Christianity

[Guest]

You are right that I am Hayastantsi Hay, in that I was born, educated and raised in Armenia – such a tremendous place to be (have you been in Armenia?). And I take pride in it. I am aware of the role of the Armenian Church in the task of the preservation of Armenian Diaspora. This is the story of the last 100 or less years, perhaps. The issue that I have tried to raise was meant to be in the context of the last almost 2000 years of Armenian history. One of the points that I wanted to make was that wile we can and should give credit to the Church for the positive role as a Social Institution it has played throughout the history, we should admit that the role of a Church is something else – spiritual leadership. This is what I believe the Armenian Church has not provided, and still has a way to go to get there. Weather the Armenian Church is full of economically motivated people or not, that’s not the issue. The Protestant Church is the same, and I would suspect that that’s the same with the Catholics.

 

As far as King Trdat is concerned, I am not sure that what you said was the motivation of Trdat in accepting Christianity. At least the legend says that Trdat was persecuting the Christians, and in particular he had thrown Grigor the Illuminator into a dungeon called Khor Virap for 14 years (there is a Church built around that dungeon in Armenia). Then, Trdat became very ill. His face swell like a face of pig (my translation). He was told that there is one man who can save him - the man that he had put in dungeon. Trdat orders to bring the Illuminator to him. The Illuminator promises to treat him, if he accepts Christianity (it might be that there was also a request for the whole nation - sorry many years have passed since I have read this legend). This is why, it is claimed in the legend, Armenians accepted Christianity. Of course it is a legend, but I though it is worth mentioning. But if we assume that Trdat has accepted Christianity for the sake of the preservation of the Nation, that helps me to make my point. As you claim, the Christianity was not accepted because of the message of Jesus Christ, or the understanding of his sacrifice and resurrection, but rather for political purposes. I think that’s too bad. That would mean, as far as I am aware of, the first expression of hypocrisy in both Armenian State structures, and in the Armenian Church. Appearantly, the Christianity according to you was founded in Arenia on false premises. How bad that the foundations of Armenian statehood were so weak even then, that we needed to accept Christianity to save it, Christianity which was supposed to be the religion of all nations-regardless of ethnicity, race and statehood. I think in that capacity, it was not a very honest think to do. And the dishonesty always has implications. It never goes away. I built this argument based just on your proposition.

 

What ties King Bab had with the Greek Orthodox Church that he cut? If not Greeks, than others were always mingling into our political and state affairs before and after Bob. The primary subject of arguments in Armenian Nobel circles was where should the Armenian youth be educated – Bysantium or Persia? After all, the coronation of the subsequent Armenian Kings for long time had to be validated by the foreign powers – sorry, I am starting to forget the names (may be somebody here may help me). If the Christianity has to be used as an argument supporting the preservation of the Armenian Statehood, I feel compelled to state that in fact we lost our Statehood, and subsequently our limited autonomy under the Persian Empire because of the Christianity. The bottle of Avarire in no way was a bottle for the country, but rather the first Christian - religious war in the history. As a result, the entire Armenian Army was eliminated, and we couldn’t bring an Army together for several centuries to come. And as long as the Church was not being touched by the foreigners, that was OK. That was even better. Now, finally the Church had the upper hand. In this context I don’t mean to single out the Armenian Church. More or less the same picture has prevailed in Europe.

 

Your evidence on sultan Mohammad II creating the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinopole also helps to make my point – what purposes is the Armenian Church being used for? Why is the Church interfering in geopolitical affairs? Is this when the precedent was set up so that subsequently to become an agent of the Soviet Foreign Intelligence Service?

 

 

Thank you for reminding me about the Armenian control of parts of Jerusalem. But I don’t have any doubts about the historic presence of Armenian Church in Middle East and elsewhere.

