CASE OF TURKISH "DR. MENGELE"

[khodja]

I have read that there was a Italian doctor in the employ of the Ittihadist leaders during the Genocide, who took great pleasure in torturing Armenians, especially Armenian priests. He would sit in the next room as these priests underwent the most excruciating pain and revel in pleasure. What could have caused him to wish this upon these priests? What predicated this?

[Rubo]

Dear Hagarag are you sure he was Italian and not 1/8 Persian, 2/9 Turk, 7/8 Mongol, 1/89 Jewish, 7/78 Irish 3/4 Arab, 1/15 Algerian?

 

How can we be sure?

 

 

It should not suprise you that he was a sadist piece of shit!

[khodja]

It is documented that he was Italian, as his fathe was a famous Italian doctor. He is long dead so we can not do DNA tests on im to determine his earlier genetics. I know that my refering to present DNA studies showing us to be descended form Jews and Mongols upsets many of you to the point that you would want to do to me what this doctor did. These same fools are OK with the French in us.

[Rubo]

Hagarag I actually find you hilarious!

If you have not done a DNA test on this “Italian” then how can you say the entire BS about the Armenians. Have you done a single DNA test on an Armenian? Please do not refer about the BS research done by Russian scientists about Jewish studies. That particular study had no real facts. How many Armenians, Kurds, Turks were tested and where did they picked their samples. There is no real conclusive evidence about your continued ascertains about Armenians. Nobody is saying we don’t have any none Armenian blood but you make it sound like our ancestors spread their legs to every bold, ugly invader. This is just not true and I question your self-hatred being an 75% Armenian. Why are you so eager to crap on Armenians? What exactly ticks you off other then politics republican etc. why do you embrace theories which has not been studied? Rational person waits until facts become clear and yet you already claim Armenians to be mixed fruit juice beyond original flavor. Cool off Haga and dust off your biases.

[khodja]

Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan, an esteemed ROA geneticist who is doing state-of-the art DNA research at University College London as a Royal British Fellow, discovered the statistically high occurence of the Cohen Modal haplotype among a broad cross-section of Armenians, not just those emanating from Van and Dickrangerd. As for our Chinese/Mongol roots not all of it came from rape by invaders. The Kingdom of Cilicia had an alliance with the Mongols, many of whom converted to Armenian Christianity and assimilated into the Armenians. Furthermore the Mamikonian clan were descended from two noble Chinese brothers.

 

Rubo, you show your racial/ethnic biases when you claim that my statements are self-hatred.

[Rubo]

Dear Hagarag

I find Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan research to be highly dubious. I read all the articles on the net about this research and he does not publish his methods. His conclusions are extremely broad which does not say much. He is at best being speculative. If you can find hard data would you show it to the forum?

Another important point, Mamikonian family was suspected to be Chinese descended and so what, does it make ten, twenty percent Armenians Chinese descended too?

 

Hagarag> The Kingdom of Cilicia had an alliance with the Mongols, many of whom converted to Armenian Christianity and assimilated into the Armenians

 

Please prove your theory with facts. This is a broad statement without substance. If again true, then what percentage was it? I suspect a small amount since logically I am yet to see an Armenian with Mongol eyes or any other feature to suggest our Mongol roots.

Hagarag Armenia- unlike French, Germans, Russians who have large degree of assimilations from other races- relatively kept its identity intact which explains our survival through centuries without losing our identity. I can argue the opposite if anything Armenians for large part are ethnically and genetically predominantly homogeneous.

[Sip]

So let's even suppose this bastard was an Italian ... 100%

 

What then? Are we picking fights with italians now because of this guy? Does it matter if he was 95% Italian or less?

[Rubo]

Good morning Sip! The Italian is not important what is important is Hagarag’s continued repeated use of this bogus genetic study to prove his biases. If one makes a repeated statements regarding Armenians then one should eventually get down and prove his theories otherwise it is annoying to find the same statements in just about every thread. By the way I am not fighting but debating.

Regards

[Sip]

Morning? Already? Ah Crap ... I sometimes wish days were 49 hours long But Good Morning to you too!

 

Debating? With Hagarag? I didn't think that was possible (well, according to some others on the board).

 

The only thing I was trying to understand here is whether there has been any documented systematic involvment by some Italians or it's just this individual (and maybe a few others) that happened to be of race "epsilon")?

