Armenians in the battle of Kosovo 1389.

[Srdjan]

http://www.armeniaserbia.org.yu/jermeni_u_srbiji.html

 

This is the link to the site of Armenian union in Serbia.

 

It states that Armenians fought together with Serbs against the Turks at Kosovo in 1389.

Coming together with the Turkish army as their vassals, after seeing Serb Christian flags they went over to fight together with the Serbs.

 

Has any of you ever heard of such a thing?

Are there any Turkish or Armenian history sources that can confirm this?

 

 

Something else from the same site:

 

Inscription at Vitovnica monastery in Serbia in Old Church Slavonic and Armenian, 1218. : http://www.armeniaserbia.org.yu/ktitorski_natpis.html

[MosJan]

SrdJan - Welcome to HyeForum

 

And thenk you for the link. nice site Bravo

[edward demian]

There are Armenian inscripions all over Eastern Europe. Some are from the early Paulicians ( Bogomols). Some are from the Armenians who became Muslim and thus now Bosnians. Some are from the various outmigrations out of Armenia because of the Mongol Invasions. Armenian Stone Masons were known and famous, and thus hired to build churches and monasteries. Their stone masons marks are seen on the backside of every stone. Also, Armenians were very ardent prosethylizers. Our missionaries converted the Caucasian Albanians, The Georgians and the Asyrian nations. It is very likely that the Serbians were still maily pagan in the 1200. At that time, there were still pagans among the Armenians.

[Bakersfieldian]

Serbs, Greeks, and like it or not, Russians are our cousins down through the centuries.

 

We've all shared common enemies.

[Twilight Bark]

That's news to me. Such aggressive "proselytizing" (for lack of a better term) surely must have happened at the time of Grigor "Lusavorich", when he bulldozed ancient Armenian culture out of existence in a very un-Christian manner, and maybe shortly thereafter. But once it absorbed the indigenous character of the Armenians, the "Armenian" church became properly Armenian and has not engaged in aggressive proselityzing.

quote

Our missionaries converted the Caucasian Albanians, The Georgians and the Asyrian nations.

Caucasian Albanian church was similar to the Armenian one, but my impression was that it co-existed with and may even have preceded the official establishment of the "Armenian" church. As for the Assyrians, they had converted to Christianity before the Armenians, but not as the "official religion of the state", for the simple reason that they did not have a state. When first founded, the "Armenian" Church was profoundly affected by the Assyrian one. It took a while for it to find its own identity. I cannot understand how the Armenian Church could have converted the Assyrians to Christianity a second time . European missionaries did do that to the Armenians however, since in their usual arrogance they did not consider any flavor of Christianity different from theirs as "proper". The fact that they would lose their heads if they attempted to work on the muslims might have had something to do with it as well . But I digress.

[Twilight Bark]

We may have had common enemies, but we should not lose sight of the fact that our national character is significantly different from each one of those nations. In many ways, especially aggressiveness, Serbs and Greeks are more similar to Turks than Armenians. For better or worse.

Russians are too heterogeneous to generalize. However, I would not view a "Cossack" Russian as a "cousin" of any sort. And the feeling from their side would be similar, and violently so.

In general, none of these groups are likely to remain emotionally close to the Armenians for the long term. Having said that, I have seen a genuine "bonding" tendency on the part of Serbians towards Armenians.

[Arpa]

That's news to me. Such aggressive "proselytizing" (for lack of a better term) surely must have happened at the time of Grigor
"Lusavorich", when he bulldozed ancient Armenian culture out of existence in a very un-Christian manner, and maybe shortly thereafter. But once it absorbed the indigenous character of the Armenians, the "Armenian" church became properly Armenian and has not engaged in aggressive proselityzing.
===========
It is new to me too.
One thing Armenians are not and have hardly been is "proseltysing", so much so that it is tantamount to xenophobia, not unlike the Jews who willno only never preach to the gentilesthey won't even accept anyone who cannot a thick vein of blood.
It is reported that at one time they may have converted the Albanians and furnished bishops for thembut that fervor, if there was one had been lost quickly. If Armenian were such proseletysers then one would be at lost to explain why during more than 400 years between their conversion and the spread of Islam none of our neighbors were even approached until they converted to Islam en masse. You see? Armenininsm is unique. It is mainly an composed of two elements, one is ethnicity but the other, even more important is religion. Therefor, if any our neighbors would even as much as have one of our traits then our uniquness would be nullified.
Let us forget what did or did not happen in the past. It is believed that there may well over a million "closet Armenians " in Turkey. Has anyone even considered preaching to them and bring them back into the flock? Or are they polluted? Besides, we know that preaching to the Moslems is tantamount to a death sentence. Never mind even that. Never a day passes without the bellyache those "cults" are causing in Armenia. The Church has tried every trick, even as much as having the police (Commader Grigor Loussavorich comes to mind)and the army cleanse them, yet I have never heard of the officers of the church getting down off of their thrones and tending to their own flock. If Armenians were such proeletysers in the past they have surely lost the art. It seems like once the art of "persuasion by the sword" has fallen our of grace we have also lost the art of "preaching by the word" or convincing by example, not that we have much to show for. How many non-Christian , non-Armenian do you know that is knocking on our doors to become one? Would we accept them? Or is Armenian blood is not composed of hemoglobin and serum?

