Arpa Posted June 9, 2002 Report Share Posted June 9, 2002 Aha-bek. The refrain to an old revolutionary song goes; Ay fedayeener, jan fedayeenerDzer mayrer@ dzez ghurban.Sirel gites, krvil chites,Du anirav yeritasard. "fedayee"; seems to have derived from the Arabic/Persian. From the Websters dict. "fedayeen; those who sacrifice themselves, Arab irregulars or guerillas in the Middle East."In the Armenian "fedayee" is usually used to mean "volunteer". It has been said; "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"."Terror/terrorism" seems to be the slogan of the new millenium. Again according to the Websters it seems to derive from the Latin "terrere", "fear". One is referred to the French Revolution and the so called Reign of Terror where the term may have gained popular usage. See insert below.========== Reign of TerrorOn July 27, 1793, Robespierre was elected to the Committee of Public Safety, where his power and prestige grew. The dangers of foreign invasion and the urgent need to maintain order and unity led the committee to inaugurate the Reign of Terror. Although it was a collective effort, the name of Robespierre is always associated with it because of his prominence on the committee. Robespierre opposed both the extreme left, under Jacques Hébert, and the moderates, led by Georges Danton and Camille Desmoulins. Each group was in turn arrested and guillotined (Mar.–Apr., 1794). By this time, however, Robespierre's position was becoming precarious; he was faced by divisions within the Committee of Public Safety and by opposition from the Plain in the Convention. The establishment of a new civic religion, partly to combat the atheism of the Hébertists, also provoked criticism. For more on the subject refer to;http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0860754.html============The dictionary does not go any further but I could not help but see the root word of "terre/terra" that simply means land/earth. I wonder if the word has anything to with the "scorched earth" tactic, and that "terror/terrorism" derived from an old Roman war tactic of destruction and pillage. "Terra Destructa"??? The Armenian for "terror-ism" is "aha-bekum/aha-bekchutyun". The word is composed of "ah" and "bek". "ah" as in "ah u sarsap", fear and panic, and "bek/bekanel" to cut, to break. (Also note the similarity of "ah" to the Eglish word "awe").As mentioned above; One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. This is no more evident than in the Armenian. "aha-bekich", literally- "breaker of terror" which implies a defensive posture rather than and offensive one as the Latin term suggests. In the latter the term implies an infliction of terror/fear while in the Armenian it rather suggests a defense against terror, breaking the cycle of terror. It is a known fact that Armenian history has been and still is one of "defense" and very little "offense", no wonder our term to describe the phenomenon would imply breaking, preventing terror. It has and still is a full time job. It is a job, there is no shame in work. Let others say what they will. We will do whatever neccessary to "break the cycle of "terror" AH-A-BEKUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 However... while the linguistic insights are interesting, they are neither reflective nor explanatory in the context of Armenian terror subject to discussions. Except in the case of the killing of General-Governor Golitsin by Drastamat Kanaian in early 20th century, the Armenian Terror has always been an instrument of not "breaking the terror," and never has been of "cutting the terror." It has been a questionable instrument of achieving political results - however justifiable the goals might have been. This is especially true in the context of ASALA and its competitor established under the auspices of ARF. Both organizations are notorious for being financed and led by foreign sources, especially sources hostile in their essence to the Armenian interests. Both organizations have attached the term "Liberation of Armenia" to their name, but it has been an illusion for the "week-minded" It is obvious that neither their handwriting nor the publicity they have generated could not in any possible way serve the purpose of the liberation of Armenia. Additionally, the very insinuation of "Liberation of Armenia" in their ideology has been fictitious because to this day they have not clarified which Armenia were they planning to liberate, how and from whom. Additionally, as interpreted currently, the activities of these organizations have been rather directed at raising "public awareness" of Armenian Genocide issues, and at bringing the "Armenian Cause to the forefront." I would contemplate again that these organizations have had nothing to do with the "Liberation of Armenia" and as far as "the raising of public awareness was concerned" they could have just pored gasoline on themselves in the Time Square, per se, and had put themselves into the flames in the name of the "Liberation of Armenia." In such case, I would have found them more courageous. BTW, I am not aware of them executing actions against the Turkish military bases, per se, or let's say against the Turkish Generals, which I would have considered as a perhaps brave manifestation of an ongoing war. All their actions have been directed at