Azat Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 What does all this have to do with Saroyan? Can you guys please move all this out of this thread. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Garo, Please transfer these posts not having to do with Saroyan to a new thread. As for you Juggs, take off your blinders. Have you ever studied the changes Christianity went through in it's early days or you a blind follower like Artur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted March 7, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Yeah I agree, why don't we talk more about his works rather than who he married (sorry!) and about religion and genocide. What if he married a green alien?? :razz: besides, that first wife lied to him. She said she was an armenian then confessed she was jewish after the marriage and children. He left her because of the lie then went back to her. Can you imagine such deceit? And that picture of him in 1941! Oh mama! I wish I were born 80 years earlier.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Kazza, You are DREAMING with your story about Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau. Also, FYI Wille was married twice and both times to this same woman.Wille married a blond New York socialite by the name of Carol Marcus. Give me a break, do you know any MARCUSIANS! My Mom knew these people. There was NO WAY that Willie would think they were HYES. Have you been smoking that hashish lately, or is it too much sex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted March 7, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Kazza, You are DREAMING with your story about Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau. It's true. quote:Also, FYI Wille was married twice and both times to this same woman.Wille married a blond New York socialite by the name of Carol Marcus. Give me a break, do you know any MARCUSIANS! My Mom knew these people. There was NO WAY that Willie would think they were HYES. Have you been smoking that hashish lately, or is it too much sex?Yes... to Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau. I think he didn't know. He found out then went back to her. What do you think is this unique difference between Hyes and Marcusians that Willie would not tell the difference between them? Everybody can make a simple mistake you know! 1) No, hashish latley, I'm far too poor I don't work anymore only study. 2) I've been celibate for two years. Out of interest are you Hye yourself? [ March 07, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Kazza ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted March 7, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Are these Marcusians? marcusians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Yes Kazza, I am HYE, well almost 100% HYE, and as disgusted with the Arturs and Tigrannes IIIs as you are. As for Willie, how could you date a woman, mingle with her family and friends and not know that she was a Jew? Are you saying that Willie was a dummy? My Mom saw these people on a weekly basis. Willie was a 30-something male whose thinking was being controlled by his "brain" below his belt. Carol was exceptionally beautiful and 18. So this Armenian icon was head over heels in love. Do you think that he really cared about her ethnic or religious background? Besides, even if he didn't realize that she was Jewish the first time around, he only married once more and to this same woman. The "he didn't know" myth is being circulated by certain arch-conservative vindictive Armenian traditionalists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted March 7, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Yes Kazza, I am HYE, well almost 100% HYE, and as disgusted with the Arturs and Tigrannes IIIs as you are. As for Willie, how could you date a woman, mingle with her family and friends and not know that she was a Jew? Are you saying that Willie was a dummy? My Mom saw these people on a weekly basis. Willie was a 30-something male whose thinking was being controlled by his "brain" below his belt. Carol was exceptionally beautiful and 18. So this Armenian icon was head over heels in love. Do you think that he really cared about her ethnic or religious background? Besides, even if he didn't realize that she was Jewish the first time around, he only married once more and to this same woman. The "he didn't know" myth is being circulated by certain arch-conservative vindictive Armenian traditionalists.Oh thank you Hagarag! (What does Hagarag mean in english? Is in armenian? Is that your real name? Just out of interest. It is idiotic of A and T isn't it. They don't realise you can be a good armenian without the heavy traditionalism. Well I hope his thinking was like that, it's normal. Though I wouldn't think it was CONTROLLED like that, he was a great man with his mind on other things too (My perfect man!) *sigh* but enough of that. William Saroyan was certianly not a dummy. He was one of the greatest geniouses the world has known. But geniuses can have their weak and vulnerable areas that make up for it. Well it makes sence it would be circulated by Armenian traditionalists. They didn't want people to think one of their own would happily marry odar. Or mabye Willie and the Beauty threw that story at the in the beginning to throw them off in the first place! He was an icon in the armenian community and that might put him in disfavour among their stict ideals, jeopordising his growing career. That would be silly, and she would be young/impressionable to go along with it. Admittedly I don't really know the full story, but these are just ideas. You wouldn't find the real story