 

I am sorry that my comments about Spartacus have been misunderstood. I didn’t mean to compare Spartakus, who probably was a good man, with Jesus. I just was trying to make a point that the cross does not have much to do with Jesus, and tried just to provide a reminder, that perhaps more than thousands of people before and after Jesus were tortured on the cross. Recall also Barnabas (hope I am spelling correctly), who was put to death on the cross along with Jesus at the same time. What I wanted to say by my remark was that the cross itself has no spiritual value, and Apostle Paul in The Acts (Gortsk Arakelots) warns us on the symbols of faith. The lesson from the crucifixion that we were supposed to learn was that Jesus Christ was sent to the Earth to be sacrificed for our sins, so that we could be saved. I think this primary message is missing in our Church, and instead we all trumpet how important the Church has been in the task of preservation of the Armenian Diaspora. On a different note, I have to say that if the preservation serves no particular purpose, it is of no value or significance. But this is a different topic.

 

By the way, I have been in many Soviet states, but never have seen or heard of a statue of Spartakus. I wonder if you could share your source of information. Instead, in Yerevan I have seen and admired the magnificent Statue of our Patriarch Haik, who proudly oversees that our nation can rest assured that its borders are being protected... And he was not Christian, I have asked him about it myself

 

If you have felt insulted by my remarks, I sincerely apologize. Believe me please, my goal in posting my remarks has not been insulting our fellow Armenians or insulting even the Armenian Church. I understand that this subject has been a taboo throughout centuries. But I ask if we cannot discuss it here, where can we, or if we cannot discuss it, who can?

 

I would also like to see the Armenian Church fulfill its main function – provide spiritual leadership on the capacity of the body of Jesus Christ.

 

 

You are right that the Armenian State is full of corrupted and selfish public servants. It is such a pity. I am a stunt supporter of the Armenian Statehood and a strong government. In a little more subtle way, I am also a supporter of the Armenian Church, and in no way advocate getting rid of it. I wonder why did you make this conclusion? To the contrary, I think in the era of the amazing technological advances around the world, especially in the fields of Informatics and Genetic Engineering, the only chance of survival that the Armenian Church may have is returning to the roots of Christianity and fulfilling its long overdue historic mission.

 

I appreciate your reply to my remarks, and look forward to the next round.

 

P.S. With the liberalization of the society, and the opening of the borders I am puzzled how, while lacking the intellectual and spiritual capacity, is the Armenian Church going to compete with the aggressive sects like Jehovah’s Witnesses for the soul of the Armenian people. Instead, as we see, now they go back to the state and ask, "Crack down on them! Exile them!"

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Guest]

MJ, i don't know what kind of Hayastandci hay you are if you question our religion. Get rid of the cross??? You've got to be kidding. Cross is our symbol, which protects from satan. What kind of Armenian you've got to be if you question our religion.

 

I am not discussion this bulchit. Makes no sence. You can question Christianity in some muslim forum. And you can also change your religion to Islam. But you'll be the biggest shame of our people. I hate people who question my religion, i kill that person questions it and says anything against it!

 

God bless you!

[Guest]

Dear Artur,

 

I think you couldn’t be more descriptive, while getting out of the closet. “I hate people who question my religion, i kill that person questions it and says anything against it!” Wow! This is what you have learned from Christianity... Very remarkable! I am sorry, but cannot resist the temptation of pointing on your lack of exposure to Christianity. Please, before you claim you are Christian, read at least for once the Holly Book.

 

If you had ever read it, or if you had any basic understanding of Christianity on the basis of a limited verbal communication, you would have known that it is a sin for a Christian to replace the faith with a symbol, or to hate somebody, no matter how bad the person is (on a psychoanalytic level, the hate is a self-destructing feeling). You would have also been able to notice that in the Holly Book there is no mention of a Satan, but an evil. I am afraid your urge of being protected from the Satan by means of the crucifix is resulted from watching too many American movies on vampires in your youth. Please let me know if I can help you to get rid of your fears.

 

I think that you have missed the main points of my posting. But not to warry! No one is perfect, and neither am I.

 

I would also love to educate you on the subject of Islam vs. Christianity. And there is no reason for me to change my religion, because I don’t belong to any religion. As I have, apearantly unsuccessfully, tried to articulate before, I see no connection between faith and spirituality, and religion.