[Srdjan]

Perhaps it may seem that this topic aims to emphasize some kind of Serbian-Armenian "friendship", "brotherhood" or something else and however although there is a sympathy from Serbs towards Armenians, in the light of the similarity of the historical background and the tragic faith of both nations under the Ottomans and the somewhat analogous political problems with Moslems recently it could seem like a try of a Serb to establish allies among his "orthodox brothers to fight the oppressing Moslems". Personally for me a historical fact regarding the battle of Kosovo, if true, is very interesting and intriguing and if Armenians truly did fight side-by-side with Serbs on Kosovo Polje then it is surely a significant fact for Serbs since that historical event is the most important event in Serbian history. Of the importance and SYMBOLISM of this event, both politically and spiritually, I shall not speak here, unless it is a wish or a special interest of any of you, since this is, as much as I understood, a forum on Armenian history. I suppose, however, that if such a thing proves to be true, it is by no means uninteresting to an Armenian interested in Armenian history. However still, even though there are even today remarkable examples of a tendency towards connection and a friendship of these two nations (Armenian writer Babken Simonyan) it is clear to all of us that today such a thing could be used politically. That is why I have written that in the opening.

 

 

I do not understand where the conclusion comes from that Serbs were mainly pagan at 1200. as well as how it referes to my question?

[Paola]

Srdjan, are you Armenian or Serb? Sorry, I can't tell from your name. If you are Serb, can you be my forum "friend" and teach me some simple Serb words and sentences? just write them to me in phonetic. My neighbors next door are Serbs. I would like to ask them a few things in your language such as "how are you?" "walk with us" etc...

Thannks!!

[edward demian]

Boy, it is interesting to see how far off the mark my simple short comments are. Bu t it pleases me to see that much reaction. Let me enlighten you about The Armenians ofEastern Europe. There was a large Armenian community just north of serbia at that time. In Mpldova. If you are impressed bt a small inscription in Armenian than you will certainly be impressed by the "Germag Pert" the "White Citadel" still standing an majestic in Old Moldova which is now part of Ukraine. Over three hundred thousand people of Armenian descent still reside in the area which also has at least one functioning Armenian Monestary called Khach Gadar. This Pert was a fort built to withstand the Mongols. The Armenians were eager fighters agaist the Mongols and the Turks. Yhey were master cannoneere. In those days Armenians were hired and bribed away from their loyalties to fight as mercenaries.

[gamavor]

If you go further west, to Poland, you will see exactly the same. Armenians were helping Polish pans against turks. Their loyalty was highly appreciated and even Poles were ready to send troops in Armenia to help Armenians against Mongols.

 

Armenian presence in Eastern Europe since 4-6 AD might be a subject to a very interesting study.

 

 

PS: "JIVELY" in Serbian is GENATZ, and has the same meaning. No more beer. In vino veritas!

[Srdjan]

Of course Siroun, with pleasure!

I shall make a kind of a quick introduction to our language if you wish on the "language" forum.

[Bakersfieldian]

quote

we should not lose sight of the fact that our national character is significantly different from each one of those nations. In many ways, especially aggressiveness, Serbs and Greeks are more similar to Turks than Armenians. For better or worse.

 

Although I disagree with your premise, I thank you for bringing out this point. Upon further review, the similarities in the category of agressiveness are even more then I had originally considered.

 

I believe the past 10 years have shown Armenians a pretty agressive group. But, unlike the Serbs and Greeks, Armenians have had much greater success in this department.

[gamavor]

Bakersfieldian is absolutely right. Balkans are nothing but Caucasus multiplied by 10.

We are not much different from Serbs and Greeks. And even I believe that we are closer to Serbs as a national mentality with all the bad and good things.

