Am I Odar? How do you define this?

[Guest]

Primary History of Armenia (5-6th cent.):

 

"They (Mamigonians) are descendants of the forefather of our nation, Aramaneak, but they came from China in the years of Artavan, king of the Parthians, and of Khosrov. I questioned him at the royal court: There is a noble family in Armenia, of which it is said that they have come from your country'. And he said to me: 'The bards of our country also say in their songs that Mamik and Konak were two valiant men and blood brothers of eminence, sons of Prince Karnam who was the second [in rank] in the kingdom of China. After the death of this man, their king took his wife in marriage. From her a son was born, who after the death of his father succeeded to his father's royal throne. His two brothers--from the mother, not the father--revolted against him. Bringing over a section of the princes and the army, they took an oath of unity. They hatched a wicked plot to murder their brother; Chenbakur, king of the land, and to seize his kingdom.

 

Mamik and Konak gathered their forces against him in one area of their country; the army of the country was divided into two. When Chenbakur heard this news, he too gathered the army of his part and went out to oppose them in battle. They attacked each other, smote (each other) with the sword, and the rebel army was destroyed.

 

Mamik and Konak fled to the Arsacid king who resided in Bahl-Shahastan in the land of the Kushans (modern Afghanistan/Tajikistan). And there was peace between the two kingdoms.

 

Then with great insistence Chenbakur sought them from the Parthian king: 'That he might exterminate (them). Otherwise the treaty of peace between us will be broken'. But the latter, sparing the [two] men, did not give them up into his hands but wrote to him in a friendly way: 'Let the treaty of peace, he said, remain firm between us, for I have sworn to them that they will not die. But I had them taken to the West, to the edge of the world, to that place where the sun enters its mother'.

 

Then the Parthian king ordered his army to take them under heavy guard, with their wives and sons and all their effects, to Armenia to his relative the Arsacid king, who was the king of Armenia. And there they multiplied greatly, and they became a great clan from Mamik and Konak."

[Guest]

By Movses Khorenatsi (a pro-Bagratuni historian):

 

"When Artashir, son of Sasan, died, he left the throne of Persia to his son Shapuh (240-272). In his days, they say, there came to Armenia the ancestor of the Mamikonian family from the northeast, from a valiant and noble land foremost among all the nations of the north, I mean the land of the Chinese, of whom the following tale is told:

 

In the year of Artashir's death a certain Arbok Chen-bakur, which means in their tongue "honor of the kingdom" had two foster brothers called Bkhdokh and Mamgon, who were great princes. When Bkhdokh slandered Mamgon, the Chinese king Arbok ordered Mamgon to be killed. But when Mamgon heard of this he did not heed the king's summons but fled with his entourage and came to Artashir, king of Persia. Arbok sent messengers to seek his extradition, and when Artashir refused, the king of China prepared to war against him. But at that point Artashir died and Shapuh came to the throne.

 

Now although Shapuh did not hand over Mamgon to his lord, nonetheless he did not allow him [to remain] in the land of the Aryans but sent him with all his entourage, as if exiled, to his governors in Armenia. And he sent word to the king of China, saying: 'May it not displease you that I was unable to hand over to you Mamgon, because my father had sworn to him by the light of the sun. But to cause you no trouble I have expelled him from my country to the edge of the earth in the west, which is equivalent to death for him. So let there not be war between you and me.' And because, as they say, the Chinese are the most peaceloving of all the inhabitants on the face of the earth, he agreed to make peace. So it is clear that the Chinese nation is truly devoted to peace and life.

 

Their land is wonderful in its abundance of all [varieties of] fruits; it is adorned with beautiful plants, rich in saffron, pea****s and silk. It has untold numbers of gazelles and marvellous [creatures] and the animals called 'donkey goats.' There the food of common people, they say, is what among us is aristocratic and food for the few--the pheasant and the swan and other such [delicacies]. The number of precious stones and pearls of the magnates they say no one knows. And as for garments which among us are the robes of the few, for them they are the common dress. So much for the land of China.

 

So Mamgon, having come to our country against his will, met the returning Trdat. He did not turn back with the Persian army but advanced with all his entourage to meet him with great presents. Trdat received him but did not take him with him in his war against Persia. However he gave his entourage a place [in which to settle] and a stipend for food; he changed their residence from place to place for many years.'