off off the Internet. It doesn't matter anyway. Was she intelligent though? Who knows now. But if he saw me he'd fancy me more! Anyway, take the time to research some of his stories! I must delete that horrible signature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Kazza, "Hagarag" means "against the grain" in Armenian. It is what my parents would call me. My original handle was Khodja, the title of my great-grandfather, but that name elicited a lot of hostility from certan Armenians here. I guess that if you have business dealings with Turks and become extremely wealthy, then you are considered a sellout. Do not let these traditionalist bozos disturb your mind. Live your life as you see fit. I passed up marriage with all the loves of my life to marry an Armenian from an arch-conservative Armenian family. I did not find happiness. Life is too short to listen to the Arturs and Tigrannes III's of this world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Mehmet, Go to hell, You and Your Jewish ancestors together with all Hasans, Mehmets, Mohamets, and the rest ibrikchis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 GAmavor jan ?? inch patahets barekam ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by gamavor:Mehmet, Go to hell, You and Your Jewish ancestors together with all Hasans, Mehmets, Mohamets, and the rest ibrikchis...thats a warning for you...LOL.....racist F#%$#% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 KAZZA JAN!!!!!!!!Ches haskenar? MARCUS is a Jewish surname. There are no Marcusians, Markarians yes, MARCUSIANS no! Just as there are no Cohenians, Goldsteinians, etc. But we do have Israelians. It is preposterous to state that Willie Saroyan, an internationally acclaimed writer steeped in the usage of the English language did not understand totally that the woman he was marrying was Jewish.That this Armenian icon passed up all the Armenian women to marry Carol Marcus, TWICE and never remarrying a third time is very upsetting to Armenian traditionalists. I can recall the comments made by one serpent-tongued Newport Beach Armenian matron about Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau. Ditto the comments that I have heard Jewish women make about Arlene Francis for catching a handsome Jewish actor/producer. Women can be much more vicious than men to other women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Gamavor in Houston and the Turks in Bitlis and Ankara, SAME AS ONE!!!!!!!Foaming at the mouth.Baliozian has written volumes on Armenians like Gamavor!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted March 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Yeah, true, do as you see fit. I'm very lucky to have a mother like mine, although she is strict and traditional (Greek) she would never make me or my brother marry against our wishes. So I've been brought up with the attitude to do whatever makes me happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Hagarag, I am sorry to say this, but you are leaving an impression of a grumpy old man who has achieved little in life (compared to his ancestors/relatives/friends) and has turned to blame his brethren for his troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut:Hagarag, I am sorry to say this, but you are leaving an impression of a grumpy old man who has achieved little in life (compared to his ancestors/relatives/friends) and has turned to blame his brethren for his troubles.======== DROOOOOONE, DRONE!!!In all senses of the word.1. A constant and at times an annoying noise. One Armenian word to describe this is "bzzyun". In musical terms, just like the bagpipe where one is assigned as a "drone" to keep a constant monotonous low tone, duduk is also usually played by two players one of which keeps the "dam", the monotonous drone. Hence the inferred definition of the word as a "monotonous and annoying noise". 2. A sterile and fruitless male bee whose only mission in life is to toil, service the queen bee, or the Sultan as it may, and die. We meet the likes every day. They cannot get over the fact that those "idiots", the likes of Varouzhan, Siamanto and Zohrab disrupted their dronelike lives in Istanbul. All they wanted was to be left in peace, eke a living and pay taxes to the Sultan so he can make more weapons. Grigor Zohrab describes them in his novella Jitin Partk@ so aptly. See the site below.http://www.iatp.am/resource/artcult/zohrab/armzoh.htmI have even met people who at the aftermath of the Earthquake and the unbeareably hard times during the struggle for Artsakh were ready to give it all up with words like "What the hell are they still doing in that God forsaken piece of rock? Why don't they all leave, go to Europe, come to America or even 'Istabul'? We had such a peaceful and propsperous life until those idiots came up with the idea of a homeland and independence!!!" Hagarag may have done one right thing, choosing his nickname. His constant drone is a feeble attempt to blame everything and everybody for the fruitless failure he is. He should consider moving back to Istanbul and pick up where his ancestors left. Shame! Shame! They were rudely uinterupted. One question. Hagarag why did your ancestors leave Istanbul? Many stayed behind. Were they looking for even more prosperity in Europe and America?DRONE, DRONE and more DRONE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Interesting that I am barraged by you two in this thread. Since you do not have the evidence to attack the message, you choose to attack the messenger. Who I am and my station in life is immaterial to the issues that have been discussed in this thread. That my comments have gotten under some people's