 

Thank you for your blessings. May God also bless you, your family and our Nation.

 

Love you, man...

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Guest]

Sorry MJ, but Arthur is totally right.

You can't question a religion, whatever religion it is. You just can't. If you don't believe in a certain religion, you can't urge people not to believe themselves or say that the religion is wrong. Nope, you can't do that either.

Let me give you a short religious lesson about Christianity and the Holy Bible. For a matter of fact, yes satan is mentionned in the Bible, when he tries to convince Jesus in doing things with which Jesus would prove that He really is the son of God. And if the Cross should not be used because we can't symbolize a religion, then why do we use it in churches or on the dress of every Catholicos. Why did the Jews crucify Jesus on a Cross? Plus, let's talk about the Jesus Fish, that Jesus and His Apostles put on trees or homes wherever they went. Doesn't the Jesus Fish symbolize Christianity?

You're not Christian, you're not Armenian!

 

God bless you, and every other Armenian in the whole world.

[Guest]

Hayesdu,

 

God has given intelligence and freedom to man to question everything they may think of. The Apostle Thovmas himself questioned the authenticity of Christ, while the Apostle Petros betrayed him trice. Thank you for the lesson. Always glad to learn something new. By the way, what Bible are you reading? I cannot recall a name Satan in the New Testament? Why do we use cross in the churches and the dress of every Catholicos? I think it is more of a rhetoric question, and is addressed not to the right person. I also feel that you are judging on the subject of Christianity based on your Grandma’s stories and allegories.

 

As to the Fish, I think it might equally symbolize the ignorant people, who pretend they read, listen, think and learn, but never analyze, question or understand? They just eat, sleep, reproduce other ignorant men, and don’t teach them to read, to listen, to think, to learn, question and understand...And it goes on and on for generations...

 

You are right that I am not Christian in your sense of the word. Neither was Jesus.

 

As to my fact of being Armenian, I feel very secure on that capacity, and I make that decision for myself. As far as you are concerned, unfortunately for Armenia, you are Armenian...

 

Can you understand now how difficult it is to bring order in Armenia?

 

Look, when I posted my initial remarks, I tried to initiate an intelligent discussion, and a critical analysis of the history of our nation. I didn’t want to offend or ridicule anybody. What kind of Christians do you claim to be, if you cannot even tolerate an academic conversation, which deviates from your beliefs of the Grandma version of the New Testament.

 

I see no point in continuing this discussion with you.

 

And May God's Grace and Mercy be with you forever.

[Guest]

MJ my man,

I would like to know who brainwashed you this way? Can you wait a bit so that I can find that passage and tell it to you.

 

May God bless you!

[Guest]

Dear Hye Forum users,

 

Isn't it a scary universe that I am on the side of Artur and others on this Forum? What is this forum coming to!!! Anyway, MJ and Boghos, you seem like you have a lot of issues with the Armenian Church. Honestly, I myself, though baptize in the Armenian Church, am much more Protestant in belief, so don't think I am some khatchkar wearing Grigorian. Still, it seems like your attitude toward religion in general is very Humanistic/secular, for instance you refer to the conversion of Trdat as a legend. Do you have a particular faith? Do you believe in supernatural miracles? I know that Artur is a bit of a fanatic at times, but I don't think he really means that he wants to kill you, its just an expression.

 

Also Raffi's point about Diaspora Armenian identity being preserved by the Church is very true. Yes you mention the Armenian organizations, AGBU for instance, were sponsored and supported by the Armenian Church , with these organizations meeting in Church halls etc. Don't even argue with this buddy, because I am a diasporan Armenian from Iran!

[Guest]

Gentlemen, ladies,

 

Let me summarize my positions:

 

- there is a difference between being a Christian and being a member of a given church

 

- institutionalized religion is like institutionalized everything else, it is in the hands of a few people

 

- it is a great myth that the Armenian church was responsible for the survival of the diaspora. We can look at old examples such as Poland, that had the whole structure of the church there, including special privileges, but there are very few Armenians left there from the first migration wave in the late XVI century.

