Armenian Youth

[Guest]

Ha ha. I'm sure If I measure up (i doubt it!) But lets keep on trying, eh?

 

Lots of visitors say they like this forum because it is not like some other brainless fourms..

 

Pilaffyjan I don't know about the mexican thing, that baffles me. The italian thing, oh THAT is the mafia influence of course, headed by YOU!

 

I heard this obscure story one about this fifty year old woman, heading a significant branch of the mafia, from her flat for years with no one suspecting anything and they just caught her recently. She was known for her ruthlessness and called her the godmother. How do you figure that one out?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
I am not very hot on the issue of the preservation of communities. First of all, I don't think it is possible in the new world, second, I don't thing it is in the interests of Armenians.

Preservation of any types of communities is inversely proportional to the individual success of the members of that community. People live in communities out of the fear to go out and participate in the open competition, or off of the inability. This locks the community within itself, it does business within itself, and becomes an under-advantaged social unit, not participating in the corporate world.

I think it is more important to have the individual members of community to integrate and succeed in corporate and other structures of the host nation.

In my view, it is better to have successful and strong individuals outside communities, rather than disenfranchised, isolated, ghettoized communities.

True, this may lead to faster assimilation in the host culture, but the assimilation is a problem that should or could be resolved not on the level of the Diaspora, but the Republic of Armenia. Only Armenia may come up with a strategy to reverse or decelerate the assimilation, by establishing mechanisms of reinvention of the national identity, by providing appropriate economic incentives.

The communities are evidence of the weakness of the nation by definition. As the history suggests, living in communities leads the members of these communities to concentrate primarily is the sphere of service - grocery business, dry cleaning, other small businesses. Any individual, successful in the large scale, disassociates himself/herself from the communities - the success and the community don't go together.

Look at Gulbenkian, look at Aznavour, at Manoogians, at Kirkorian, etc. They are individuals totally assimilated in the host culture, but they have stronger feelings of association with the "old country' than the majority of those living in communities.

I think it is time for our Armenian nation to move to the next level of national self-organization.

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 04, 2001).]

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Hmmm... I don't agree with what you say. When you talk about assimilated armenians totally assimilated who have stronger feelings about their country is useless because this feeling they have is only in themselves and will probably not be transmitted. Look at Cher who got married with an American and Aznavour with a Swedish woman. The particularity of an Armenian family is transmitting the Armenian traditions and how can we expect to have that with assimilation? Assimilation to the host country is just a short term solution but in the long term the culture and tradition will be lost, so what have we won really ?
You are talking like Turks would. They are ready to modify their culture for another one just to be bigger but their real identity is being lost this way.
Be successful and stay Armenian! Some are just frightened by the Armenian reality and that's why they assimilate rapidly not to feel this pain we all feel.

With respect.

[Guest]

Oh here we bloody go again. Dont you ever stop going on and on about it?

[Guest]

I think you should think before you speak. You've told us this before. Dont you realise you could be upsetting people on this forum that are married to odars not because they feel any less Armenian or love for being armenian but it happennes to be a personal choice the make to spend time with that person?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Raffi Y:
Hmmm... I don't agree with what you say. When you talk about assimilated armenians totally assimilated who have stronger feelings about their country is useless because this feeling they have is only in themselves and will probably not be transmitted. Look at Cher who got married with an American and Aznavour with a Swedish woman. The particularity of an Armenian family is transmitting the Armenian traditions and how can we expect to have that with assimilation? Assimilation to the host country is just a short term solution but in the long term the culture and tradition will be lost, so what have we won really ?
You are talking like Turks would. They are ready to modify their culture for another one just to be bigger but their real identity is being lost this way.
Be successful and stay Armenian! Some are just frightened by the Armenian reality and that's why they assimilate rapidly not to feel this pain we all feel.

With respect.

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RaffiY,

Take it easy. You are not obligated to agree with me.

Armenian families will exist in Armenia, unless there will be a mechanisms for the reinvention of the Armenian origins of Diaspora. I have spoken about this many times, and would refrain from repeating myself.

I don’t know what you mean by Armenian tradition. Maybe you can be more articulate about it? And to help you to understand it, I would advise you that tradition is a drag on nations, invented for preventing progress, and is the last resort of intellectually and psychologically impotent nations and people.

I don’t know if this is what Turks talk about, which could substantially elevate them in my eyes, but I always prefer to think, before talking. I would advise the same to you. And it may take studying the Armenian culture, understanding what is it that makes it to become or called Armenian, what are its sources, and what is its dynamics.

In any case, a little studying will be good. Then, may be, it will help you not to feel pain, but joy.




[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 14, 2001).]