[Twilight Bark]

As all generalizations about human beings, my statement has obvious exceptions. Artsakh Armenians have a cultural character that is recognizably different from the rest of the Armenians. Perhaps due to their remote, "natural fortress" location, or perhaps due to other reasons, they have evolved in a different path. If it were not for the steadfastness of Karabagh Armenians, the whole thing would end in a humiliating disaster. That is not to minimize the enormous sacrifices that the Armenians of Armenia proper have made, however. They persevered great hardship.

Let me give a concrete example of what I mean when I say Greeks are rather different from us. Can you imagine Armenians making such a fuss over a neighboring country's name (Macedonia) in a manner that can be described as infantile? We may get irritated if Georgia all of a sudden starts calling itself Urartu, but that would be the end of it. Their sense of history makes Armenians a cautious bunch. The case of Artsakh was an exception that was thrust upon Armenians by the circumstances and was helped by the atypical sub-culture of Karabagh Armenians.

[Bakersfieldian]

I could just see it now.

 

"Us citizens of Urartu are in no way attempting to copy you Armenians. By the way, our capital has been renamed Anoushville.".

"Since adopting our new name, rug and jewelry sales have risen dramatically.".

"Begining March 1, all citizens of Urartu are encouraged to change their "ov" suffix to either yan or ian. It is our firm belief that we will see a rapid increase in the average I.Q. of our citizenry with just this simple move."

[gamavor]

I personally do not mind to be mistaken for a Serb. I wouldn’t mine to be mistaken for anybody else because I don’t care. The issue here is that people who have had similar historical experiences and people who share more or less similar cultural and religious values inevitably have lots in common, like it or not.

As to the Diaspora Armenians I fully agree with you. But lets stop perceive ourselves as something different or extraordinary. People (not only Armenians) who willingly or unwillingly emigrated to foreign lands hope for the better. Better jobs, better lifestyle. Its so natural. If we could preserve our heritage and in the same time become better citizens that would be the perfect scenario. I do believe that integration without assimilation is something that is possible and positive.

There have always been loud mouths and I don’t blame them. Everyone is entitled to express his views.

[Twilight Bark]

We are in general agreement. As for our being "extraordinary", I certainly have no illusions of superiority of the Armenian culture. However, a culture does not need to be overall superior or extraordinary in order to have certain aspects that indeed are extraordinary, and even "superior" in one sense or another. In fact, that is bound to be the case if we are to accept the self-evident fact that distinct cultures are distinct from each other . The trick is being able to combine positive aspects of the cultures one is exposed to and synthesize a better, personal one. If this process occurs with enough number of individuals within a "cultural group" you get "cultural evolution". We can only hope.

[Twilight Bark]

I guess at this point each of us should speak for ourselves.

Seriously though, you just said that Balkans are Caucasus multiplied by 10. Don't you think a factor of ten is significant? I never meant to imply that Armenians of Armenia are a bunch of happy-go-lucky mall shoppers. Put their degree of restraint in the proper context and perspective and you'll see what I mean. As for the diaspora, most of its members are either preoccupied with their personal goals (as is the traditional Armenian way) in order to "make it" in their host countries, or are gleefully on their way to complete assimilation. The "aggressives" among them roughly fall into two categories: the young hot-headed ones who will become like their parents as soon as they get a proper job, and the older ones who usually are not much more than loud wind-bags. And I love them all.

[Srdjan]

Now that you already went completely off-topic...

 

 

Frankly speaking I actually do find a lot of similarities between you and us. Before all, as Gamavor rightly said historical circumstances make things similar whether you and I like it or not. I personally see a lot of things basically the same. The same rather unique "national mentality" as you called it (I agree with the term) considering being an Armenian/Serb and muslim at the same time an anachronism or an apostasy of one?s own centuries long tradition and struggle and with that loosing all thinkable honour and pride (>>if for centuries my ancestors bled and tried to oppose the Turkish slavery than now giving all that away and becoming one of them is simply...<< ) which occasionally tends to rise to a spontaneous paranoia of being special and absolutely unique in one?s own cultural and national values and identity (the fact that the RELIGON played the major role in preserving the very national mentality and identity is to no extent unsignificant! Spiritual values play a great role here and the "paranoia" is not rarely to be even metaphysically coloured...??) The same struggle for a national identity that strives to find a definition both culturally and territorially, struggle to forge a clear national identity TODAY that strives to clean itself of everything "turkish" (which - this is perhaps only my OWN opinion - much more often simply means actually "oriental" or/and is REGIONALLY GEOGRAPHICALLY and not necessery nationally - turkish - characterized) in a rather difficult political context... including even banal similarities as cheezy oriental-folk-pop and a slight dilema with the idea considering the sensitive national mentality and problematics whether such music should be listened to or simply BANNED and forgotten as "turkish". The geographical-cultural character is respectively unique, Balkans is not Europe and Caucasus is not orient, Balkans and Caucasus are both places where different cultures crashed into each other but however I am certain about the many original features of these regions that do not make them simply "bridges between orient and occident" but fully distinct and original in their folklore and ethnic character.