 

As to the diaspora after the genocide, I reaffirm from experience, from having visited countless communities around the world, that the church did not have a key role in keeping the diaspora alive. There are very few church sponsored institutions that would allow this to happen. There are very few youth groups, hospitals, schools, all the tradition institutions that help promote a sense of community, of belonging. It is true that there are clergymen who have done a very good job, in California, in London. But these are excpetions. The Armenian church has usually adopted a passive position and has sat on the throne of "National Churchhood". It expects to be served, not to serve the people.

[Guest]

Oh come on people!!!

[Guest]

Oh come on people!!!

What are you talking about????

Are you Armenian or something???

How can you dare speak against our church???

I don't care about the priests accepting bribes, I am talking about the church as a whole!!!!

There is no Armenian culture without our church!!Church has been keeping us together for centuries!!!Things like AYF, etc, didn't exist 500 years ago!!!

The monks from the churches kept our books so that you can go now and see what your ancestors created!!The CHURCH people Mashtoc and Partev gave you the letters to make you more Armenian!!I just can go on and on and on!!

Oh my gosh, how can you even dare....

I didn't expect that from Armenian people, seriously.... (

[Guest]

Belief or faith is a special relationship between man and God. Any Church is ( or is supposed to be ) the vehicle through which man will approach God. However this discussion is very huge and I don’t think is the subject of our discussions.

 

I am not a religious fanatic and as you might have noticed I am mostly stressing the importance of the role of our Church in preserving our national identity. Our Church is not simply a spiritual tank , it is a National Church , because it undertook the role of the state during centuries of occupation. Who gave it that role? But of course , our own people , ignorant or backward or uneducated , they chose the church to do that.

You are asking whether the Armenians would be better off without the Church and its wars ( instigated by them as you suggest). Instead I can simply put forward a straight question : Would there be any Armenian left on Earth if our selfish Church did not exist? Or we would have become Persians, Greeks , Mongols , Russians or name it what ?

They were our spiritual /political leaders as well as our teachers , our poets , our psychologists and yes , our tax collectors. After all they were the only social institution left in the country with which even our enemies had to negotiate.

Was this supposed to be the role of the Church ? No , but circumstances pushed things that way.

Which other social structure could undertake this role?

If you disagree name the structure , which kept us Armenians .

 

The history lessons prepared and taught during the Soviet regime cannot be taken into proper consideration. Get out of it for a while and think clearly. It is obvious the influence that some of us have from these sources.

 

MJ . please tell me where do the Armenians who are fed up from the political parties go to meet other Armenians and try preserve their national identity?

Where do the non-Armenian speaking Armenians go to meet and feel Armenians?

 

My great grandmother was from a turkish speaking village . What was that kept her (and thousands like her) Armenian? She only knew the “Hayr Mer” and her frequent visits to the Armenian Church, kept her Armenian.

 

Maybe the advanced societies , like the Scandinavian ones , have social structures which have taken firm shape and strength ( which I doubt ) , but our Armenian society and our country is still very weak. We do not need to break all the structures , at least not yet.

 

Yes, we should discuss and find solutions to improve our Church , our State , our schools , our political parties etc. etc. etc. After all constructive suggestions and talks can only make us stronger .We learn from each other and maybe one day we might become stronger and wiser. I love getting into these kind of arguments , because I always learn new things and my thoughts and ideas become clearer and refined.

 

Unless you provide us with alternatives , please don’t destroy one of the very few things left in life in which us , the weak and ignorant , have still some faith ( illusionary or not ). Why does this annoy you after all?

[Guest]

"Are you Armenian or something ?"

 

Why can´t we discuss our opinions, positions, impressions on the church, political parties or anything else for that matter without having to retort to the usual ad hominen attacks.

 

Nobody has shown me any evidence of the church fundamental relevance in keeping the diaspora "Armenian" after the genocide.