some Diplomats - civilians. Go figure how does one liberate a country this way... Additionally, I would have at least expected from them, in the tradition of Tehlerian, that after their action, they would have stood on the spot waiting for the police to arrive, and would have used the court for "raising public awareness." However, we have witnessed at least petitions to the heads of the governments to cut their sentences short, since "they have been unjustifiably framed." Of the two organizations referenced above, especially the second one has been established so that ARF doesn’t lose its "aura" of the "Liberator of Armenia" in the eyes of certain circles of Diaspora, which itself attests to the fact that it has been done out of dirty internal considerations. The term "fedayee," or better to say the category of "fedayee," deserves additional attention, I believe. First of all, for the real solders-liberators of Armenia, the term "fedayee" has never been a dignified title. I know many solders of Armenian Army who even prior to the establishment of the Armenian Statehood have negated their belonging to the "fedayess," and have always presented themselves as Solders of Liberation/Defense of Armenia. The mere term "fedayee" has generated in their minds/hearts full rejection and feeling of disgust, and they have felt insulted being called "fedayees." And indeed, when you look at the real face of "fedayess," these have been the problem of our first Republic and have played a major part in its destruction, and these "brave fedayees" are the source of problems of our contemporary Republic, by establishing reign of terror and lawlessness, there. Most importantly, if a nation cannot grow to the level of cultivating its Army, but will in the 21-st Century cultivate this repugnant category of leftovers of other countries unsuccessful military campaigns, that nation will only demonstrate that it is not ready for Sovereignty and it cannot sustain Sovereignty. Moreover, it would not deserve Sovereignty. However, I am sure that there are adequate numbers of clear minds to introduce, in the course of time, clarity in the list of Armenian priorities and to define what the Armenian Cause means in the first place. Finally, another point of mine is that even if we would erroneously presume that the Armenian Terror has served the aspiration of the Liberation of Armenia, we have to keep in mind that the way you liberate your country, that's the type of State you establish. I doubt that this is what we want. Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I have only one functional arm for the time being, and it is difficult to be more elaborate and “politically more correct.” [ June 16, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: MJ ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 17, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Dear MJ However... while the linguistic insights are interesting, they are neither reflective nor explanatory in the context of Armenian terror subject to discussions. Although I maintain that the verbal structure may be indicative of our culture of "reaction" rather than "pro-action" the word may also be interpreted to mean Ah and Bek, i.e to inflict fear and destruction. Except in the case of the killing of General-Governor Golitsin by Drastamat Kanaian in early 20th century, the Armenian Terror has always been an instrument of not "breaking the terror," and never has been of "cutting the terror." It has been a questionable instrument of achieving political results - however justifiable the goals might have been. This is especially true in the context of ASALA and its competitor established under the auspices of ARF. Both You're right about the latter day fiascos, it is not unlike some other people of the ME that " hit the saddle" since they have no access or power to "hit the donkey". However, I was rather referring to our entire history, particularly to the pre 19th and 20th centuries. The only pro-active terrorism to our credit may be Tigran the Great's conquest. Some also claim that we overwhelmed the Urartians and other indigenous people of the region. Ever since then we have constantly been been in the business of damage control. We never attacked the Assyrian Empire , they attacked us.We never attacked the Roman Empire, they attacked us. We never terrorized the Persian Empire, they terrorized us. We never declared war on the Greeks and Byzantians. We never invaded Arab lands they invaded ours. We never took land from the Turks, they took from us. And the list goes on. And even now we are still trying to prove who terrorized whom during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, once again attempting to "break the cycle of terror", and not particularly succeeding at that either. Perhaps we have to invent another word to reflect a premeptive "ahabekum" and reverse my definition of the word to mean "creating terror" rather than "breaking terror" that seems to have failed us. That will not happen until we have the power. Until then, as that great American philosopher said; "Walk softly and carry (fashion)a big stick". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:The only pro-active terrorism to our credit may be Tigran the Great's conquest. Tigran's conquest was as gentle as 'empire building' can be. He filled the power vacuum created by the chaotic collapse of the Seleucid rule to his south. He was basically invited to take over and impose some order. Tigran failed badly in his first 'real' battle test, against a Roman army that was significantly smaller in numbers. quote:Some also claim that we overwhelmed the Urartians and other indigenous people of the region.There is no evidence for that. The 'invader' theory is nothing more than a presumption. quote:Ever since then we have constantly been been in the business of damage control.True enough. Regardless of individual Armenians' characters, our collective nature has been gentle and peaceful. I do not lament that though. The immediate challenge is not terror, terrorism, or even war. It is to extract out excessive crookery and corruption from the Armenian society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 17, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote:Originally posted by Arpa:The only pro-active terrorism to our credit may be Tigran the Great's conquest. Tigran's conquest was as gentle as 'empire building' can be. He filled the power vacuum created by the chaotic collapse of the Seleucid rule to his south. He was basically invited to take over and impose some order. Tigran failed badly in his first 'real' battle test, against a Roman army that was significantly smaller in numbers.That may be true. It may also have been the only time when one supreme commander gathered not only the Armenian warlords under one emblem but also non Armenian troops. The point I was making was, we have never gathered around a single flag and initiated an action. Our shas always bee a "reaction", even when Vardananak almost gathered around a single commander it was resistence and defense rather than offense. Always a reaction rather than an action. quote:Some also claim that we overwhelmed the Urartians and other indigenous people of the region.There is no evidence for that. The 'invader' theory is nothing more than a presumption.It is not only a prusumption but a nasty propaganda that the Turks want us and the world to believe. Their point is; You conquered and appropriated in your turn, now it is our turn. You were invaders too and the "pot cannot call the kettle black" quote:Ever since then we have constantly been been in the business of damage control.True enough. Regardless of individual Armenians' characters, our collective nature has been gentle and peaceful. I do not lament that though. The immediate challenge is not terror, terrorism, or even war. It is to extract out excessive crookery and corruption from the Armenian society.True. Our immediate goal is nation building and gathering strength to at least not lose any more. Gaining (back) will come later. Things change. We must be prepared. Whoever thought that the mighty USSR would fall so fast. Empires do fall. We must be ready to not be caught with "our pants down" again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Dear Arpa, Thank you for the spirit of your reply. I agree with many of the points you make there. Speaking of our “later day fiascoes” and our confusion between “the saddle and the donkey,” I think it is another manifestation of our national mass psychosis – not the fact of the terror itself, since one can find enough confused- romantics or idiots in any nation. The problem is in its subsequent assessment and in taking pride in it by the others. I also wanted to make a remark on the subject of all the nations that “took our land, and we didn’t take theirs.” I think you might’ve forgotten to develop on the subject of the Byzantine. In my strong opinion Byzantine has been the most vicious enemy of Armenia, and we owe Byzantine for the distraction of Armenia for more than a millennium to come. Arabs, Persians and, especially the Turks, have been sort of an inertia put in motion by the Byzantine Empire and the nation representing it, if any. I think it is important to recognize it (btw, I find remarkable one of the best hidden pages of the Armenian history, which is the rebellion of our compatriots in the 9th century and the establishment of de-facto independence for about a century in both sides of the Byzantine-Arab demarcation line). This subject may evolve quite extensively and invite a lot of discussions – perhaps in another thread outside the Language forum. However, it is hard for me to do it now, since I am recovering after an extensive (right) shoulder surgery (after breaking it badly while playing basketball - so much fun, right?) and I am not supposed to do typing, for another 2-3 weeks, I think. Btw, I consider Tigran the great not to be Great after all, and to the contrary, to be very short-sighted, week and adventurer king – nothing to be so much proud of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 by MJ ->"I have only one functional arm for the time being" Martin jan inch asem join the clab dzaxna te aj@ ??? yes arden 4rd shabatna et orii em . es shabat verchin virahatutyuna yev verch mnuma apaqinvem... Movses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MosJan:by MJ ->"I have only one functional arm for the time being" Martin jan inch asem join the clab dzaxna te aj@ ??? yes arden 4rd shabatna et orii em . es shabat verchin virahatutyuna yev verch mnuma apaqinvem... MovsesAj@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 