DavanaPogh HAyer & HAyrenaDartsutyun

[MosJan]

Դավանափոխ հայերի և հայրենադարձության մասին

 

 

http://hetq.am/arm/news/5815/davanapokh-hayeri-ev-hayrenadardzutyan-masin.html

 

 

Հոկտեմբերի 27-ին «Սարդարապատ» շարժման նախաձեռնող խմբի կողմից կազմակերպվեց քննարկում՝ «Դավանափոխ հայերի զարթոնքը» թեմայով։ Թեման ներկայացնում էր լրագրող-պատմաբան Համո Մոսկոֆյանը։

 

Ըստ բանախոսի` կրոնափոխ հայերին պետք է բաժանել 3 մասի` համշենահայերի, ալևիների և զազաների: Համշենահայերը այժմ ամենամեծ հայկական էթնիկ խումբն են` իրենց քրիստոնեական և մահմեդական գծերով: Հ.Մոսկոֆյանը նշեց, որ համշենահայերը պահպանել են իրենց լեզուն` համշենահայերի բարբառը և ձևական պահպանում են մահմեդականությունը. նրանք պահպանել են իրենց բոլոր հայկական ավանդույթները:

 

Նրա պարզաբանմամբ, 2-րդ հայկական մեծ խմբավորումը` ալևի հայերն են, որոնք այժմ ապրում են շատ մեծ զարթոնք։ Նրանք ժամանակին դարձան ալևիներ, այդ կրոնի համաձայն` մարդիկ կնության են առնում մեկ կին, նրանք խմորի վրա խաչ են անում, այլ սովորություններով ևս նրանք նման են քրիստոնյաներին:

 

Երրորդ խումբը զազաներն են, որոնց նվիրված կոնֆերանսը տեղի է ունենալու Երևանում: Զազաների մեջ կան թրքամետ տարրեր, մարքսիստներ, օջալանականներ և այլն։

 

Ըստ Մոսկոֆյանի` այդ բոլոր խմբերի հետ պետք է ակտիվ աշխատել, քարոզչություն անել, նրանց մեջ արթնացնել հայությունը:

 

Քննարկման ժամանակ անդրադարձ եղավ նաև հայրենադարձության հարցին։ Անդրադառնալով դրան` մասնակիցներից Գ. Չուգասզյանը մասնավորապես ասաց հետևյալը. «Ես կցանկանայի հարցնել, արդյոք քաոսը կավելանա՞ Հայաստանում, եթե մենք սխալ քայլեր անենք հայրենադարձության հետ կապված, օրինակ` համշենահայերի հայրենադարձումով։ Խնդիրը իսկապես երկսայրի սուր է, որովհետև մի կողմից մեր երկիրը հայրենադարձության ծայրահեղ անհրաժեշտություն ունի, այսինքն` հայրենադարձությունն է, որ փրկելու է մեր երկիրը այս վիճակից, սակայն վատ իրականացված հայրենադարձությունը վերջին հարվածը կհասցնի Հայաստանի Հանրապետության գոյությանը։ Դրա համար հայրենադարձության կազմակերպումը պետք է լինի չափազանց մտածված։ Սակայն, ես կարծում եմ, որ ֆիզիկական հայրենադաձությունից առաջ նախ հոգևոր հայրենադարձություն է պետք։ Հոգևոր հայրենադարձությունը նախ պետք է սկսվի Հայաստանում, հայաստանցիների հոգևոր հայրենադարձություն պետք է լինի, որից հետո հնարավոր կլինի ուրիշներին էլ ետ բերել։ Հայաստանում այսօր արտագաղթողների հարց են լուծում, սակայն մնացողները, ապրելով Հայաստանում, արդեն ուրիշի հոգևոր տարածք են մտնում, և օրենքը փոխում են, որ հեշտանա այդ հոգևոր միգրացիան դեպի օտարի հոգևոր տարածք։ Դա նշանակում է, որ պրոբլեմը նախ և առաջ Հայաստանի Հանրապետության ներսում է»։

 

 

[MosJan]

Dzer KArtsiq@ ??

[Yervant1]

SARDARAPAT ORGANIZES DISCUSSION FOCUSING ON CONVERTED ARMENIANS

 

Tert.am

27.10.11

 

Sardarapat movement organized a discussion Thursday dedicated to

religiously converted Armenians.