 

The Armenian Church, for whom I have the greatest respect, lost its grip on power after the genocide. Since then it has been replaced by other civil insitutions as I have mentioned and the state functions were assumed by the authorities in Armenia. In the diaspora the respective states of immigration slowly took charge of the church functions in many countries, such as birth registration.

 

Now as to the spiritual function, the decline of the church has been similar to the decline of many other churches. Especially those that did not jump into Disneyland type ceremonies or other activities. We have been witnessing progressively the desinstitutionalization of religion. That´s all.

 

Nothing is beyond analysis or critique.

[Guest]

Now! This one is for MJ!

 

Hey boy! You call yourself an Armenian, and Armenian who has been raised in Armenia and is very proud of it, proud of our homeland, homeland where lhachkars are spread everywhere, where churches were made from rocks, place where you can find crosses everywhere. Now you are saying that everything you've been living with is crap and is wrong??? You say we adopt christianity because of Persians?! Bulachit, Armenians are the first who adopted.

 

You want to understand my reaction to you posting? I'll explain. I am very proud of my religion, my homeland, where I live. I believe in ONE god, I have ONE religion, I respect our traditions. And i am very stict about it. And remeber one thing, if you are an Armenian you don't question any of it!!!

 

You sound like a muslim guy who came here to insult the first Christian nation, saying that what Armenians wear(cross) everyday is wrong. Let me tell you, you are not insulting or offend only me and people here, but your whole nation, our homeland, our only love, our pride!!! Think about it. Not even muslims are allowed to say anything about my religion, because if they say what you've said to me to my face, next minute I would bring them Judgement Day, wil they would be begging on the knees. Man, you support them, saying what they say about our cross etc. Now, think about it.

 

Astvadz kez het!

[Guest]

Why can’t we get into constructive arguments without insulting each other? All of us have our strong arguments and required intelligence to make a point about it. I thought it was during the Dark Ages, when one couldn’t question religion. Catholic church solved the issue with the trial of Galileo. Hyemyes, people can and should question religion, since it’s a belief with a lot of contradictions.

 

Armenian church was doing a great job during the Soviet years, by serving a religious institution. In ‘90s there was such a religious revival in Armenia, St. Sarkis was packed on weekends, and people really wanted to be connected to church. It seemed like a religion was the missing ingredient in people’s psyche. The response of Armenian Church to such an enthusiasm was less then adequate. As a result we got many marginal cults spread in Armenia, who were able to get many followers. The response of clergy to peoples’ plight was even embarrassing. Remember Ter-Husik, the chairman of HHSH, he was a clergyman, and wasn’t the only one who was trying to financially benefit from the changes in ruling class. I agree that due to unfortunate historical developments our church served more than as a religious organization. Some of you, who have lived longer in Spyurk, might have a better idea what was the argument between Antilias and Echmiadsin 20-30 years ago. The above mentioned examples show that our church is in desperate need of reforms. It should be a religious organization, with a unique national character, not a politicized, money making machine. Church shouldn’t be allowed to become politicized, as it has become. The whole institution has become rather corrupt, and unless the new catholicos starts reforms, the role of church as a religious institution will diminish.

[Guest]

Just one thing to say now.

 

IT'S WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE : NEVER GO INTO DEP THOUGHTS ABOUT RELIGION, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T FIND LOGICAL ANSWERS TO IT.

 

In these days, everything in "scientificicized" and we can't base our arguments about religion on science and try to find logic in religion. We can't do that, because religion is about faith. Do you need scientific proof to believe that Jesus Christ exists or existed? Of course not. You must believe that Jesus Christ lived and was the Son of God. It's all a matter of faith. Don't look for scientific proof because there ain't no scientific stuff in religion.

[Guest]

ba chek amach@nar?

es inch ban g@sek gor dzo ?

 

bid xenthanam hima .

ashxarhik mardun hasanelik che amen iyn inch grvadz e surb krkin mej,anor barzabanum miyayn yev miyayn hokevor havatqin yev n@virvatsutyan mej krnas ktnil.

sakayn havatq@ mart araratsin amenen zoravor ujn e.

havada zavags , yev arotir ,

[Guest]

Dear forum, I have just returned from an out-of-the-state trip, and am somewhat warn out. Will reply to the meaningful remarks directed to me personally, tomorrow.

