayin demqi kataryal korust. I dep otarneri nkatmamb strkamtutyun@ (vori masin grel ei) berum e henc assimiliaciyi, isk mtqi bacutyun@ - adaptaciayi.

[Guest]

Hetakarker mtkeres artahaytum MRS DOCTOR,es hpart em vor der goyutyun unen ko nman hayuhener,hetakrkere kane tarekanes? ev inchoves zbaxvum?

[Guest]

Half Breed preach on brother.