 

Titled "The Revival of Converted Armenians", the discussion was

moderated by journalist-historian Hamo Moskofyan.

 

According to him, currently converted Armenians can be divided into

three groups - Hamshen-Armenians, Alevis and Zaza.

 

Of all these three Hamshen-Armenians is the largest ethnic group -

both with their Christian and Muslim characteristics.

 

This group, Moskofyan said, has preserved its language - the Hamshen

dialect - and is artificially preserving its Muslim status.

 

The Hamshen Armenians have preserved all their Armenian cultures,

he added.

 

Alevis, according to him, are the second largest ethnic group, who

are now in a revival period.

 

The third group is the Zaza that have some pro-Turkish elements

and Marxists.

 

Yerevan will soon hold a conference dedicated to the issue of the

Zaza people.

 

Hamo Moskofyan further said that active work should be done with

all these three ethnic groups in an attempt to revive the Armenian

element in them.

[Arpa]

Այո, խիստ պատեհաժամ յոդուած Timely article է:

I will write the rest in English so more of us can see and read.

We are so desperate that we are placing the cart ahead of the horse, so to speak.

 

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cga0226l.jpg

 

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cga0226l.jpg

With all the emigration and vacating the Homeland , we are so desperate յուսահատ that we are willing to fill the void with whoever and whatever, to once again turn Yerevan into a furkish town of a 100 years ago. furks and asszeris , be they , as some of us say were Christians Armenians at one time will be so willing to fill the void created by EMIGRATION.

We will come back and address each of the quotes above.

To start. How are we to convince them that it is "Better to be a Christian Armenian". i.e "Երանի Հայ Քրիստոնեայ եմ ասողին/Yerani Hay em asoghin".

Ne mutlu Ermeni im deyene?

Edited October 28, 2011 by Arpa

[MosJan]

Ankaskats kuzeyi xosenq iys temayov..

 

 

 

PS. Arpa papik isk inchu es turqeren grum aphsos chi forumi GB or turqerenov vattnenq ??

[Arpa]

Սփսոս Մովսէս: Դու եւ ես ջուր ենք ծեծում: Փորձում ենք շողգամից արիւն քամել:**

Իսկ ինչ վերաբերի սրան, յաջորդիվ:

PS. Arpa papik isk inchu es turqeren grum aphsos chi forumi GB or turqerenov vattnenq ??

Այո, մեղաւոր եմ որ հակառակ իմ կրօնի այդ անիծեալ լեզուով խօսեցի:

**

YOU CAN’T SQUEEZE BLOOD FROM A TURNIP

Meaning: You cannot get something from a person, especially money, that they don't have. You can only get what people are willing or able to give. A turnip cannot be coaxed, squeezed, or cajoled into producing blood. All efforts at obtaining blood from this vegetable will be futile

http://www.calciumproducts.com/images/blog_photos/turnip.jpg

 

http://www.calciumproducts.com/images/blog_photos/turnip.jpg

Edited October 29, 2011 by Arpa

[Arpa]

In the above article we saw that this process has many obstacles - խոչընդոտ and issues.

I also cited the cliché “placing the cart ahead of the horse”.

Which comes first. Physical or spiritual repatriation?

See highlight below-

---

Loosely translated-

“Before the physical repatriation, we need an spiritual repatriation. This process has to start in Armenia itself. What with all the spiritual alienation and emigration..”

In other words. If these non-Christian “Armenians” do actually physically immigrate, are we willing and ready to accept them as is in their other religion? How many churches will be converted to mosques, or how many mosques will we build for them?

Above, when I used a furkish phrase, it was intentional. Given that very few of them, if any speak and understand Armenian, in what language will we proselytize and preach to them? How do we talk to them. Not to mzention that "church Armenian" aka grabar. "Խորհուրդ մեծ եւ սքանչելի, որ Յայսմ Աւուր յայտնեցավ" ? They call “Astuats/God “allah” and Jesus “isa//yesou‘”, and they use “kilisa” instead of Yekeghetsi. just like the Arabs swear in the name of the three “prophets” - “Isa, Musa, Mohammed”.