[Azat]

I am glad that somebody brought this question forward. My filling is that the current Armenian generation will not do to the Armenian community what their parents have done. This is very sad because I feel that these are the first signs of loosing your identity. I am one of those Armenians that does not listen to Armenian music, do not participate in any Armenian activities, hardly will go to any Armenian Art events and majority of my friends are non Armenian.(I am not proud of these fact) And let me remind you that I reside in a city with the largest Armenian community outside of Yerevan, and I am sure that I am not the only Armenian in this situation.(I hope)

 

MJ, while it is true that individuals like Kirk and Aznavour have accomplished alot for the Armenian community, it is also very true that they came from strong Armenian backgrounds. And this is where the problem lies in today's generation and future generations. As our community gets weaker, we as Armenians leaving outside of Armenia will loose our heritage and our children and grand children, if very successful, will wonder why they should help Armenia, or why Armenian culture should be preserved.

[MJ]

Azat,

 

I know that the Armenian identity fades away with time. That's natural. I have always said that the Diaspora, outside Syria, Lebanon, Iran, will disappear in 2-3 generations. Even in those countries it will disappear - only a little slower.

 

I have also suggested that living in communities as we know them, is not the best way of preserving the identity. Sooner or later these communities will lose their identity, too.

 

The only way that I can see the identity being preserved is through a mechanism of rotation, which requires creation of special economic incentives, attracting Armenians to Armenia. This requires strategic approach from the government of Armenia.

 

Additionally, I think that if the preservation of Armenian identity is going to require ghettoized existence, and is going to undermine the abilities of the members of that ghetto to be successful, and the community is going be a reflection of misery, it is not worth to preserve such identity.

 

Our discussion has started from communities, and living in communities. This is what I have denounced. My vision of preservation of Armenian identity is different. I don't think communities, as we know them, are a positive phenomenon. They are reflections of weakness and lack of courage and ambitions. I also don't see Armenians of Diaspora helping Armenia over the long run. If Armenia, over the long run, has to exist due to the help of Diasporan Armenians, why do we need Armenia and Armenian identity preserved. What is the purpose of our existance, after all?

 

In fact, I see it working the opposite way - Armenia helping the Diasporan Armenians by providing them with mechanisms of participation in its economic and other success. I see the preservation of Armenian identity only through Armenia. I don't mean only in Armenia. But I mean through making Armenia the axis of Armenian identity, through participation in its economic growth, and through a strategic migration-rotation throughout centuries. This is a huge topic.

 

[ February 19, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Pilafhead]

Right there with ya. I even live in that same not-so-mysterious city. Except I do listen to the music. My main associations with Armenians have always been through my family. As for attending events, as I get older and have more free time, this is changing.

If you are not proud of what you describe, why not change it? Alternatively, why do you think you need to do some or all of those things?

Mike

[Azat]

MJ, I can't disagree with you when you say that the preservation of our identity has to come from Armenia and not the communities that are formed in the Diaspora. However I am not sure if Armenia can provide this for us. Today Armenia needs the Diaspora to survive and not the other way around.

 

I guess what you are saying is that as time goes by and we loose our identity, the current generation will do less for the "Armenian" culture? I think that this is a sad fact.

 

Mike, I don't listen to much music. I have two FM(KCRW, KPCC) stations and two AM stations preset on my radio in the car. I listen to NPR 90% of the time and Laker games the other 10%. At home I only listen to Charles Aznavour. I love Aznavour, but I do not consider him as an Armenian Singer. He is a French Singer who is Armenian.

 

Armenian TV in Los Angeles is horrible. Most Armenian restaurants are okay, but they are noting to write home about and I feel embarrassed taking friends over to Armenian restaurants because of the service. Armenian music of today is scary. There are few singers that are cool, but many are just horrible. Including their king Aram Asatrian. Plus most of the music preformed by Armenian singers in not Armenian music, but is foreign songs translated to Armenian.

 

I tried to volunteer at couple of Armenian organizations and came to the realization that they were less looking for a volunteer than someone who could donate money to them so that they could support the administration that they had set up. I ended up taking a volunteering job at KCRW, the local NPR station.

 

I am not sure why I am writing all this, except I guess I am wondering what is it that others in Los Angeles do that allows them to be in the Armenian community.

 

Sorry if I am too negative.

[MJ]

I don't think Armenia can provide it for us for the time being. Clearly, it is not in a position to do it, for now. I do agree that things look the opposite today, however one may see it as an investment. The Diaspora invests in Armenia (investment in a broad sense of the word) today, and recieves the returns tomorrow.

I don't see Armenian culture being enhanced outside Armenia. However, Diaspora may be a very important link in advancing the Armenian culture, by serving as a conduit with the rest of the world in both directions.

[Des]

This is an interesting topic.....