 

Will be brief today...

 

Some people have developed a habit of making statements on my behalf, and then disqualifying my alleged statements. I think, that is a wasteful exercise. I am not going to repeat my statements, since my messages may still be found where they were posted originally. Some people may find useful to read them again.

 

As to the subject of the Judgement, I have to point that men are given the prerogative of judging other men in the court of law or public opinion. But the prerogative of Judging on or through the Judgement Day is given only to Jesus Christ, who has warned us not to Judge, so that not to be Judged...

 

Of all the remarks, the remark of Tiratsu is the most touching to me. I wish all our Tiratsu were like him (assuming of coarse that Tiratsi is not just a pseudoname, but he really is one). Then, I think we would’ve not had these discussions...

 

I am just puzzled how some man allegedly read the Bible, and hopefully read it over, and still don't understand what is being said there. For example, I would like to be pointed to just one referral of the word "religion", especially in the New Testament... Not understanding the New Testament is OK. As we know "anmekneli en astso ughghiner@." It is hard to really understand unless one puts a lot of time on thinking about what is written, or if somebody mentors your studies. This demonstrates only how the Armenian Church has not fulfilled its historic mission, and has replaced it by social functions...

 

 

lol...this is what I call brief ...

 

 

P.S. I have a non-binding advise to some Militant "Christians". God has given you one mouth, and two ears. Please use them in that proportion

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 31, 2000).]

[Guest]

Raffi, you say “Belief or faith is a special relationship between man and God. Any Church is

(or is supposed to be) the vehicle through which man will approach God. However this discussion is very huge and I don’t think is the subject of our discussions.”

 

I somewhat disagree with the second part of that statement. I think the Church (at least as we know it in our Armenian landscape) is not necessarily the vehicle to God. Jesus himself has pointed us to the vehicle to the God by saying “I am the door of God.” Isn’t this why we finish our prays saying “In the name of Jesus I pray?”

 

If you revisit my previous postings, you would find that I have recognized the validity of the claims that as a Social Institution, the Armenian Church has served the cause of “goiapastpanutiun,” while I have criticized it for suppressing the national liberation movements throughout centuries.

 

I am having hard time to understand what means a National Church. I know what Church of Jesus Christ is (not in the institutional sense of this word). Referring to the Church, Jesus proclaimed “on this rock I will build MY Church.” (I also don’t want to introduce a new for our forum theological argument on what the “rock” means.) The Church belongs to the Christ, not to a Nation, and it should not be National. As I tried to articulate, the very fact of our Church being National is the source of our many troubles.

 

I don’t recall suggesting elimination of the Armenian Church. I have suggested two things only:

 

1. We should conduct a critical analysis as it pertains to the role of the Armenian Church in Armenian history.

2. The Armenian Church has not fulfilled its spiritual mission.

 

If anything, I would like the Armenia Church to be a cradle of spirituality for all Armenians.

 

Now, regarding the preservation of the Armenians throughout the history without the Armenian Church. This is a hypothetical question. If it didn’t exist (which I don’t suggest), probably something else might have existed. But the direct answer to your question is – I don’t know. If you are convinced that the Armenian Church has really been successful in preserving the national identity, can you explain where is our once 400,000 Armenian colony of Transilvania. Where has it disappeared with all its Churches?

 

 

Of coarse many monks were out teachers, poets, etc. I share your pride in Narkatsi or Nerses Shnorhaly, Anania Shirakatsi. But, the school and education existed only within the system of the Church. Where else they could’ve been?

 

And if it is up to the Armenian Church to negotiate with our militant enemies, then “Vai mez!”

 

You ask “which other structures could have kept Armenians.” Please tell me, which other structures were tolerated to exist by the Armenian Church? They couldn’t even tolerate a slight deviation from their dogmas. They even persecuted and exiled some of the most progressive Armenian religious movements in medieval centuries –Tondraketsi and Pavlikians (movement that was embraced by the future protestans). Besides, we also have to thank the narrow mindedness of our Church for the existence of today’s Azerbaijan. Didn’t they create the problem by “Nzovelov Aghvanats Catoghicosutiune?” By in large, these people were Armenians...