quote:Originally posted by sen_vahan: Many non-Armenian historians mention the Armenian-Byzantine relations. What is important is that they consider Armnia to be a part of the Empire. Moreover, there were Byzantine Kings of Armenian origin. Did some of them do something for Armenia?Is that possible that they were even worse?If you think Tigran was not a strong King (and I agree) then Armenia has never had its own empire. More than 3000 years of history and not a single empire. I guess we can only be a part of an empire or a strong country. A peacful nation cannot have a strong blossoming country under its own rulers. I do hope we have the future but the long Armenian history tells me another thing. When an Armenian gets some political power (for example, Byzantine Kings of Armorigin) he becomes loyal TO HIS COUNTRY. Stupid Armenian loyalty.Of coarse Armenian has been part of the Byzantine empire for centuries. Additionally, many non-Armenian historians consider also the early Armenian culture as part of the Byzantine culture, and this is why in many modern museums you would see Armenian exhibits demonstrated in the Byzantine section. Some of the Armenian Emperors of Byzantine persecuted Armenians at the time very severely. Why does Armenia need an Empire? And sure it basically Armenia has never had an Empire. I don't think that our only realm of existence is as a part of another "Empire," though realistically speaking this is our history, and I think we never have managed in history to be a Sovereign nation, but rather have for few episodes attempted to become one. I also find your last statement on "LOYALTY" somewhat not bearing the necessary content. If not for anything else, at least because it would have been more meaningful if you would have also articulated on the subject of what happens when an Armenian 'gets power' in his own country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 18, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Dear MJ, Vahan, Moderators et alYou contributions to the subject have been very educational and profitable. However it may be time that the subject be moved to its proper location, History, under a more apropos subject topic so that we may delve deeper into it. How is "Empire Building"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Arpa jan - don - MOvses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Martin jan arorjutyun em tsankanum !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 ASALA - yete isk@zbaner nayenq ASLA stertsman@ AYF yev kam urish HAykakan kazmakerputyuner@ garapar angam chuneyin n@ra stertsman masin, iyn sksvel e Hakob Hakobyani ( Julfa Hakob ) kormits, Hakob@ inq@ parestinyan sharjman arachin orerits miyak zinavajarnerits mekn er vor n@rants apahovum er zenqov, jamanaki @endhatskum yerb parestin/izrayel paterazm@ tsavallvets yev @endgrkets nayev Libanan@ yev mi qani HAyabnak taramaser Hakob@ iys jamanak zenqov er apahovum nayev Haykakan xmbavorumnerin voronts miyak n@patakn er pashtpanel irenst tner@ - porotsner =- jamanak @endhatskum yev PKK arajarkov Hakob@ havaqets mi poqer HAyeri xumb vorn katarum er pkk yev libanani poqer handznararutyuner yev zenqi terapoxutyamb er zbarvats - jamanaki @edhatskum yerb iys Hayer@ sksetysiin iyster iynter tarber handznararutyuner katarelu yev anun hanetsin vorpes HAy MAhapartrner - bazmativ urish HAyordiner nayev andamagrvetsin iys sharjman@ - skzbits anvanelov Gurgen Yanikyani anunov vorn 1975 tvakanin USA / CA / Santa BArbara qaraqi arvardzanerum - Belmot Hotelum 2 turqeri er spanel - kap chunenalov voch mi qaraqakan kusaktsutyan - xmbaki het - mi qich manramasn asem Gurgen YAnikyani masin - Gurgen YAnikyan vorn tsnvel e PatmakanHayastanum / nerkayis turqya / arhestavori @!entanikum / poqer hasakits akanates e yerel turq-brnutyan@ - ir achqi ara turq zinvorner@ glxatel en ir yerbor@ - yerb inq@ yev ir mayr@ yerbor het miyasin irents gyur eyin veradarstel gaxtagori gisherov @entanekan harstutyuner@ vertsnelu hamar - sovorel yev k@rtutyun e statsel rusastanum - bnakvel tiflisum , MAsnagitutyamb Janaparashinarar, Xorhrdayin miyutyan arachin tariunerin - Gtsagrel yev rekavarel rusastani bazmativ janaparhner yev yerkathgtsy kayaraner yev hanguytsner - vori hamar iren petutyun@ artonutyuner e tvel hangist janaparhordelu Sovet Miyutyan mej yev artasahmanum - ir Parsik barekami het kaper hastateluts heto hajorvel e iren paxchel yev hastatvel Parskastanum ur karj jamanakum - noroits mets hajorutyuneri hasnelov - sksel ir shinararakan Co. - Teharni -isfahan - yev bazmativ qaraqneri janaparhneri karutsmen yev rekavarmen gorts vstahvel e iren, 1942 tvakanits yerb paterazmi dajan tarinern eyin n@ran vstahve el PArsits tsvots minjev HAyatsan yerkathgtsy shinararutyun@ - vorn Hayastanin petq er inchpes od@ yev jur, qanzi Fashistakan germanyan arden isk hasel er stalingrad uyev HAyastanin yev covkasyan muys petutyunerin ognutyun miyayn yev miyayn karor er parskastani mijotsov gal. Yanikyan@ iys ashxatanq@ ir vra vertsnelov jamanakits shut avartets ashxatanq@ yev i arjans pargevatrvets Parskakan Shahi kormits 2 Parskakan Mek mmilyonanots Arjetomserov - Amerikyan Karavarutyun@ vorn vjarum er yerkathgtsui shinartahutyan hamar YAnikyanin Diplomatik Pasport tsvets yev USA galu hnaravporityun yev ashjxatanq. Tarineri @endhatskum YAnikyan@ parskakstan i janaparhayin system@ mshakets. Terapoxvets USA - berelov ir het ir 3 Gyuter@ - vorits mekn minch hima ogtagortsvum e te janaparhashinararutyuuna - te Zinvorkananeri kormits - iyn tuyl er talis qarandzavi poqer batsvatsqits nayelov voch miyayn Tesnel ambo0rjutyam te inch ka mej2 sakayn nayev hashvarkel senyaki - qarandzavi metsutyun@ yev chapser - na iys gortsiq@ handznets patendi mshakman yev ier tarineri yerazanq@ vorn er FILM n@karel genotsidi masin i katar atsel - vorn n@ran chstatsvets iydpes el, portsel er amen inch nuynisk TUrk mi derasan er gtel vorn xaralu er ir filmum, chstatsvets 1974 na meknets ahyastan yev tarav ir het ir grkeri havakatsun, nvirelov iyn hayastani hanrapetutyan@ portses gtnel ir qroj@, karj jamanak iynter mnalots heto veradarstav USA. rineri @entyhatskum yerb Yanikyanin baxt ewr vijakvel metsamets Pashtonyaneri het tsanoptanalu parsik/ turq / USA / UK / na mi hin t@xtadrami vra xndrel e vor storagren - iys txtadram@ ogtagortselov vorpes Xaiyts na m@tadir er 1 kam 2 turq -pashtonyanerits hashiv lutsel ir yerbor hamar, LA turqakan despanatan@ ashxator turq pashtonyaner@ n@ran @edunuim en yev dnelov tsndats Hayi ter vorn portsum er iys t@rtadram@ tal yev stanal turqkakan Medal ir nveri ter - heshtutyamb xapnvum yev @ennum en ir tsurak@, mi qani amis ants nikyan@ or e nshanakuym yev ter@ ur na it t@xtadram2 oetq er tar turq pashtonyanerin - yev bolmont hotelum n@ran hajorvets iyn... spanelov 2 turq pashtonyanerin na lutstes ir vrej2 yev pqatrast er v@jarel sra hamar oir kayanqov - sakayn iydqan hesht cher linelu voch miyayn dat@ iyl n@ra hajord 10 tarineri kayank@ ur mi sharq sarlataner portselu eyin Gurgeni anun@ ogtagortselov HAy jorovrdi achqin poshi pchelov - datarken n@ranst grpanner@ - yev yerevi inchpes kanon AYF gravets #1 ter karoratsav heshtutyamb ir mets Amnsagreri tsantsi shnorhiv YAnikyanin veragrel iren yev nuynisk Gurgen Yanikyan Found stetsel ur havaqvats $$ minchev iysor el chgitenq te ur en - YAnikyani yerkrod n@patakn er - dataranum dati jamanak / hartsaqnnutyun - patper iropruyun@ yev ashxarhin i tsuyts dnel te inch e patahel ir azgin. sakayn norits inch inch patjarnerov iren iyn shat chhajorvets - qanzi targmanich2 targmanum er iyn inch vor uzum er kasm byuron er tsankanum byuron vor rekavarvats er dashnakneri kormits yev porstum er yerkaratsnel / dz@gdzgel datakan protses@ vorqan hnaravor e yerkar - iys orerin er vor libananum JUlfa Hagopi kormits stertsvats poqerik xumb@ veranvanets inq@ zinq Gurgen YAnikyani xumb anunopv yev andamagrelov bazum HAyYeritasardner sksetsir " HAyrenanver" gorts@ - ogtagortselov HAstani Azatagrutyan drosh@ - korzel $$$ yev metsanal - @endlaynel ir sharjman orrak@ - mi qani turq pashtonyaneri ahabekchutyunerits heto - yerb jorovurd@ skstes @endunel Gurgen YAnikyan Xumbin - AYF - portses "vordegrel" iys xmbakin chimanalov te ov e rekavar@ yev inch e ireniost nerkaystnum iyn - sakayn sa yerkar chtevets - 1980 tvakanerin ASALA xmbi andamner darstsan voch miyayn yeritasard andznazoher iyl nayev tarets - bardzer k=rtutyun unetsor- tarber qaraqakan urrutyuner mardiq - qich ants ASALAN sksets yerkparaktvel yev xmbi andamner@ ov haskanum er te Julfa HAkob@ ogtagortsum e ASALAN yev ir zinvorner@ voch miyayan HAykakan HArsteri iyl nayev PKK yev Izrayeli hramaner@ - anjatvetsin ASALA xmbits, verchiners dem ayin julfa hagopi brnats janaparhits yev n@ra patviratunerits.inch iyd arden kayin bazmativ boqer xmbavorumner ovqer hetevum eyin ASLA janaparhin. Julfa Hagop@ spanvets Izrayeili Gaxtni Gortsakalneri mijotsov - xmbi mnatsats andamer@ kam bantarkvetsin kam el spanvetsin tarber petutyunerum yev tarber depqeri jamanak. Te ASALA inch ogut yev inch vnas e tvel - da djvar e asel , sakayn miyak ban @vor yes em gtnum da ardnatsrel e mer srterum arden moratsvats yev huys@ ktrats mer yerazner - 70 taruineri vreji tsankutyun@ - jorovurd@ tsankanum er tesnel - lsel - vor inchvro mi turq pashtonya 70 tari ants vjarum e ir aryamb ir naxnineri katarats hantsanki hamart - tsankanumer vro mek@ vrej lutser - yev inchvorter iys xmber katarum eyin iyn. isk te qaraqakan hori vra inch vnasner e tvel iyn mez da arden shateris e haytni - ASAL yev muys Haykakan xumberi andamner@ - voch miyayan tvel en zoher iyl nayev iren el zoh en - IYO ZOH en - qani vor havatalov AFY - ASALA rekavarnerin zohel en irents kayanq@ havatalov vo r KAtarum en Surb Gorts yev surb n@poataki hamar - havatalov vor sa e miyak janaparh@ - yerevi te iysor n@ranstits shater@ shat aveli manramasn patmeyin katarvatsneri masin - sakayn te ,mer hay kusaktsakaner@ yev te otar - patviratuner@ karoratsan maqrel heteqer@ yev xmberi andamnerin...karoratsan nayev xeratyurvats paster nerkayatsnel jorovrdin... rineri !