 

[ September 04, 2002, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Rubo]

Morning? Already? Ah Crap ... I sometimes wish days were 49 hours long

What were you smoking! Give me some!Can’t do it alone

[Rubo]

I am sorry that I am detoured from the original topic but it is prudent to dislodge the myths.

On a different note most Jews that I encountered were predominantly mixture of the ethnic races of the country they inhabited even though they may have had only fraction of Jewish lineage they nevertheless claimed to be Jewish even without practicing Judaism. My friend Katia a Russian called me last week with noticeable excitement. She discovered that from her mother side her great grandmother was part Jewish and she claimed to be Jewish as well. When I politely mentioned that her Jewishness is a fraction of her heritage and no way that qualifies her to be Jewish, she frowned at me claiming it didn’t matter. That is peculiar most people like Canadians, Americans when asked about their linage they mentioned all of them but with Jews the fraction of the Jewish linage is enough to override the rest of the ethnic heritage. This goes along the logic of “chosen people” and race supremacy otherwise why would you choose one fraction of the linage against the majority of none Jewish linage?

 

 

Russian Jewish Genetics

A collection of abstracts and reviews of books, articles, and genetic studies

Last Update: September 4, 2002

 

This page is the most comprehensive summary of Jewish genetic data. In recent years, advances in genetic technology and the broadening in scope of genetic studies to encompass more ethnic groups have allowed scientists to come to more accurate conclusions. Nevertheless, not all questions have been answered fully, and followup studies are necessary. At the present time, it is known that Eastern European Jews have a significant Eastern Mediterranean element which manifests itself in a close relationship with Kurdish, Armenian, Palestinian Arab, Lebanese, Syrian, and Anatolian Turkish peoples. At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic) and Khazar ancestry among European Jews. Ethiopian Jews mostly descend from Ethiopian Africans who converted to Judaism , but may also be related to a lesser extent to Yemenite Jews. Yemenite Jews descend from Arabs and Israelites. North African Jewish and Kurdish Jewish paternal lineages come from Israelites. Additional research is necessary, and it will certainly take several more years to sort it all out. All existing studies fail to compare modern Jewish populations' DNA to ancient Judean DNA and medieval Khazarian DNA, and many of them focus on paternal ancestries rather than maternal ancestries, so the extrapolations and assumptions made by geneticists may not necessarily be correct. Studies that do take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally.

[Rubo]

A study by Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin, of the Department of Haematology and

Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University of South Australia

 

* Some useful markers were not used in the studies that should have

been.

 

* The Cohen modal haplotype is the most common haplotype among

Southern Italians*1, Central Italians*2, Hungarians*3, and Iraqi

Kurds*4, and is also found among Armenians*5 and South African

Lembas*6. This calls into question the notion that the haplotype

originated with the ancient Israelites and that it was found mostly

among ancient Jewish priests.

 

Many lines of historical and archaeological evidence, as summarized in the

book "The Jews of Khazaria" by Kevin Alan Brook (Jason Aronson Inc.,

Northvale, N.J., 1999), indicate that Jewish populations around the world

descend from a variety of maternal and paternal origins, including not

only Israelites but also Berbers, Arabs, Khazars, Romans, Hittites,

Idumeans, Persians, Ethiopians, Abayudayans, Germans, Slavs, and other

groups.

Preliminary genetic studies of mtDNA (from maternal ancestries) have

already demonstrated the connections between Jewish populations and

non-Jewish populations.

 

There are additionally many hundreds of thousands of converts to Judaism

living in the present time. The only common denominator binding all

Jewish groups and individuals together is religion. Separately,

legitimate doubts have been raised about the conclusions of Ariella

Oppenheim et al. and Harry Ostrer et al. that Jews are most closely

related to populations like the Palestinians and Lebanese and that they

have only small amounts of descent from conversions and intermarriages.

Historical, anthropological, ethnographic, and genetic evidence does not

support the contention that Jews are a homogeneous ethnicity. It is hoped

that additional studies will help to clarify these questions and to

provide a more objective and accurate analysis of Jewish ethnogenesis.

 

Once again I apoligize for talking about this on genocide thread.It is very abvious that nothing is conclusive thus far and dear Hagarag please refrain using "the state of the art...research..." again.

[khodja]

Rubo,

 

You are being VERY selective in choosing your references. You have ignored the y-chromosome studies. You refer to the studies of those VEHEMENTLY opposed to the conclusions of Yepiskoposyan and others PRIMARILY on political and geopolitical grounds. Some Israelis want to have NOTHING to do with us and many Armenians want NOTHING to do with the Jews. These kinds of findings make both these groups VERY uncomfortable.