 

Do note that some of the things mentioned tend to differ in amount from one side to the other...

 

I am certainly not trying to banalize things and regard different things as identical, but mind the fact that we are talking about two nations who have NO contact at all and NO linguistical relationship at all and NO kinship at all.

 

Perhaps trully similar political factors in completely different areas can cause similar political situations regarding the very details of national ethnical and cultural life and general emotion.

 

Of course, not to forget the many similarities in the temperament and mentality...

 

 

Tell you what, politics is politics and people is people... I love everyone and all that but I certainly shall rather expect to find a common language with Armenians then many others... just as it is with Greeks for example...

 

 

Thank you for your postings by the way and thank you Pandukht for having me welcome I hope we shall share many good discussions...

[Srdjan]

And I didn't even mention genocide... a similarity I would rather it wouldn't exist...

[Twilight Bark]

Just as it should be in good, spontaneous conversations.

quote

I certainly shall rather expect to find a common language with Armenians then many others... just as it is with Greeks for example...

Certainly. What I tried to get across was that despite the similarities in their views of history, and the sympathies originating largely from the very same, there are cultural traits that make Armenians unique in ways that many people often overlook. Please do not perceive my comments as a rejection of Serbian friendship. I do think that there is a special bond between the peoples of the Near East/Caucasus/Balkan region, especially those that had been oppressed for a long time. We can understand each other. We know.

[Arpa]

Srdjan wrote;

 

Do note that some of the things mentioned tend to differ in amount from one side to the other...

I am certainly not trying to banalize things and regard different things as identical, but mind the fact that we are talking about two nations who have NO contact at all and NO linguistical relationship at all and NO kinship at all.

------------

 

On the contrary, all things aside the one common kinship Armenians have with the Serbs is their language. Both are IndoEuropean and many terms and words which may elude the amateur eye have common origin. Never a monograph goes by where Ajarian fails to point the commonality of word origins to the Slavic languages. (I can cite examples if need).

 

TB wrote;

 

Certainly. What I tried to get across was that despite the similarities in their views of history, and the sympathies originating largely from the very same, there are cultural traits that make Armenians unique in ways that many people often overlook. Please do not perceive my comments as a rejection of Serbian friendship. I do think that there is a special bond between the peoples of the Near East/Caucasus/Balkan region, especially those that had been oppressed for a long time. We can understand each other. We know.

--------

 

There may be many similarities in our past and present, mainly our fate and destiny having been tragically affected by Turkish devastation. In that package there is one more similarity which is not so pretty. It took the Armenians over a thousand years to finally realize that Turks had outlived their welcome. Similarly it took the Serbs 500 years to realize the same. In both cases it was irreversibly late, much water had passed under the bridge on Arax just as the bridge over Drina. They both stood inactive during all those years before the advent of CNN to try and clean all that dirt, one in full sight of NATO and the other under the auspices of the OSCE, while in both cases the Turk had had its dirty work done in the darkness of the "dark ages", and now thumbing their noses saying; "Prove it!!!". We, on the other hand are being accused of "genocide", one in the Hague and the other in Khojali. The old saying goes; "beat the iron while it's hot", that is before that iron turns into a dagger in the hand of the Turk. What is even more sad is that both the Armenians and the Serbs are and were the expert ironmongers making weapons that would be used to cut their own throats.

I hope we both have learned a valuable if a very expensive lesson. If we could only get over the fact that one is Eeatern Orthodox, one Byzantian and the other Armenian Apostlic, whatever they may mean, and recognize the real adversary.

[gamavor]

Nothing in this world happens by accident:) My best friend in USA is a Serb, and last week I was informed that after few months (7) I'm going to be an uncle, (for first time in my life) of a creature which would be half Armenian, half Serb.

I knew a girl some time ago, she was half Armenian, half Macedonian and she was deadly combination.

[kakachik77]

There are Armenian inscripions all over Eastern Europe. Some are from the early Paulicians ( Bogomols). Some are from the Armenians who became Muslim and thus now Bosnians.

Nonesense! Bosnians are converted Serbs perhaps Croats, basically Slavs. There are converted (of course by force) Armenians in Turkey but that's all.

Edited August 27, 2004 by kakachik77