@edhatskum mer kusaktsutyunerin hajorvel e korzel korovrdits $$$$ ogtagortselov ASLA yev muys Hye Xmbavorumneri anun@ - sovorakan mi ban Gurgen YAnikyan@ vro Qaraqakanoren Ankax mard er 0 cher patkanum voch mi kusaktsutyan - nuynits Hye Yekeretsin cher hamakrum - n@ra dzerbakalutyunits heto hye xmber@ xmbavorumner - korzetsin milyardavor $$$ Hye jorovrdits - isk hima Gurgen@ tarrvats e gerezmanum - yev n@ra vra nuynisk shirmaqar chka - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 "I also wanted to make a remark on the subject of all the nations that “took our land, and we didn’t take theirs.” I think you might’ve forgotten to develop on the subject of the Byzantine. In my strong opinion Byzantine has been the most vicious enemy of Armenia, and we owe Byzantine for the distraction of Armenia for more than a millennium to come. Arabs, Persians and, especially the Turks, have been sort of an inertia put in motion by the Byzantine Empire and the nation representing it, if any. I think it is important to recognize it (btw, I find remarkable one of the best hidden pages of the Armenian history, which is the rebellion of our compatriots in the 9th century and the establishment of de-facto independence for about a century in both sides of the Byzantine-Arab demarcation line)." Many non-Armenian historians mention the Armenian-Byzantine relations. What is important is that they consider Armnia to be a part of the Empire.Moreover, there were Byzantine Kings of Armenian origin. Did some of them do something for Armenia?Is that possible that they were even worse?If you think Tigran was not a strong King (and I agree) then Armenia has never had its own empire. More than 3000 years of history and not a single empire. I guess we can only be a part of an empire or a strong country. A peacful nation cannot have a strong blossoming country under its own rulers. I do hope we have the future but the long Armenian history tells me another thing. When an Armenian gets some political power (for example, Byzantine Kings of Armorigin) he becomes loyal TO HIS COUNTRY. Stupid Armenian loyalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Originally posted by sen_vahan:[qb] Many non-Armenian historians mention the Armenian-Byzantine relations. What is important is that they consider Armnia to be a part of the Empire. Moreover, there were Byzantine Kings of Armenian origin. Did some of them do something for Armenia?Is that possible that they were even worse?If you think Tigran was not a strong King (and I agree) then Armenia has never had its own empire. More than 3000 years of history and not a single empire. I guess we can only be a part of an empire or a strong country. A peacful nation cannot have a strong blossoming country under its own rulers. I do hope we have the future but the long Armenian history tells me another thing. When an Armenian gets some political power (for example, Byzantine Kings of Armorigin) he becomes loyal TO HIS COUNTRY. Stupid Armenian loyalty.=======Of coarse Armenian has been part of the Byzantine empire for centuries. Additionally, many non-Armenian historians consider also the early Armenian culture as part of the Byzantine culture, and this is why in many modern museums you would see Armenian exhibits demonstrated in the Byzantine section.Some of the Armenian Emperors of Byzantine persecuted Armenians at the time very severely.Why does Armenia need an Empire? And sure it basically Armenia has never had an Empire.I don't think that our only realm of existence is as a part of another "Empire," though realistically speaking this is our history, and I think we never have managed in history to be a Sovereign nation, but rather have for few episodes attempted to become one. I also find your last statement on "LOYALTY" somewhat not bearing the necessary content. If not for anything else, at least because it would have been more meaningful if you would have also articulated on the subject of what happens when an Armenian 'gets power' in his own country========= In one of my posts above I cited all those who attacked us while we have seldom attacked others. Among them I also mentioned Byzantium in passing. I have been keenly aware of their treachery and how they were the ones to drive the "last nail in our coffin" when they entered Ani through the back door, so to speak, while we were deperately trying to defend our "front door" from the invading hordes, and how Byzantium allied with the invading Turks against the Persians, again to our detriment. That was not the first time neither was it the last time that we were betrayed by our so called "soulmates" of the west. We have always perceived them as our soulmates (perhaps a false perception on our part) while all of them have shown interest in Armenia not so much for the sake of the Armenians but for the land as a bridge and a battle ground. We can take each of them at a time and see what their real interest was. Not to forget the cliche about the Russians "wanting Armenia without Armenians". I passed over the Byzantians and our so called "soulmates" to not "rattle any old skeletons in our closet". There are many skeletons in our closets that have been left alone, our histriography is biased, however that bias may have cost us dearly as even today we unconditionally surrender to our "western soulmates", alienate our immediate neighbors to be betrayed time and again by our idols of the west. Perhaps those skeletons should be left undisturbed yet they must also be used to understand world politics as it really is. No one will be be on our side simply because we chose to be the "sacrificial lamb" of the Christian world, nor will they come to our salvatation simply because they like the color of our eyes. Let us see how many times we have been betrayed by our so called allies and perceieved soulmates... In the meantime, here is a bonus for you. Below see the list of Byzantian Rulers who are supposed to be of Armenian heritage.We may find more info about the subject at the site below.