 

As for the Mongolian connection, it is well documented in Armenian historical journals. Does Burt Reynolds exhibit any Asian characteristics of his partial Native American heritage? I see vestiges of the East Asian in our people often at Armenian events. After a few centuries it is very subtle. The genes don't lie, however.

[Rubo]

The New York Times (May 14, 2002). Excerpts:

 

"The emerging genetic picture is based largely on two studies, one published two years ago and the other this month, that together show that the men and women who founded the Jewish communities had surprisingly different genetic histories.... A new study now shows that the women in nine Jewish communities from Georgia, the former Soviet republic, to Morocco have vastly different genetic histories from the men.... The women's identities, however, are a mystery, because, unlike the case with the men, their genetic signatures are not related to one another or to those of present-day Middle Eastern populations.... The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other colleagues, appears in The American Journal of Human Genetics this month.... His [Goldstein's] own speculation, he said, is that most Jewish communities were formed by unions between Jewish men and local women, though he notes that the women's origins cannot be genetically determined.... Like the other Jewish communities in the study, the Ashkenazic community of Northern and Central Europe, from which most American Jews are descended, shows less diversity than expected in its mitochondrial DNA, perhaps reflecting the maternal definition of Jewishness. But unlike the other Jewish populations, it does not show signs of having had very few female founders. It is possible, Dr. Goldstein said, that the Ashkenazic community is a mosaic of separate populations formed the same way as the others.... 'The authors are correct in saying the historical origins of most Jewish communities are unknown,' Dr. [shaye] Cohen [of Harvard University] said. 'Not only the little ones like in India, but even the mainstream Ashkenazic culture from which most American Jews descend.'.... If the founding mothers of most Jewish communities were local, that could explain why Jews in each country tend to resemble their host community physically while the origins of their Jewish founding fathers may explain the aspects the communities have in common, Dr. Cohen said.... The Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA's in today's Jewish communities reflect the ancestry of their male and female founders but say little about the rest of the genome... Noting that the Y chromosome points to a Middle Eastern origin of Jewish communities and the mitochondrial DNA to a possibly local origin, Dr. Goldstein said that the composition of ordinary chromosomes, which carry most of the genes, was impossible to assess. 'My guess,' Dr. Goldstein said, 'is that the rest of the genome will be a mixture of both.'"

 

The Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA's in today's Jewish communities reflect the ancestry of their male and female founders but say little about the rest of the genome... Noting that the Y chromosome points to a Middle Eastern

 

Last time I checked Armenia is considered to be in Asia Minor

[Arpa]

What do you say boys and girls, shall we rename this forum HymieForum instead of HyeForum? Shall we address our kahanas as kohenas?

What does the Y-chromosome stand for? Yahudi?

That BS about we being of Jewish heritage or Mongolian descent is a bunch of crap. We are and always have been Armenians. If we share some genes with other people it is simply because we belong to the Homo-Sapien persuasion and we share some genes not only with the Pygmies we also share them with the chimpanzees and the gorillas (more than 90 %). Armenians have not come from any place, they have been on those lands since the dawn of time.

As to the Mamikonians being of Chinese or Mongolian descent, read Khorenatsi again. All he says that they were from the east and many interpret that to be no further than Media or Kashmir at best. I think they were Tocharians.

It reminds me of the story by Grigor Zohrab. When a student was asked where "herastan" was he tried to place it somewhere in Asia since many of those countries have names ending in -stan. It was a cruel practical joke, it was play on words. "herastan" simply means a far away place. What Khorenatsi meant was that the Mamikonians were from "herastan".

How herou is Herastan?

[gamavor]

Hagarag Oglu,

 

Enough is enough!

I will volunteer to subject myself for a DNA examination and if you don't find any freaking Semitic cells in my body I will make you eat (physically) the paper with the results.

[Harut]

so, why do you start your day 25 hours earlier?

 

there is a joke like that, right?

 

Q: how long do you sleep in a day?

Abarantsi: 25 hrs.

Q: what? there are only 24 hrs in a day!

Abarantsi: i sleep an hr earlier.