 

Raffi, please. You know nothing about the history lessons prepared and taught during the Soviet regime. As to the part concerning to the Armenian Church, if anything, they were very positive towards the Armenian Church, especially that it was serving them better than the Communist Party structures and Intelligence Services in Diaspora. By the way, if anything, praising of Armenian Church was part of the Soviet propaganda. Should I also add the representatives of the Church were permanent fixtures on the capacity of Honorable Guests in the Congresses of the Communistic Party?

 

Raffi, you seem to be an objective man and you also recognize that we are not an advanced society. Might it be because we are just a religious society – “kronakan hot,” and the axis of our national identity is not the Armenia Statehood?

 

I don’t suggest breaking our structures, but improving and innovating them, which cannot be done if we don’t analyze and understand what is wrong with the current ones.

 

Dear Raffi, I don’t destroy anything. The Armenian Church destroys itself, and I am not annoyed. I am just concerned.

 

Dear Nvard, just take it easy

 

Where do the Armenians who are fed up from the political parties go to meet other Armenians and try to preserve their national identity? Some go to Church, and some don’t go, since the most important thing – the Gospel – is missing there. Others go to the Armenian Forum at www.aremians.com/forum. So, see you there...

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 01, 2000).]

[Guest]

MJ, you brought up some interesting points but allow me to disagree with most of them. We Armenians don’t have just a Christian Church, ours is National Church. Just like Jewish religion is National, Armenian Apostolic Church is National also. It has been that way since King Pap implemented the reforms. One amazing thing, if you look at many icons in Armenian churches, you will see Jesus in the background of Ararat. There is this amazing picture in St. Mary’s Apostolic Church in Glendale, where Jesus is being baptized in Araks, and Ararat is in the background. For us Jesus is Armenian, and we are the chosen people, not Jews. We interpret the Bible differently from Catholics and Protestants in many cases so it can serve our national ideology. Our church has always tried to separate ourselves from other Christian congregations, and the reason for that is not only financial, but also national. There are many practices in our church that passed from Pagan periods, Matax, Turndez, and Vardavar just to name a few. The way Jewish religion has kept Jews from assimilating; Armenian Church has done the same. You should acknowledge the fact that church is part of our Armenian identity. What makes one Armenian, being part of the Armenian Church institution is one of it. Don’t get me wrong, I am not a religious freak, and am atheist in my believes, but I believe in Armenian Church as an institution. It has served our nation, and with reforms that will prepare it for 21st century it can successfully maintain its role. Arguing the fact that role of Armenian Church in preserving our national identity is minimal is groundless. Due to circumstances Church became the only institution that could represent our nation. Although they have benefited from the role of representing our nation, but you have to remember that Church successfully lead our nation to keep it’s national identity. One last thing, Church was one of the sponsors of Mesrop Mashtots, so it has to be given credit for maintaining and developing Armenian Culture.

[Guest]

Alpha, no problem. We don't have to agree on everything.

 

Besides, I am just expressing a point of view. Nobody has to adopt it. But at least we can recognize that there is something to think about...

[Guest]

Whoa Alpha!

 

Jesus was Armenian, we are the chosen people!- I am sure you are only exaggerating with these highly unbiblical tenets! I am sure also that the Armenian Apostolic Church does not teach this as well, so lets not use hyperbole.

[Guest]

Dear HB

Alpha didn't say that Jesus was Armenian and was born in village near Aparan.

Read please again carefully to see what he means...

[Guest]

Dear Raffi, I am not an ideological or combatant person, and don't need or have the desire to bring the others to my side. I have expressed my alternative points of view, and heave read with great interest the points of view of others. I feel I have expressed more or less all the arguments that I would've liked to express on this subject.

 

My enthusiasm and energy for engaging in the subject has been dramatically diminished - I was talking to much I feel the further arguments from my side may only constitute hidden agendas, which I don't have.