Քննարկման ժամանակ անդրադարձ եղավ նաև հայրենադարձության հարցին։ Անդրադառնալով դրան` մասնակիցներից Գ. Չուգասզյանը մասնավորապես ասաց հետևյալը. «Ես կցանկանայի հարցնել, արդյոք քաոսը կավելանա՞ Հայաստանում, եթե մենք սխալ քայլեր անենք հայրենադարձության հետ կապված, օրինակ` համշենահայերի հայրենադարձումով։ Խնդիրը իսկապես երկսայրի սուր է, որովհետև մի կողմից մեր երկիրը հայրենադարձության ծայրահեղ անհրաժեշտություն ունի, այսինքն` հայրենադարձությունն է, որ փրկելու է մեր երկիրը այս վիճակից, սակայն վատ իրականացված հայրենադարձությունը վերջին հարվածը կհասցնի Հայաստանի Հանրապետության գոյությանը։ Դրա համար հայրենադարձության կազմակերպումը պետք է լինի չափազանց մտածված։ Սակայն, ես կարծում եմ, որ ֆիզիկական հայրենադաձությունից առաջ նախ հոգևոր հայրենադարձություն է պետք։ Հոգևոր հայրենադարձությունը նախ պետք է սկսվի Հայաստանում, հայաստանցիների հոգևոր հայրենադարձություն պետք է լինի, որից հետո հնարավոր կլինի ուրիշներին էլ ետ բերել։ Հայաստանում այսօր արտագաղթողների հարց են լուծում, սակայն մնացողները, ապրելով Հայաստանում, արդեն ուրիշի հոգևոր տարածք են մտնում, և օրենքը փոխում են, որ հեշտանա այդ հոգևոր միգրացիան դեպի օտարի հոգևոր տարածք։ Դա նշանակում է, որ պրոբլեմը նախ և առաջ Հայաստանի Հանրապետության ներսում է»։

[Yervant1]

When they don't care about the rich Christian Armenians immigrating, why should they care for the poor Muslim ones?

 

CORRUPTION IN ARMENIA: ESTI HAMETSEK...

By Oshin Peroomian

 

Noyan Tapan

29.10.2011

 

In what I can only characterize as the twisted modern-day version of

"Gikor", our honorable President, Serg Sarkissian, has repeatedly asked

the diaspora to come and invest in the homeland and have an input in

making Armenia a prosperous nation. For all those brave souls that

are actually considering heeding the president's call and do not have

"friends" in the highest of places in the government of Armenia,

I simply offer a story which should give some pause.

 

In the fall of 2005, I bought a 2,500 square meter land on the hills

overlooking Yerevan (in Nork). I purchased this land from Mr. Andranik

Ghulijanyan for a total sum of 88,000,000 AMD (about $ 195,000 at

that time). The original lot size owned by Mr. Ghulijanyan was 5000

square meters. Since, I did not want to purchase the entire lot, I

requested that Mr. Ghulijanyan split the parcel in two halves so that

I could purchase only half the land (the amount I could afford). Mr.

 

Ghulijanyan filled out the proper paperwork at the Republic of

Armenia's (RA) Kadatsr in Yerevan, which is the government body

responsible for issuing deeds in the RA, and requested that the deed be

separated into two. After doing their due diligence, the Kadastr split

the original deed and issued two deeds each for 2500 square meters. As

a side note, the RA Kadatsr would not have completed this process if

there were any leans or judgments against this parcel of land.

 

After the Kadastr issued the two deeds, with the help of my lawyer in

Armenia, we completed the transaction via notary public and recorded

the transaction with Kadastr. The RA Kadastr issued a new deed listing

me as the titleholder for the 2500 square meter parcel. To this day,

no state official has called into question the legitimacy of my

transaction and the deed that I hold. This is an important fact to

keep in mind as you read the rest of this story.