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

I do not have the expertise to conduct your genetic tests nor the facilities. I suggest that you contact Dr. Yepiskoposyan in London at University College London. He and his staff will be able to determine if you have any "Semitic" genes. If your antecedents are from Dickrangert, Vaspouragan, Van, or Ani/Julfa there are greater chances that you descend from Jews. If yor antecedents are from Giligia there is a greater chance that you descend form French or Mongols.

[gamavor]

Hagarag all you say is cheap Jewish propaganda.

Jewish population of Armenia was relatively small compared to other countries.

It is well recorded that many Jews were brought to Armenia during the reign of Tigran the Great as slaves and craftsmen. Naturally many of them probably intermarried with Armenians.

Other possible hypothesis for Armenians being close to Semitic peoples is the intermarriages with Assyrians. Knowing how conservative Jews are with regard to marrying non-Jews (in religious and ethnic sense) I don't believe that Semitic genes are mass occurrence among Armenians.

Cilicians intermarried with French and German not in mass. Some aristocratic circles intermarried with Crusaders and Dukes, which was common practice in the Middle Ages among all people, most of the time for diplomatic and political reasons.

The presence of Mongol features among SOME Armenians also could be explained with Mongol raids in 11 century first as aggressors and later as allies.

The point is: Probably 3-4 out of 10 people who perceive themselves as Armenians today are people with mix ancestry. If you conduct the same study among other nations, say Greeks, Bulgarians, Jews, not to speak about Romanians, Poles, Austrians etc., you will have much more diverse gene pool compared with those of Armenians.

Your persistent rambling about Armenians being not pure, (who cares after all) is an evidence of your personal identity problem and insecurity which I believe is too late to be fixed because of your age. If you try do prove that Armenians are mix people, well they were conceived as a mix of several Aryan tribes and probably several non Aryan tribes.

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

I have no doubt that the majority of the Armenian genepool is based upon the tribes of Nairi, Hayasa-Azzi, and Arme-Shupria. BUT there are other strains as well which reveal themselves in genetic studies. The Jewish strain occurred in three phases. 722 BC, when Israelites were dispersed in the area of Armenia, early Christian times especially about 400 AD when all the Christian Jews "disappeared" from Anatolia, and during the Middle Ages when many Jews assimilated into the Armenians in the centers of high learning due to their research into the similarites of Armenian Christianity with Judaism.

 

I do not buy the fanatic ethno-centrism of most Armenians, which was developed into a fervor in the 19th centuryfor political reasons, you Gamavor being a prime example of an adherent of this philosophy.

[gamavor]

Hagarag,

 

All I can say is that I respect Jews for their creativity and smartness. I'm all for friendship between the nations, but I think you need to go to another forum. You don't belong here!

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

Is this not the Hye Forum? Why do I not belong here? Does being 1/8 Assyrian disqualify me? I look to my late father, a 100% Armenian who suffered greatly due to the events of his life (primarily Genocide) and my late mother who was 75% Armenian, who also suffered due to the Genocide, and then I ask why does Gamavor state that I do not belong here?

[gamavor]

There is a long and short answer to your question. In both cases its a matter of choice and determination.

I will choose to give you the short one which would be an example:

Back in Bulgaria i have many friends who have (or had) many non-Bulgarian blood ties, such as Russian, Ukrainian, most of the time Greek, Tatar etc. but they have never hesitated to clearly express themselves as Bulgarians. To them having mix ancestry was immaterial since they have made their minds being Bulgarians. They never tried to prove to me that Bulgarians are actually non-Bulgarians, or they have never tried to calculate the exact amount of certain ethnic cells in their DNA makeup.

 

Make your mind Mr. Hagarag. That's the moral of the story.

[Rubo]

Dear Hagarag, you are displaying certain arrogance of an “expert” on these issues and yet the experts themselves, which I read most of their materials, are very unsure about their findings. Theory is not a theory unless proven and Jewish connection among Armenians is not proven. In short out of respect for this forum I politely suggest you to stay clear from making extravagant claims historical and science related without backing up with solid evidence.

 

PS You are welcome on this forum since I firmly believe in democracy. I would like to stop discussing on this issue.

[khodja]

All I ask is for you to keep an open mind. Read both sides of every issue. Those of us who have lived outside the pale of Armenian culture and then entered it, see things very differently than you do. I was shocked at the level of Armenian / Jewish antipathy that I found in California when I arrived there. I came to realize that much of it was the fault of Armenians. Fortunately much of this has alleviated and we now have many allies in the Jewish community. Stop wearing your Chrisitianity as a badge of honor, and to look down at others.