Christianity

[Guest]

I've suggested to the webmaster to open forum called Christianity, but he refused... I think this is wrong! Our religion is very important to us and it is part of our history and culture. With out GOD, the Most High, Armenians as a Nation would not survive.

 

GOD is everything!

GOD is the creator of this world!

GOD bless you all!

GOD bless you webmaster

[Guest]

an Atheist "Armenian" should not call himself an Armenian!!!

[Guest]

The webmaster didn't refuse it Artur!

He said if he see that the users are interested in active discussions about religion he'll setup separate forum.

He suggested to open some religious topics in General forum.

Am I wrong?

[Guest]

Artur jan

es inchu es espes Ziyratsats ?

Ary mi mi bajak Ban xmenk asenk xosek

te Qristoneyutyan MAsin es Uzum Xosel Achkis vra mi hat el dra hamar xmenk te che borokum es borokelov ban chi linum

mi shish ban ber tesnenk inch enk anum

zakuskin el im vra

Garik jan Aper mi hat es verevi simvoleri ~ mej Haykakan Xorovatsy & Conyaki & Vodkayi simvol avelatsrea eli vor mek mek ster harmarvenk

Garo jan Bravo Artakarg gorts es anum astvats qez hajorutyun ta amsi 31 vor lav antsnes , te che tesnum es mer huysn u havat@ du es.

apsos en voskejuri mekanank tsaxetsink te che gitses che voskejur eyi anelu

 

Dzerkt

de lav HAyer jan k@xosenk der

Movses

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Artur:
an Atheist "Armenian" should not call himself an Armenian!!!

---

Sorry Artur, I can't agree with that.

I'm an Armenian. My family are Armenian. I am not a Christian. Does this mean that Christian Armenians are 'better Armenians' than me ?

YOur religion should be unrelated to your nationality. We have no control on to the family we are born to. Just because I am born into a certain Nationality, doesn't mean I have to unquestionably accept the Religion that Armenia is associated with.

We have free thought. I don't think we should always be what is expected of us.

[Guest]

Who r u then? Atheist?

Have you read the history of Armenia?

Do you know how many people died to keep our religion? Do you know how many people chose rather be dead than to change religion? Do you know that if Armenians would adapt Islam during Turkish attack most of them would survive... And now ask yourself, are you an Armenian, r u as dedicated as these people?

 

Ah...GOD is the judge for you!

I am not going to say anything, your choice is your choice. But one day on the Judgement you will realise that you were wrong and you will pay for it in full!

[Guest]

Uzum eyi chxosel es temmayi shurj bays te chem karror yete chasem sirts k@traki .

bavakanin jamanka im kartsikov yete Hy@ Ahye Aralkelakan Lusavorchakan yekeretsun chi Hamakrum yev kam chi iyt kronkits chi Hye chi

.

sakayn cham gtnum vor sa 100% jisht er.

chnayats vor srtis xorrkum norits iyt em mtatsum.

iysor Azgi Kronki masin aselu shat baner kan .

arachin HYe Yekeretsin shat e tulatsrel ir Dirker@. Hayastanum chem yerel yerkar jamank chem karror urishneri asatsov kartsik asel

sakayn iyster LOs Angelos Yekeretsin shat turyl e . Vorpes yekeretsy kam Yekeretsakaner aveli shat $$$$ Bussnesi hetevits kam Gerezmanatan@ ter vorormya kartalu kan azgaKrtman yev azgi hogyevor vijaki barelavman mej. vorosh KUSAKTSUTYAN kormits hovanavorvats yekeretsiner unen Shabatorya vjarovi Haykakan dprotsner.

isk vor@ Bavarar che mer matar serndi voch hogyevor yev voch el azgayin krtutyan@.

gutse yev sa e patjar@ vor vorosh Hayer@ poxum en irents kronk@ darnum Yehofakaner yev kam Noratsin-cristonyaneryve iylen..V ori hamar yerkar jamanka shateri hat em tshnamatsel kani vro hokus xorkum irents HAy chem janachum sakayn kasem vor irenst merrk@ chi sa iyl HAykakan Yekeretsu vor@ zichum e ir dirker@, yev kartsem te Hye Yekeretsin mez vra iyskan el ashxatank chi katarum yev zbarvum nor serundi hogyevor krtutyan yev zargatsman hamar.