skin gives me great pleasure.I have shaken your smug perceptions which are TOTALLY jaded. I can assure you that I am highly educated and have won many professional awards in my career. My problem is with the perceptions of the majority of Armenians engendered by a generally Middle-Eastern born and backward looking clergy. I will drone on until in an attempt to see Armenians break out of their traditional straight-jacket. Furthermore, you know NOTHING of my ancestors, who they were or what they stood for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 So Arpa, Was your grandfather a close friend and confidant of the one you revere, Zohrab, as was mine? Was your grandmother sharing personal correspondence and conversation with is daughter Dolores Zohrab Liebmann? I am sick and tired of the Armenian approach that in order to be heard one has to be prominent. You are so very transparent, a typical narrow-minded Armenian who slavishly follows whaever his Der Hayr preaches, even if the Der Hayr is just an Arabized Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Mehmet, Thoth and the rest of the liberals: This thred is about Saroyan. It is not about his wife, nor it is about your respective ancestors and their professions. Mehmet, Your Armenian wife made a great mistake by marring such a miserable creachear like you. May God have mercy for you and those alike you.I will pray for you in my spare time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Hagarag you remind me of the old Armenian folk who gather at the local shopping center for their daily gossip/politics/how to cheat the system session. The only difference between them and you is that you have read a few (not many) books and has enough money to buy a PC. As for your 'message', its just one complaint after another, nothing constructive, your only role to me seems to degrade the greatness of this nation. And it matters little to me weather Saroyans wife was a Jew, a chimp or an octopus. Why dont you go get circumsized and be over and done with it. Then you can forget about us (who dont appreciate you enough) and glorify your new co-religionists. [ March 08, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Juggernaut ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 9, 2002 Report Share Posted March 9, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:So Arpa, Was your grandfather a close friend and confidant of the one you revere, Zohrab, as was mine? Was your grandmother sharing personal correspondence and conversation with is daughter Dolores Zohrab Liebmann? I am sick and tired of the Armenian approach that in order to be heard one has to be prominent. You are so very transparent, a typical narrow-minded Armenian who slavishly follows whaever his Der Hayr preaches, even if the Der Hayr is just an Arabized Armenian.I really don't want to get into a debate with as you I suspect that your comprehension is defective. BTW. My grandfather was not a confidant of Zohrab, he could not even write his own name. Name dropping will not get you anywhere. As to your comprehension and the lack thereof, where did you get the impression that I even heed to a DerHayr. For that matter, I have never subscribed to the DerHayr's church, and at the present I don't subscribe to any organized one. I have never heeded to them, neither to their ruperior or to their superiors. Religion seems to bother you. I couldn't care less. As far as I am concerned all the DerHayrs and their ilk can go celebrate Passover with the Rabbis and dance the hora around Jerusalem. Coming back to your comprehesion, if you have read some of posts and still think that I am under the spell of clerics...May be I should write in Hebrew!You need counseling. You must find out why having been born Armenian bothers you so. See if you can get citizenship of TelAviv. This will be my last address to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 9, 2002 Report Share Posted March 9, 2002 My mother was a Judaized Armenian due to her career which brought her into close contact with many Jewish people, most unfamous but some famous, and WASPs who worked in her career, some also famous. I married into an Arabized Armenian family. I would take the few Judaized Armenians over the numerous Arabized Armenians instantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 9, 2002 Report Share Posted March 9, 2002 GAMAVOR! Any story of a famous writer or other celebrity must discuss the WHOLE person. To understand Saroyan you would have to understand the complexities of his nature. His interaction with Carl Marcus involved a large portion of his adult life. He married and divorced her twice and she produced his two children, Aram and Lucy. Armenians like you want to cleanse him of this woman, as if the future wife of Walter Matthau, best friend of Gloria Vanderbilt and Oona Chaplin and daughter of a prominent New York social family needs cleansing. FYI my ex-wife and I are on excellent terms now, having both realized that an odarized Protestant Armenian and a Libanahye do not mix well. To her new husband, a somewhat famous American WASP, she is exotic. To me she was a just a dyed-in-the-wool Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 9, 2002 Report Share Posted March 9, 2002 JUGGS! Sorry to disappoint you but ALL the American males of my era were circumcized as a hygiene measure, so all I have to do to become a Jew is go though a conversion process-no bloodletting necessary. However, by doing such it would let all you Armenians off my hook. You would remain a bunch of ignoramuses in perpetuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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