 

I look down at the narrow-minded expressions of ethnic nationalism (this comment is not in any way directed at you or any others in the forum). I have been pleased, and have enjoyed my interactions with you and the rest of the members of the forum, even if I have come hard on some. I love you all! You all are good men and women, and God bless you and keep you.

 

As I have mentioned before, I am a stunt supporter of the Armenian Statehood, and don't see the value or the need for the preservation of Armenian identity outside this framework. I am also a very stunt individualist, and cherish my own independence not any less than Armenia's.

 

In my own, non-traditional, and a little subtle way, I am also a supporter of the Armenian Church. I have grown up with the same values and attitudes towards the Armenian Church as the rest of you.

 

But perceptions and views evolve and grow. When something is wrong on a large scale in a society, or in a nation, and it remains wrong for centuries, I think perhaps there is a fundamental reason for it. When the organism is ill, one should not try to treat the symptoms, but eliminate the causes of the illness. I think the causes may be associated with the most fundamental attributes of the identity.

 

Most frequently, when we love something a lot, we look at it and search for and see what we love in it. We don’t see what it really is. And I think we love more our image, and the symbols, than ourselves. By in large, throughout centuries, may be for the sake of self-preservation, or perhaps so that to have reasons to justify in our own eyes the reasons for our own existence (as if we ourselves question that need), we have built a world of images, symbols, dreams and fantasies, and have started to live in an imaginary world. We have developed a dual identity – one for the imaginary world, one for the real one. And we fight not with the enemies or with each other, but our two different origins of identity fight with each other. The fight with the enemies and each other is a simple consequence of our dual identity.

 

It reminds me the well-known allegory on the wise man, who walks with a telescope in his hands, while enjoying looking at the sky and studying it without looking at his feet, and he falls into a well.

 

I think it is good to have a lot of opinions, and it is even greater to have strong opinions. There is no need for artificial unity. Where the unity starts, the progress dies there. All we need to learn is to respectfully disagree, and it is not very hard.

 

Anyway, I would enjoy interacting with all of you on neutral and non-loaded issues, but will refrain from engaging in arguments and debates. After all, there is not much new to be said. Everything we have articulated in our arguments was articulated before our times, and for long time, perhaps.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

Dear MJ let me first tell you how much I enjoy 'talking ' to you.

 

I am a Melkoniantsi and I have a clear view about the various texts ,books , articles written in Soviet Armenia. Our school was full of them. Many teachers were brought from there, most of whom I adore.

I've been in Soviet Armenia twice ( in 1983 and 1986 ).

 

Where was the Armenian Church of Echmiatdzin in the first International Armenian Congress held in the begginings of the 50's in the States? If my history memory is not betraying me , they were not ALLOWED to join.

 

I know that especially the Armenian Church was well treated by the Soviet regimes , however only if they behaved. The late Yerchangahishadag Vazken Catholicos was , besides his spiritual role, an excellent politician ( now , don't start by saying that this was not his role) , he knew how to keep the balances.That is why the Armenian Church managed to survive the various porgroms that the rest Churches suffered.

 

Yes , the church of Jesus is one and it is spiritual , but don't forget the circumstances . After all in order to preserve itself , our Church had to become militant( if I am allowed to use the expression), and politically involved .

I am not going into the spiritual and theoretical role of the Church , but only at its role as a nation preservative.

 

I believe that this talk can go on forever , but it seems our points will never converge.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by hayemyes:
Garo jan, I really suggest you delete "heyhye"'s disgraceful post, so that when odars come to our forum and read his post, we don't feel embarrassed or anything cuz we Armenians are known as the first Christian ppl on Earth. I can't stand seeing someone insult our Lord, Jesus Christ's Father. I understand that everyone has the right to have his own point of view about religion, but that doesn't mean that this guy can insult others' religion. Like I've said before, if ur not Christian, ur not Armenian! So, "heyhye" ur a disgrace to our ppl.

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His account has the same status now as Iranyar's.