Jisht e tsnvel yev metsatsel em naxkin USSR -um ur kronk asvats@ miyayn (pakagtseri ) mej er, sakayn hargum em kronk yev kronavornerin voronk pahel yev pahpanel en azgayin harsturtyuner mer patmutyun@ gri arel yev lezun mer hayots kendani pahel chnayats vor verchin 800 tarineri @entaskum portsel en jnjel iyn shat otarner,

 

Partavorvats em zgum vorpes Hye Patkanel Hay Lusavorchakan Arakelots echmiyatsnakan Haykakan Govakan Yekeretsun,

 

HAyr mer Vor Yerkins es

Surb yeritsy anun ko

Yegestse arqayutyun ko

Yeritsi kamk ko

Vorpes yerkins yev yerkri

Z@hats mer anapazord

Tur mez iysor

Yev tor mez z@partiz mez

Vorpes yev mek torunk

Meronts partapanats

Yev mi tanir z@ mez e portutyun

Iyl prkya z@ mez i chare

Zi ko e Arqayutyun yev Zorutyun

Yev parq havitens Amen

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Artur:
Who r u then? Atheist?

---

Artur,

I have nothing but the highest respect for those Armenians who chose death over being forced to change beliefs.

These people are examples to us all. Their principals and integrity can never be questioned.

But being Armenian does not only mean being Christian. My family are Armenian Orthodox Christians, this is their beliefs.

Me, i'm not too sure. I believe that all religions have good & bad points, and chose to take my own view of the world. i belive in the Creation, but not an interventualist God.

But I am, and always will be an Armenian.

Dan.

[Guest]

I have such mixed feelings on this. At one point in my life I argued that it would have been better had Armenia accepted the religion of our conquerors. At another, I knelt at the altar with my guy (a move that was so spiritual and heartfelt that we both dropped at the same time without so much as exchanging one word).

 

It is said that when two armenians come together in a foreign land, the first thing they do is build a church. True. And that's why we've survived for so long under such adverse circumstances. However, I have no respect for organized religion. I have never been to church on Sunday for the sermon, and I will not go. A registered Republican, I completely agree with the marxist view that "religion is the opiate of the people" (interesting coexistence of differing ideas, isn't it?). I see the Church--of any creed-- (the institution itself) as nothing but a collection of greedy, corrupt would-be preachers of god's word.

 

now God, and true spirituality is a different issue altogether: that I believe in. It has often been in a solitary contemplation of my faith that I've made my biggest decisions. It's brought me inner peace. I think every single individual has his own spiritual path to follow, one that may or may not coincide with religion as we know it. Who's to say whose path is the correct one?

 

g.s.

[Guest]

Artur jan,

 

I don't mean to offend you or anyone else who might feel strongly on this issue. It's just that in my experience (and I was talking about Armenian clergy when I said that) the clergy is corrupt and interested solely in the expansion of their own pockets, not in "saving souls", so to speak. Example: I go to church periodically and for years now (as I described in my previous entry). I walked in one day, put in some money and reached for the candles, only to find (to my immeasurable astonishment) the clergyman saying "you can only take a certain number of candles for that amount"...I think you've come to know just how outspoken I can be...so I looked at him and said "Astvatsnele tsaxu, ter hayr????"....he had nothing else to say. He recognizes me now and says nothing. While I won't stop going to church for a few corrupt clergymen, this is not an isolated incident, Artur jan. If they're not charging for candles, they're taking the people's money in form of contributions.

 

At any rate, that's how I feel.

 

(aside: I checked out your web page, artur.. dude, what's that big --is it gold?--cross? you're wearing in one of the pics?...lol.. cracked me up)

 

arayzhm )

g.s.

[Guest]

What do you mean by organised religion???

Maybe in America churches and the name of The LORD, the Most High, are used in some corupt way, but in Armenia every church is the house of GOD and people visit it, nomatter how rich strong or weak and poor they are.

About conquerors religion: if would change our religion most of the people who died would be alived now, but we did not change, because our faith and love to our religion and culture and love to GOD is more expensive than life. We have to be very proud and be happy that our nation is not a nation of weak people, but people who belive in GOD and would die in the name of the LORD. That's why every Armenian in the world no matter if he/she is 100%, but have an Armenian blood is very proud to be an Armenian.

 

GOD bless the souls of those people who suffered and died in the name of the LORD, and whose souls are in heaven!.

 

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArmenianCleopatra:

 

I have such mixed feelings on this. At one point in my life I argued that it would have been better had Armenia accepted the religion of our conquerors. At another, I knelt at the altar with my guy (a move that was so spiritual and heartfelt that we both dropped at the same time without so much as exchanging one word).

 

It is said that when two armenians come together in a foreign land, the first thing they do is build a church. True. And that's why we've survived for so long under such adverse circumstances. However, I have no respect for organized religion. I have never been to church on Sunday for the sermon, and I will not go. A registered Republican, I completely agree with the marxist view that "religion is the opiate of the people" (interesting coexistence of differing ideas, isn't it?). I see the Church--of any creed-- (the institution itself) as nothing but a collection of greedy, corrupt would-be preachers of god's word.