I am not Armenian at all: but Anglo-Chinese, but am interested in Armenian and Caucasian/soviet culture in general.

 

One thing that I have heard is that assimilation doesn't always happen one way. When immigrants arrive in another country they and their children often try their best to assimilate into the host country to the extent of rejecting of their traditional values, and it may seem that the next generation will completely dissolve.

 

However, 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of immigrants sometimes re-claim their ethnic identity, as they become curious of their origins that they know so little about.

 

For example, many of my Chinese-American cousins, 2 generations away from China and mostly of mixed-blood, who were brought up completely as middle-class suburban Americans, suddenly began to develop a curiosity in their Chinese roots, and many of them learned Chinese again and spent a few years in China. While their parents prefer to be called "American", they actually prefer to be called "Chinese-American", although many of them are only half-Chinese.

 

I heard that in the 70s and 80s many Italian-Americans also re-claimed the ethnic identities which they lost. Robert DeNiro was in fact brought up in a middle-class All-American New York suburb who later discovered his Italian roots.

Sometimes it depends on the state of the country the immigrants came from. 100 years ago being Italian in the USA was a great disadvantage so many Italo-Americans tried their best to hide their roots, while today being Italian is 'cool' and 'hip', so many Americans with more than a drop of Italian in them are all calling themselves 'Italian'.

 

So if one day being Armenian becomes 'cool', many lost Armenians will be reclaimed!!!

[Des]

This is in response to the questions of family ties and gang involvement....

 

I don't think gangs are at all to do with having extended family or not. They are a pure result of poverty and segregation.

In the USA, over history, almost all the nationalities that dwelled in ghettoes have formed gangs: Irish, Jewish, Italian, Chinese, Puerto Rican..., and today the Mexicans and Armenians.

 

They are formed usually in multi-cultural cities where the different cultures don't mix, and are formed first of all for self-protection to stop other groups from attacking them.

 

Many people here seem to have a misunderstanding of Latinos, as if gang culture is part of their tradition. No, it is not. In Mexico itself you cannot find any cholos or anything remotely resembling them. The Latino street gangs are a product of the American ghetto. Back in the 1910s and 20s, when many Jews dwelled in ghettos and lived in poverty, many Americans used to relate Jews to gang violence the way the Latinos are today. 3 generations later, when most Jews have moved out of the ghetto, the Jewish gangs faded away. Most people today don't even know that Jewish gang members ever existed, but back in the 20s there were plenty of them.

[Kazza]

[Boghos]

Extremely interesting topic.

 

My experience is that ghetos that still exist after two or three generations tend to attract the people that have not been able to perform in the real world. Most ghetos are run and frequented by mediocre people. There are of course exceptions, but that´s what they are.

 

I have taken part in numerous discussions in how to recover the silent succesful majority of Armenians that have done quite well in the "real world". The fact is that the result has been closer to the " how could we end hunger in the world" and the like. It can be done rationally, but it just doesn´t happen.

 

My view is that if you think of yourself as Armenian, buy a ticket and try out the homeland. It is absolutely essential to visit it.

[Pilafhead]

Welcome, Des!

 

 

This is my situation, except that I grew up knowing quite a bit about being Armenian (or at least my grandparents' definiton of such.) My mom did somewhat rebel against being Armenian which must have led to my embracing it.

 

I have a niece and nephew that are also anglo-Chinese. My Chinese sister-in-law is as American as you can be (most likely as a result of having VERY traditional immigrant parents), so the kids currently seem to have zero interest in their heritage. They are only teenagers, but I keep wondering at what point they will delve into their Chinese roots. I'm positive it's going to happen.

[Pilafhead]

It is a part of their tradition, but you're right, in America, not in Mexico.

[dragon]

After independency, studying in Armenia became difficult for uspiurkahayer around the world, but it was great advantage only for Iranian-Armenians, who were arriving over Meghri, by paying $ 50 bus fee.

 

Others have to pay by hundreds for tickets. The days of ''ousanoghagan-arkayoutian'' was gone with the collapse of USSR...

 

I have lots of stories to tell, but now I have to focus on iranian-armenians girls (in general), who first of 90's were coming in big numbers, filling the rooms of the hanragatsarans, which were for rent.

 

At the first look, all of them were more like muslems than armenians...after a while, you can never recognize them...all were wearing short skirts, losing weight, full make up and a boyfriend in there room...They were great in finding husbands among Spiurkahayer...they were not interested in Iranian-Armenian guys, as much as Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqian and others...sometimes even fighting with hayastantsis for that...

 

Waw...lots of stories to tell you guys about my experience in Armenia, from 1991-1993...I can write a couple of books, but how to publish it, this is the main point!!!

 

PS.- Please be sure that what I said above was in general .

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Miss Dragon