 

In fall of 2006, a few months after my family and I moved to Armenia,

I got a call from the Nork-Marash courthouse inquiring as to why

I had failed to appear in court. I had no idea what the phone call

was about so my lawyer and I headed to the courthouse to ascertain

the reason for the verbal summons (verbal summons are illegal in

Armenia). To our surprise, we found that the city of Yerevan had

taken Andranik Ghulijanyan to court for not properly paying for the

5000 square meter land, which he had originally bought from the City

of Yerevan. Since Mr. Ghulijanyan no longer owned the entire piece

of the land, I was subsequently included as a defendant in the civil

trial. In fact, not only was my summons to court done verbally, the

civil charges against me were also entered verbally (both strictly

against the rule of law in Armenia). The judge simply saw fit to add

the changes against me midway through the trial based on a verbal

request from the attorney representing the city.

 

The laws (in Armenia) are very clear in this matter. I did not purchase

my land from the city of Yerevan; and, when I purchased the land,

Mr. Ghulijanyan was the rightful owner of that land. My transaction

with him followed the letter of the law and thus the only recourse for

the city of Yerevan was to sue Mr. Ghulijanyan for the money they were

owed for half the land (my half) and request his portion of the land

to be returned. As a bona fide purchaser, there are several statutes

(in Armenian law) that protect my purchase. The city officials had

written in their brief that since they wanted the original purchase

agreement of the land with Ghulijanyan nullified, it should follow

that I my purchase agreement be nullified as well.

 

Clearly not the case under Armenian law!

 

During our civil trial, it became clear that a group of people (kadastr

employees, bank employees and other officials and civilians) had been

arrested for falsifying documents and receipts and pocketing the money

that was to be paid into the state treasury for the original purchase

of the land (when Ghulijanyan purchased it from the city). It turned

out that over a hundred transactions of this type where conducted with

a massive loss to the state treasury. The state had started criminal

proceedings against the aforementioned group and had seized all their

assets. I will not get into how those assets were auctioned off and

how much money was actually put into the treasury since no one can

actually give the correct number. The items auctioned off were at

pennies on the dollar and probably made the corrupt officials handling

this case even richer than they should be!! The president of Armenia,

at that time the honorable Robert Kocharyan, had come up with a "kam

hoghe kam poghe" policy and ordered every one of these landowners

(whether complicit or not in the criminal activities) be taken to

civil court. It was clear from the judges manning these trials that

a fair trial was not going to be possible. In nearly all the cases,

the civil defendants were forced to pay what was owed to the state a

second time, even "defendants" that were bona-fide purchasers who did

not purchase their parcels from the city. Again, I don't think anyone

knows exactly by how-many fold these payments exceeded the original

"loss" to the state budget. I was one of the lone holdouts. The lawyers

from kadastr and the city said that this would simply go away if I

paid what was owed to the city. It really didn't concern them that I

had rightfully purchased the land (and not from the city) and that I

had paid much more than the 33,000,000 AMD that the city was asking

for (the total sum was 66,000,000 for the 5000 square meter land).

 

In my original trial, the judge was very prejudicial and did not

even want to consider the fact that there were people being held

on criminal charges in this matter. Armenia law clearly states that

criminal proceedings in a given case supersede the civil proceedings

because any evidence and convictions stemming from the criminal trial

will have a direct consequence and relevance in the civil trial. The

judge did not see it that way and did not want to postpone the trial

until the end of the criminal proceedings. We questioned the judge's

impartiality and made a formal request for his removal. The court

magistrate, by law, had to take the matter under advisement and

notify us in writing whether our request would be granted. About 15

days after our request, my lawyer called and said that he had "heard"

that the judge was going to announce a verdict in my case the following

day. I was completely shocked. Well, I shouldn't say that since someone

who has lived in Armenia as long as I have, rarely gets shocked at

anything anymore. We showed up the next day at the courthouse and

the judge was clearly surprised to see us in the courtroom. In fact,

none of the other parties were in court. He read the verdict and

literally ran out of the courtroom afterwards. We asked the court

clerk about the response to our request for the removal of the judge

and she handed us the refusal letter after the verdict was announced.

 

Under Armenia law, one has 15 days to appeal court rulings and we went

ahead and appealed the verdict. The case got assigned to the Appeal's

Court (civil division). As an American citizen, I also notified the

American Embassy about the "troubles" I was having with the judicial

system in Armenia. The Embassy was extremely helpful in many ways.