========= http://www.arminco.com/hayknet/ellib/know.htm DO YOU KNOW...? That there were 20 emperors of armenian origin Here they are: 1. Morick Oshakanatsi (Mavrikiy) 582-602. 2. Vardan Pikick 711-713. 3. Artavazd - 742-743. 4. Levon (Lion the V) Artsruni - 813-830. 5. Barseg Arsha - kuni (Vasil the I - the founder of armenian Makedonian dinasty) - 867-886. 6. Levon Arshakuni (Lion the VI, philosopher) 886-912. 7. Alexander 912-913. 8. Kons tandin the VII Bagrianorodny 913-959. 9. Romanos Vashtakian (Roman the I) 919-949. Ruled with Konstandin the VII Bagrianororodny). 10. Romanos the II - 959-963. 11. Nikiphor the II Phoka (the Great) - 963-969. 12. Hovanes Chimishk (Ioan Tsimiskhy) 969-976. 13. Vasily the II Bulgaroboyts 976-1025. 14. Konstandin the VIII - 1025-1028. 15. Roman the III 1028-1034. 16. Mikhael Paflagon (Mikhael the IV) - 1034 1041. 17. Mikhael Kalapat (Mikhael the V) - 1041-1042. 18. Konstandin the IX Monomakh - 1042-1054. 19. Teodora the II (Phedora the II) empress - 1054-1056. 20. Mikhael Stratiotik (Mikhael the II) - 1056-1057. ...that among Byzantian military leaders more than eighty were armenians and among them: Sittas (528), Buz (538), Balisarios (545), Nerses (555) Vardan Mamikonian (571), Smbat Bagratouny (582), Atat Khorkhrouny (601), Vardan Pilick (711), Vasack Patrik (741), Musheg Alex (792), Arshavir Patrik (807., Manuel Mamikonian ("Byzantian Ahiless" 830.), Hobgan Kurkuas (941., conquered 1000 cities and was called "the Greatest"), Mlag (Melios), the "Great" (went down in byzantian epos "Diogonis - Akritas" (934), Vard Skleros (976), Vard Pokas (987), Magistros Bagratouny (990), Grigor Taronatsy (996), Nikapor Tsrviz (1022), Levon - Tornick Bagratouny (1047), and others. ...that from 837 till 843 the patriarck of Konstantinopulus was the famous armenian scientist Hoivanes Karahan (loan Grammatick). ...that the founder of an ancientslatinopolsky university of Magnavr was Levon, the great mathematician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 It has been said; “One Man’s terrorist is another’s ….. Staunch ally? First, in addition to Ahabekum/terror a few more Armenian words. One of my dictionaries has chant age, shortank /shortel as synonyms to “blackmail”. Obviously “chantage “ is from the French.. Shortank/shortelշորթանք շորթել are well known words. Another dictionary, in reverse definition says “ahortel” means “to plunder”. Another word is “korzel/կորզել which is interpreted as “to extort”. Short of going into semantics and etymology, let us see who is the terrorist, the blackmailer and the extortionist. is. How many times have we heard those blackmailing extortionists, aka “staunch allies” have “terrorized” the world, including but not only the US Congress. How many times have they threatened to “punish” the US? How many times have they threatened to close the bases? How many have they threatened to “invade Northeren Iraq, aka Kurdistan”, if such and such criteria were not met? Let us imagine that these threats were coming out of Tehran. How fast would they be labeled as part of the “axis of evil” and called a “pariah nation”? Yet, we read in the American media, how whoever sleeps with our mothers, those who rape our mothers are our fathers. Those who have been blackmailing us, extorting zillions of dollars, constantly threatening to close down bases and attack northern Iraq are our “staunch allies”. Only if I knew what kind of Turkish tobacco those in the Pentagon and the Congress are smoking! Who invented the term; The tail wagging the dog”? Who is the dog and who the tail? Who will that fool to remind them the spoken language in Washington is neither Turkish nor it is Hebrew? Didm’t we invade Afghanistan and Iraq simply bases on this kind of rhetoric like; “We will harm America if….” When will the US invade that base at Incirlik to show them who the big bad dog is and who the tail, and teach those dogs the meaning of blackmail, extortion and terrorism.? It is all in the definition, whether it is state sponsored terrorism or the act of a lone perpetrator. Read the items below, a few of many and see how many blackmails, threats, terroristic and extortionist sentences you can find. The New Anatolian, Turkey March 17 2007 'Turkey could close Incirlik base' The New Anatolian with agencies / Washington 17 March 2007 Font Size: default medium large U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried warned Congress yesterday against passing a resolution supporting Armenian claims of genocide, saying the move could result in Turkey closing the Incirlik Air Base used by the U.S. military A bill on the so-called Armenian genocide was introduced in the U.S Senate on Thursday. The bill was drawn up by Democrat Richard Durbin and Republican John Essington. Senators John Kerry, Edward Kennedy and Joe Lieberman also signed the bill. It is interesting that supporters of the bill including presidential candidates Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama and Joseph Bidenin have not signed the bill this time. A total of 21 out of 100 senators have declared their support for the bill. The bill was submitted to the House of the Representatives on Jan. 30 U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried told a hearing of