[Guest]

Paustos Buzand:

 

"King Pap (367-374 A.D.): This king told Prince Mushegh Mamikonian that the Mamikonians were as respect-worthy as the Armenian royal house itself. For, he says, 'their ancestors left the kingship of the land of Chenk', and came to our ancestors [in Armenia]."

 

"Mamikonian Prince Manuel boldly informed King Varazdat (374-378 A.D.) that the Mamikonians were not the vassals of the royal house, but its equals. "For", he said, "our ancestors were kings of the land of Chen. Because of a quarrel among brothers, to prevent great bloodshed we left [that land]. And to find rest, we stopped here [in Armenia]."

[Guest]

E-mail from Chinese Youth Forum:

 

" Dear Mr. Mamigonian:

 

We are truly delighted for all the interesting facts and story regarding your family ancestry. Even after more 1,800 years we as Chinese can communicate to a descendant of the ancient emperors. It is an honor. You are truly welcome to rejoin the Chinese nation and culture. Log on more often and get to know us better!"

 

Janice Xu

---------------------------------------------

 

My reply:

 

"Dear Janice and China Youth Forum,

 

I sincerely thank all the wonderful messages I received from Chinese people all over the world. It has been unbelievable! However, I realize that my ancestors left the battlefields of the "flying horse swords" almost 2,000 years ago. For us, China is only a distant memory. My ancestors made that commitment to Armenia and Armenians after they found a new home. I am an Armenian always and forever. Thank you and I will still be interested in learning more about Chinese culture."

 

Even after 1,800 years!,

Karen Mamigonian

[Guest]

I will never claim to be Indo-European or Aryan. I simply cannot. Armenian brothers and sisters, let's shed that twisted and false view that we are Indo-Aryans? I know that I can't truly claim it. Ask the KKK or Aryan Nations and see what they say about my background? I'm a mutt in their definition.

[Guest]

Dear Mr. K. Mamigonian,

 

Please do not bring your personal identity problems to this forum. Recently Armenian history has become "vanity fair" for lost souls. I respect very much Chinese people and culture but unfortunately we have nothing to do with Chinese.

KKK are as Aryan as my best friend's donkey.

 

P.S. The biggest joke is that Movses Khorenatsy was pro-Bagratuny(who undoubtedly was of semitic origin). My dear, there is a time gap of 4 centuries???!!!

[Guest]

Gavamor (what was your name again?...at least invent one if you don't care to share the original):

 

I thought Mr. Mamikonyan's story was rather interesting. And please, do let us be a little more tolerant. Everyone brings their personal problems to this forum by default; it's unavoidable.

[Guest]

Gr Mamagonian

 

I might be wrong but I get the impression you have a fear of mixed relationships and marriages.

 

What is the definition of an odar? It is a bad body or other smell.

[Guest]

The definition of being 100%, pure, etc? I don't think anyone can show me one human being this earth who is pure 100% anything! The way of life, human nature, EVOLTION is for people to travel around and meet as circumstances change. for examlpe the chinese army is mentioned. Why do you think Armenians, greeks, Lantins, etc, do not have the blonde and blue eyes we started out with, it's because throughout the ages foreigners have passed through the lands, we have passeeds through foreign lands, and that's the way it goes.

I know some armenians,greeks, italians, medditereanians and turkish are sadly, racist. But think that many have got black blood IN them anyway, especially the cypriots. Slice of hypocrisy, anyone?

What people talk about not marrying odars and not marrying anyone that's not our own , I think that view can also be challenged with this: It's not dying out, it's growing in an natural way because MORE people are becoming Hay!

How does being mixed encourage isentity crises if both the parents are comfotable with who they are , and pass both or more of the cultures down to the child, in equal measure? Dont forget the child him/herself can actually CHOOSE how much or little of this they would like to take on board! Come on, nationaliy and race is part of a person, it doesn't make a whole person.

 

And most importantly: someone wisely on the forum pointed out that we bring ethnicity TOO much into personal relationshipos and I couldnt agree MORE. Why does it matter so much anyway?

[Guest]

Gayane You Are Right,

 

I have to apologize to Karen.

Mr. Mamigonian I'm sorry!