 

They offered to be at the appeal's court proceedings and to write

letters on my behalf to the Foreign Ministry of Armenia. At the first

court session in the appeals division, we asked the three-judge panel

to postpone the trial until the end of the criminal proceedings in

this matter. The judges said that they would issue their ruling on

that motion at the next session. I was very sure that the judges were

going to rule against us so I asked the embassy if they could have an

official present at the second session. Mr. Jeff Gringer, the deputy

consul for the US embassy in Yerevan, agreed to come to the trial. As

the session began and we introduced the people in the courtroom

(including the deputy consul), pandemonium broke out in the courtroom.

 

What could only be described as a scene from a badly adapted John

Grisham novel, the judges called a 15 minute recess and the Kadastr

and City lawyers started frantically talking on their cell phones. The

court was called into session 20 minutes later and the judges agreed

to postpone the trial and grant our motion. I wonder what would have

happened if the ambassador had shown up at the trial (although we

did not have an ambassador to Armenia at that time).

 

Fast-forward a few years to the fall of 2010. The criminals were tried

and convicted. The state, in their criminal case, had clearly shown

that the convicted were the ones who had defrauded the state. So, with

the criminal verdicts at hand, our trial began once again. Even if

the other laws that I mentioned in the beginning of the article were

not enough, now the judges had criminal verdicts in their procession

clearly showing who was to blame for the fraud perpetrated on the

city. As the case proceeded, it became clear that once again this

panel was not going to be impartial. After hearing all sides, they

announced that they were going to issue their ruling at a specified

date. We went to the courthouse on that date in order to be present

while they read the verdict. In a twisted version of "the dog ate

my homework" excuse, the judges told us that they had issued the

ruling but the computers were not cooperating and they couldn't read

the whole statement of the verdict. My attorney asked if they could

read the main ruling (whether they upheld the lower court's decision

or not) and that we would pick up the full text of the ruling at a

later date. The lead judge on the panel said that the pages were out

of order in the document and the whole computer system was on the

"frits". The computers seemed to be working properly for all the

other rulings that they read before they got to ours. I have too much

respect for kangaroos to use their name to describe this court. The

lead judge said that we should come back in a week and they would

read the verdict at that time. A week passed and we were notified in

court that the panel had decided to restart the proceedings, the same

panel that claimed that they had reached a verdict but couldn't read

it because of issues with their computer system.

 

In this next "phase" of the proceedings, the judges tried to see if

someone would come forward and pay the amount owed to the city so that

the matter could be "resolved" via settlement. After exhausting these

options, the judges began with a sharp line of questioning for the

lawyer representing the city of Yerevan. One judge actually asked,

"Did the city sell land to Oshin? No! So why is the city asking for

a land which it did not sell to Oshin". We were surprised that the

judges were taking our side and it was refreshing to see them follow

the rule of law. We have the official audio-tapes from the trial where

the judges harshly criticize the city attorney and tell her that their

case is without merit. They essentially say that the correct course

of action for the city was to sue Mr. Ghulijanyan asking for monetary

compensation for the part of the land that he no longer owned and that

I should not have been even included in this trial. The lawyer from

the city is heard at the end of the tape saying, "The money owed to

the state MUST be paid and we really don't care who pays as long as

it is paid" clearly showing the states intentions in the case (Kam

hoghe kam poghe!). All indications were that the panel was planning

to overturn the lower court's verdict,....until the verdict! Clearly

there had been pressure from the highest reaches of the government

as is the case with nearly all matters involving the people vs. the

state or the city. In fact the judges didn't even read the verdict

in court. The secretary gave us the ruling outside of court and said

"Sorry, we did everything we could". The ruling basically upheld the

verdict from the first court.

 

We appealed this ruling to the highest court in the land dealing with

such cases, the "Vechrabeg" court.

 

Today, October 3, 2011, I got a formal letter from the "Vechrabeg"

court that it had refused to even hear my case, exhausting all options

open to me within the boundaries of the RA. In their letter of refusal,

there is absolutely no reason given for their decision.

 

In all the verdicts handed down so far in this case, none of the

judges indicate what law I have broken during the purchase of the

land and under which statute I must forfeit the land (because there

are none!). Even the judges on the audio recording ask the city

attorney "Under which statute are you asking for the forfeiture of

Oshin's land".

