khodja Posted November 13, 2001 Report Share Posted November 13, 2001 The officials of the Turkish government have achieved a brilliant coup. All discussion of the Genocidal events of WWI in official bodies have ceased. Is the Armenian Assembly an adjunct of the Bush Administration or a wing of the US State Department? Methinks that the AAA is much too tight with the Bush operatives to think independently. One loose-lipped Turkish official stated, shortly after TARC was formed, that the Turkish government can't kill the mosquito, so it has to drain the swamp. Mission accomplished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 14, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 Ali, I wish I could say "abracadabra" and you would instantly replace Ecevit and become the Lincolnian leader of Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 hagarag, thanks for the compliment. we have had three politicians in my family on my dad's side, my great-grandfather, my grandfather, and my dad. they were all out to save the country, and forgot to save themselves (financially speaking). when i was young (i have been writing that line for a while now, it's getting depressing) i tried to do my bit to save turkey through academia only to get disillusioned by the entire concept of academia in turkey. so at the moment i am trying to save myself. also, i am known for having opinions that differ from that of the general public over here, and i am not noted for having the political skills that others have (these latter either subscibe to the prevailing opinions or just say whatever the people want to hear - nobody wants to hear the truth). frankly speaking, i do not see myself as a man with political capabilities, but i would like to do more for the solution of turkey's conflicts, both domestically and internationally. cheers, (by the way, sorry for the delay in the 2nd half of my posting of armenians in the ottoman empire, i hope to ge it done tomorrow) [ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:everybody knows the armenians were killed. no turkish official, loose-lipped or otherwise, can make people unlearn what they know. they are merely trying to buy time. they can't do it forever.you can fool all people for some time, you can fool some people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. cheers,They don't need to do it forever. Just long enough to make the whole matter "ancient" enough to look irrelevant. And they don't need to fool everybody all of the time either. They just need to fool their own population. Complicity of the "intelligentsia" is not that hard to accomplish, since their superficial interests coincide. They don't need to fool anyone outside, but merely intimidate their allies into silence. And Turkey has been brilliant at all counts. Those among Armenians who like to believe that Turks are stupid, ignorant simpletons are only enjoying the bliss of ignorance themselves.On a more positive note, I am absolutely sure that the whole anatolia-caucasus region would become an exceptionally successful economic and intellectual powerhouse once its debilitating diseases inherited from the past have been cured. The human capital in the region is among the best in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 hagarag, everybody knows the armenians were killed. no turkish official, loose-lipped or otherwise, can make people unlearn what they know. they are merely trying to buy time. they can't do it forever. you can fool all people for some time, you can fool some people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. cheers, [ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted November 15, 2001 Report Share Posted November 15, 2001 twilight bark, they can't do it long enough to make it look ancient and irrelevant, because turkey wants to get into the eu to complete its integration with the west. since the recognition of the genocide is a prerequisite for that, they are going to recognise it if they want to get into the eu. otherwise, goodbye eu. it is true that the anatolia-caucasus region has vast potential. after all, it is the place where civilisation first appeared. let's hope that these problems will soon be solved and we will get on withthe job of making a decent place out of it again. cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 17, 2001 Report Share Posted November 17, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark:They don't need to do it forever. Just long enough to make the whole matter "ancient" enough to look irrelevant. And they don't need to fool everybody all of the time either. They just need to fool their own population. Complicity of the "intelligentsia" is not that hard to accomplish, since their superficial interests coincide. They don't need to fool anyone outside, but merely intimidate their allies into silence. And Turkey has been brilliant at all counts. Those among Armenians who like to believe that Turks are stupid, ignorant simpletons are only enjoying the bliss of ignorance themselves.TB,I find your observation being absolutely and incredibly accurate. There is only one perspective, by which recognition of the Genocide by Turkey is relevant to Armenia - Turkey's becoming of a civil society, respecting Human Life and Human Rights. First of all, it is for Turkey's own good. Second, it is good for Armenia to have such neighbor, rather than what she has now.[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 17, 2001 Report Share Posted November 17, 2001 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:twilight bark,they can't do it long enough to make it look ancient and irrelevant, because turkey wants to get into the eu to complete its integration with the west. since the recognition of the genocide is a prerequisite for that, they are going to recognise it if they want to get into the eu. otherwise, goodbye eu.It is the societal evolution that would lead to the recognition that is the prerequisite, and not the recognition per se. If one can magically make that evolution happen without the consequent recognition of the genocide, Turkey could still enter EU. What EU is afraid of is a populous and unreformed, unenlightened Turkey entering the EU, and having a big say in what goes on. Not to mention the lack of economic development that results from the absence of such an evolution.And if I put on my detached observer hat now, I sincerely want Turkey to achieve that societal evolution and enter the EU, independent of any other issue. This is on a purely humanitarian basis.Finally, I think a true "recognition" would involve a lot more than a sterile apology. One cannot absolve oneself from commiting genocide by simply saying "Yeah, I did it. Sorry.". Insistence on a simple apology and maybe "token reparations" would indicate that the desired intellectal and moral maturity has not been achieved yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted November 19, 2001 Report Share Posted November 19, 2001 It seems quite premature to attribute to TARC or any other similarly clownish initiative, a role in reducing Armenian claims in what relates to the Genocide. Indeed Turkey does devote a great deal of time and effort to negate Armenian claims, but to no avail. Even though in all fairness Genocide recognition pressure has arisen probably as much from Armenians travails as from the interests of various countries in putting pressure on Turkey for other reasons. Turkey is not exactly loved in Europe. It is a leftover from the Cold War that Europe has nott been able to shake. That is how, in realpolitik terms, how Europe perceives Turkey. As for the ordinary Turk, I think it is a complete waste of time. He´ll never accept it. He was brought up under the notion that Turkey and being Turk, is something special, one of the negative legacies of Ataturk. And also that Armenians were insidious inside Turkey and have been so ever since being deported. Trying to denigrate Turkey everywhere and everytime. In the intelligentsia it might be different. But it would be such a major turn to see Turkey recognizing the Genocide, that it appears that only romantics see it happening anytime soon. Turkey, in spite of Mustafa Kemal brave efforts remains a very insecure society. Recognizing the Genocide would only increase that feeling. Or else would help cleansing an otherwise disfunctional and highly violent society. [ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ] [ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted November 19, 2001 Report Share Posted November 19, 2001 I totaly agree with you Boghos, it is very hard to me to imagine that the Turks will ever accept the event. Not only this, it angers me more when the term "massacres" is even not recognised, now imagine genocide. In Turkish publications or newspapers, it is not rare to se "so-called massacres". As for the insecurity, I believe that Kemalists have played a lots on this. The modernisation has been made in a very speedy way that even now Turks are not accostumated to that. So mentioning Ataturk, I think he is one of the ellements of this insecurity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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