 

now God, and true spirituality is a different issue altogether: that I believe in. It has often been in a solitary contemplation of my faith that I've made my biggest decisions. It's brought me inner peace. I think every single individual has his own spiritual path to follow, one that may or may not coincide with religion as we know it. Who's to say whose path is the correct one?

 

g.s.

---

[Guest]

God is the Judge for these people who uses the name of the LORD in such way, they'll burn in hell for their sins.

Which church is that? In some english churches bishops are even married and have children... Another example, as I said my father works in Kazakhstan, and in our city there is a very nice Russian church. The bishop of this church is a pure alcoholic... But i go to that church while I am in Kazakhstan, because my faith is strong, and I don't care who they are...

Whatever they do, whatever they say, shouldn't concern you, GOD is the judge for them, that's what I can only say, it is very sad...

 

Cross is my father's present for my 18 birthday.

 

Artur Asatryan

[Guest]

Hi guys,

Well, I can't talk about the clergymen, because I have never had a problem with them and hope not to, but I will have to agree with Arthur. As long as we recognize the blood and souls that have been sacrificed in order top KEEP CHRISTIANITY AS THE OFFICIAL RELIGION NOT OF ARMENIA BUT OF ALL THE ARMENIAN SOULS IN THIS WIDE WORLD, we must recognize that Christianity is one of those important points or qualities that makes someone Armenian. Now, I'm not talking about someone being more Armenian than the other, no that's not the case. What I'm talking about is that YOU'RE ARMENIAN, YOU'RE CHRISTIAN. Let's talk about what makes someone Armenian. Speaking Armenian (of course), recognizing the Aremnian Genocide, listening to Armenian music, going to Armenian Community Centers. But most important of all, GOING TO CHURCH, PRAYING TO THE GOOD LORD AND BEING A GOOD CHRISTIAN AND LIVING LIKE A GOOD CHRISTIAN.

 

May GOD bless all Armenians.

[Guest]

While I find it difficult to accept the idea that an Armenian can be something other than Christian,we must remember there was an Armenia before Christianity. Also what are your thoughts on Uniates(Catholics) and Protestant Armenians. Watch it! Though baptized in the Armenian Church, I am protestant by practice now.

[Guest]

Artur, nice try, but it is hard for me to agree with the forceful Christianity being preached here. Nothing personal, though. You’re just opening a very controversial topic.

First of all, the faith in GOD is a personal one, and no Church has to be in between man and the GOD. I agree with those who say that the Churches are institutions that exist for their own sake. As far as the Armenian Church is concerned, if we where to grade the institutionalized religions in modern times, I think the Armenian Church (or the Armenian twist of Christianity) would’ve been in the bottom of the scale along with the Russian one. (By the way, I used to think like you until I got more familiarized with the subject).

 

The corruption in the Armenian Church was reflected in the last elections of the Catholicos of All Armenians.

As far as the victims of the religious wars are concerned, that is also a controversial issue. First of all one has to blame the churches for most of the wars. For our Armenian reality, this is even more controversial. The very fact of collapsing the Armenian identity to just belonging to the Armenian Church is faulty. If all those who have died defending the Armenian Church or religious identity had the determination to fight and die not for the religion, but for the Armenian statehood, Armenia today would've been in much different condition. On the other hand, many have died defending the country, but were not particularly religious, and didn’t do so in the name of the Lord. What do you have to say about them – dismiss them? The inability to separate what belongs to the God and what belongs to the Caesar is characteristic of the defenders of the Armenian Church (as an institution).

 

Note, that Jesus didn’t establish an Armenian Church, nor he did establish a Catholic, Protestant, etc. Churches. Jesus didn’t preach Christianity, nor he established religion. I can say the same about Mohammed. If anything, Jesus criticized the clergy ("dpirner" ev "kahananer"). The only time Jesus used the word Church was in the context of man's body being the temple of God. Also he explained the Church as being the “coming together of three men, and talking in his name. “

 

Nowhere in the scripture there is a mention of a building, with a cross on the top, and a man on the crown. In fact, the Armenian Church claims that The Acts by Apostle Paul is the one part of the scripture, to which the Armenian Church is especially close too in spirit. But the Armenian Church has always been in violation of what even Apostle Paul preached, that is to not go after the symbols of faith, and to not substitute faith with superstition. Even today’s practices common in the Armenian Church are reminiscent of the pagan period (for example “matagh”). Armenian, by in large, have stayed pagan throughout the history. I guess, even the Church itself has not understood the mystery of Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection. Easter has just been a day to bring the people to the Church, and collect contributions. Yes, it also has been a day of egg fighting.