 

I love my country. In fact, very few have made the decision that my

family and I have made, leaving the "good-life" in LA for a better-life

in Yerevan. My third child was born in Yerevan, and I am proud that I

live in my homeland and contribute to its hopefully prosperous future

(in my own way). However, the so-called sovereign judicial system here

has left me no choice but to seek justice outside the boundaries of

the RA. My next stop in this journey will be the European court.

 

We often here that the system is simply broken in Armenia and

corruption runs rampant. Everything can be bought since everything is

up for sale. Well, everyone who has worked and lived here has stories

just like the one above, which go a long way to prove that premise.

 

Oh, what would Gikor think...

 

http://asbarez.com/98962/corruption-in-armenia-esti-hametsek.../

Edited October 29, 2011 by Yervant1

[Arpa]

I don’t understand this. I cannot find any connection between Alawi-s and Armenians.

 

Նրա պարզաբանմամբ, 2-րդ հայկական մեծ խմբավորումը` ալևի հայերն են, որոնք այժմ ապրում են շատ մեծ զարթոնք։ Նրանք ժամանակին դարձան ալևիներ, այդ կրոնի համաձայն` մարդիկ կնության են առնում մեկ կին, նրանք խմորի վրա խաչ են անում, այլ սովորություններով ևս նրանք նման են քրիստոնյաներին:

 

Alawis are an offshoot of Islam who profess that Mohammed’s cousin Ali is the real prophet. They are also known as Shiites like those of Iran and other pockets in Syria and other places..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawi

 

The Alawis, also known as Alawites, Nusayris and Ansaris (‘Alawīyyah Arabic: علوية‎, Nuṣayrī Arabic: نصيريون‎, and al-Anṣāriyyah) are a prominent mystical and syncretic[7] religious group centred in Syria who are a branch of Shia Islam.[8][9]

 

The current president of Syria, (top row second from left, Papa Hafez and Mama are seated), professes to have descended from the Alawi faith. Also note that, unlike Iran the women don't use any head/hair cover.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/F-assad.jpg

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/F-assad.jpg

----

To once again reiterate, Where is the connection of Alevis and Armenians?

During the (Sunni)ottoman times, just as now the Alawis have been persecuted , as they still are today.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Arpa

[Arpa]

When they don't care about the rich Christian Armenians immigrating, why should they care for the poor Muslim ones?

Ծուռ նստինք շիտակ խօսինք. Or is it- Շիտակ նստինք ծուռ խօսինք?

Yes indeed. Before we talk about the acceptance and welcoming of "islamized Armenians", let us go back a few decades, to the "big immigration" in the 1940-s when the immigrant-repatriots were despised and shunned, called all kinds of insultful names like "turk, Arab, aghber(meaning garbage)" etc. Is it any different now? i.e "give us your money and get lost, or your breathless body, satak/carcass/corpse will be found in a hole on a highway."

Edited October 30, 2011 by Arpa

[Nané]

Ծուռ նստինք շիտակ խօսինք. Or is it- Շիտակ նստինք ծուռ խօսինք?

Yes indeed. Before we talk about the acceptance and welcoming of "islamized Armenians", let us go back a few decades, to the "big immigration" in the 1940-s when the immigrant-repatriots were despised and shunned, called all kinds of insultful names like "turk, Arab, aghber(meaning garbage)" etc. Is it any different now? i.e "give us your money and get lost, or your breathless body, satak/carcass/corpse will be found in a hole on a highway."

 

Not that I'm justifying the "label" but those who immigrated were called «ախպար» not «աղբեր». As I understand this was because the men addressed each other «եղբայր» կամ «ափար» ... which became «ախպար» in the lexicon of the locals.

[Nvard]

like I said before, there shouldn't be a Muslim community in Armenia, and esp. in Artsakh..Say whatever you say, but it's a great threat for our homeland's existence..If they wanna come and stay in Armenia, they should convert and become a part of this culture, get connected if you will..Otherwise I don't believe they care or consider themselves a part of our nation.