a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee on Europe that Turkish officials have informed the U.S. that approval of the resolution could lead to a shutdown of the base or a restriction on U.S. overflight privileges granted by Turkey. He also said the U.S. has been informed that Ankara would respond with "extreme emotion" if the Armenian resolution were approved. Turkey provides vital support to U.S. military operations. Incirlik Air Force Base, a major base in southern Turkey, has been used by the U.S. to launch operations into Iraq and Afghanistan and was a center for U.S. fighters that enforced the "no-fly zones" which kept the Iraqi air force bottled up after the 1991 Gulf War. He added the U.S. fear was that "passage of any such resolution would close minds and harden hearts." At the same time, Daniel Fried has described the events that happened in 1915 during the Ottoman Empire as a massacre. Robert Wexler, chair of the Europe Subcommittee and the U.S.-Turkey Friendship group also underlined that anti-American mood has increased in Turkey and if the genocide draft is adopted U.S. opposition would increase. Joseph Ralston, the U.S. special envoy for countering the terrorist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) and Daniel Fata, a Pentagon representative said that cold relations with Turkey would affect U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. "This is an incredibly sensitive issue inside Turkey, and what we are trying to encourage the Turks to have is meaningful reform of their dealings with Armenia," said Ralston In joint identical letters to the speaker of the House of Representatives and two other senior members, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the resolution also could inflict significant damage on U.S. efforts to reconcile the long-standing dispute between the West Asian neighbors. In the letters, Rice and Gates drew attention to the consequences of French Parliament's passing genocide bill that made it crime to deny Armenian genocide claims. "Turkey cut off all relations with France, including the military sphere and refused military contracts under discussion due to the adoption of that resolution. The resolution could inflict significant damage on the U.S. soldiers located in the region and create problems for the divisions deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan and inflict significant damage on U.S. efforts to reconcile the long-standing dispute between Turkey and Armenia," they said. The appeals went to Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Representatives John Boehner, leader of the House's Republican minority, and Tom Lantos, the Democrat who chairs the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Turkey strongly opposes the claims that its predecessor state, the Ottoman government, caused the Armenian deaths in a planned genocide. The Turkish government has said the toll is wildly inflated and that Armenians were killed or displaced in civil unrest during the empire's collapse and conditions of World War I. Ankara's proposal to Yerevan to set up a joint commission of historians to study the disputed events is still awaiting a positive response from the Armenian side. After French lawmakers voted last October to make it a crime to deny that the claims were genocide, Turkey said it would suspend military relations with France. Turkish Daily News March 17 2007 Gül warns against genocide resolutions Saturday, March 17, 2007 ANKARA - Turkish Daily News ]b]Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül yesterday leveled criticism at parliaments abroad that pass resolutions recognizing the killings of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire as genocide and warned them not to be deceived by what he said were games.[/b] `I hope that those who pursue policies over the alleged genocide remember terrorist incidents and see how they generate terrorists by throwing support to certain groups,' Gül told a ceremony for the commemoration of Turkish diplomats who died as a result of terrorist attacks abroad while serving the Foreign Ministry. `I also hope they remember how such groups carry out terrorist activities even in countries which are known to be the most civilized and that they are not deceived by such games,' he added. Several parliaments, including those of France, Canada and Poland, have passed resolutions backing Armenian genocide claims. None of the governments of European Union countries - except France - have endorsed any resolution recognizing the alleged genocide. Gül said Armenian terrorist organizations and outlawed international groups caused the death of a number of Turkish diplomats but made sure that none of the diplomats from the ministry refrained from taking over Turkish posts abroad having seen such examples. `The entire world knows very well that the Turkish nation has never hesitated to risking their lives for such elevated values,' he added. Gül emphasized that everyone should learn lessons from the past experiences and see that terror is not a way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neko Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Who invented the term; The tail wagging the dog”? Rudyard Kipling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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