 

As far as the victims of the religious wars are concerned, I have opened a new topic on the subject of the responsibility of the Armenian Church in the Degradation of the Armenian Statehood. I would leave this argument for that section, but would rather try to engage only in discussions about the faith, its personal character, separation of religion from the faith, and national identity vs. national religion in this section.

 

I don’t want to talk for others. But if you want to share your faith with me in this forum, or elsewhere I appreciate your motivations. But please don’t mix it with Armenia, national belonging, or especially with the Armenian statehood. Armenia has already suffered too much for it.

 

And please, get rid of that cross. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Both Jesus and Spartak(us), as well as a lot of innocent and criminal people have been tortured on the cross before and after Christ. And read again The Acts, please.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 29, 2000).]

[Guest]

I think there is a big difference between being a Christian and being a member of a church. Insitutionalized religion is like institutionalized anything else, created by men for their own intentions and purposes.

 

The Armenian church, over the centuries has been a disgrace to our people. Indeed it can be argued (sorry MJ, only now I realized what you were talking about in your proposed topic) that Armenia´s decay started with the church interference in state affairs.

 

I think we can discuss this topic in much further detail, including all the historical instances where the church opted for itself rather than the people.

[Guest]

Agreed.

[Guest]

Boghos jan,

 

You say the Armenian Church has been a disgrace to the Armenian people? What exactly do you base that on? Isn't that a bit of a sweeping generalization? Believe me, don't take me for a conservative Armenian, if you read my postings you would see that I am not. But I know the Armenian Church has been the glue that has held the Armenian people together for centuries.

[Guest]

Boghos, I appologize for jumping in ahead of you. Just wanted to reply.

 

The function of the Armenian Church was not to glue the Armenian people together. That function belongs to the Armenian statehood. The function of any church is to be the spiritual leader of the people it represents.

[Guest]

Yes my friend, but there wasn't a state of Armenia for centuries, hence the Church unified the people.

[Guest]

And the absence of the state was entirely in the interests of the Church. Especially, when it came to collecting the "tasnord" taxes. As a matter of fact, one may ask a question how come all the invaders tolerated the autonomy of the Armenian Church, if it was not providing the type of leadership that suited the enslavement of the Armenian people? Why would the Armenian Church suppress the feelings of national liberation movements throughout centuries?

[Guest]

I think that Armenian Church's historic influence on the Armenian people has been dual. Let's take some individuals and facts as examples.

 

1.Mesrop Mashtots and Sahak Partev: plus

2.Armenian clergy's fight against King Pap: minus

3.Mass paticipation of clergy in Avarair battle: plus

4.Betrayal of Catholicos Petros Getadars : minus

5.Schools, scientific centers etc: plus

6.Constant bribery: minus

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Berj (edited August 30, 2000).]

[Guest]

Steve jan,

 

I don´t take you for a conservative Armenian, not at all. Let me give you an analogy that I have the sense you will like: Judaism. It is not a perfect analogy but I hope it helps.

[Guest]

I am amazed with you MJ. Probably you are a Hayasdantsi Hay, otherwise you would know that the Armenian Diaspora exists because of the Armenian church. Like it or not it was the institution ( along with the political parties, schools ) that kept us together, that kept us Armenians.

Probably the Armenian church is full of economically motivated clergymen , but this does not diminish the soul of this Institution.

 

Let me refresh our memories a bit : Why did king Dertad addopt Christianity and established our Church?

He saw the danger of our nation being absorbed by the mighty Persian empire , since we used to share not only similar religion but also similar traditions . We would have become Persians.

 

King Bab cut the ties with the Greek Orthodox Church , Why? Because the Greeks started mingling into our political and state affairs.

In a similar way , sultan Muhammad II the Conqueror of Constantinopole , created the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinopole , in order to diminish the Greek infuence.

 

The old City of Jerusalem is divided into 4 sections , one of which is the Armenian one with our strong and influential Patriarchate.

It ensures and proves our historical presense in the Middle East.

 

Spartacus? You reminded me of the numerous statues of him all over the Soviet Bloc. How can you compare him with Jesus?

 

I can go on and on forever , but please don't insult our most precious institution.

Man is weak and full of faults , so might be our clergymen, but this does not cancel the importance of the Armenian Church.

 

The Armenian State is full of corrupted and selfish public servants. Do we say that we should not have a government ? No , we fight to correct the faults and weaknesses of the government , becasue after all they are part of us . So is our Church.

[Guest]

Raffi,

 

I beg to disagree. The diaspora remained Armenian mostly, because of (and sometimes in spite of) institutions such as AGBU, ARF, ARS, and much less because of the church. These are the ones that sponsored schools, clubs, and so on that kept our language and culture alive and in day to day practice in the diaspora. Not our corrupt, mostly uneducated, self-important clergy.