[ED]

kareli e u arhrajejt hishel te Garegin Njdehe inche asel ir orov

 

"mtavorakanutune da Joxovrti Hoqebanutyan darpinne"

[Arpa]

like I said before, there shouldn't be a Muslim community in Armenia, and esp. in Artsakh..Say whatever you say, but it's a great threat for our homeland's existence..If they wanna come and stay in Armenia, they should convert and become a part of this culture, get connected if you will..Otherwise I don't believe they care or consider themselves a part of our nation.

Yes Nvard, you are right.

Let us once again read what was said above.

Հայաստանի Հանրապետության գոյությանը։ Դրա համար հայրենադարձության կազմակերպումը պետք է լինի չափազանց մտածված։ Սակայն, ես կարծում եմ, որ ֆիզիկական հայրենադաձությունից առաջ նախ հոգևոր հայրենադարձություն է պետք։ Հոգևոր հայրենադարձությունը նախ պետք է սկսվի Հայաստանում, հայաստանցիների հոգևոր հայրենադարձություն պետք է լինի, որից հետո հնարավոր կլինի ուրիշներին էլ ետ բերել։

------

“Before the physical repatriation, we need an spiritual repatriation. This process has to start in Armenia itself. What with all the spiritual alienation and emigration..”

Some of us would like to think that after all that centuries of alienation/assimilation and acculturation , turkification and programming will be reversed and deprogrammed overnight by simply physically moving in. That after all those years of turkification those people will be Armenianized in a few days. Armenianism is not simply a matter of citizenship, that any citizen of Armenia will automatically be an Armenian. Armenianism is much more than simple citizenship, you tell us what it entails. Even speaking Armenian is not all it takes. One can speak Armenian yet go to the mosque and pray to allah and mohammed. Will they celebrate tsnound or zatik, or will celebrate ramadan and eid?

Lonok at the USA, where out of 300 million at least a 200 million are citizens. Are they all Americans, i.e even if the majority may be Christians but are they all Anglo-s? Some may have Shepherd’s Pie as their main dish, others- Pasta or shish kebab/khorwats, still others, like the Afro-Americans- chiitterlings**, a khash in their own way.

Is Armenia BIG and SECURE enough to accommodate all those various cultures, when they say- “OK, we will move in and become citizens of Armenia but will keep our centuries old traditions and faiths? Is the Blue Mosque big enough to accomodate all those islamized Armenians, who will sing allah-u-akbar instead of Ter Voghormia/Astuats Mets? *** Will there be more minarets than Bell Towers/zangakatoun?

---

** http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/ChitlinsSmall.jpg/220px-ChitlinsSmall.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings

Chitterlings ( /'tʃɪtlɪnz/; sometimes spelled chitlins or chittlins in vernacular) are the intestines of a pig that have been prepared as food. In various countries across the world, such food is prepared and eaten either as part of a daily diet, or at special events, holidays or religious festivities.

*** ‎"Սուրբ Աստուած, սուրբ եւ հզօր, սուրբ եւ անմահ, որ հարյար ի մեռելոց, ողորմեա մեզ

Sourb Asdvadz, sourb yev h'zor, sourb yev anmah, vor haryar i merelotz, voghormia mez."

Speaking of “allah-u-akbar/almighty god/Հզօր Աստուած”…

I don’t know who the author of the lyrics is. Is it Shnorhali or Narekatsi?

Here is the hymn/sharakan from Makar Ekmalian’s patarak/mass.

Who knows this sharakan?

----

ՍՈՒՐԲ ԱՍՏՈՒԱԾ

ԾՆՆԴԵԱՆ

Սուրբ Աստուած սուրբ եւ հըզօր սուրբ եւ անմահ,

որ ծնար եւ յայտնեցար, ողորմեա մեզ:

ԽԱՉԻ

Սուրբ Աստուած սուրբ եւ հըզօր, սուրբ եւ անմահ, որ խաչեար վասն մեր, ողորմեա մեզ:

ԶԱՏԿԻ

Սուրբ Աստուած սուրբ եւ հըզօր, սուրբ եւ անմահ, որ յարեար ի մեռելոց ողորմեա մեզ:

ՀԱՄԲԱՐՁՄԱՆ

Սուրբ Աստուած սուրբ եւ հըզօր, սուրբ եւ անմահ, որ համբաձար փառօք առ հայր ողորմեա մեզ:

Edited November 1, 2011 by Arpa