Circassian about evidence.

[Guest Fadi]

I may see if you are honest now. You say that no one should be judged without evidence, I agree with this.

 

But you know like me that I provided hundreds of evidences to you in the past, you just called them forged lies, when I proposed you to verify them by yourself. You ask for evidences, then i ask for honesty.

 

Now lets talk about evidence, the example I gave so many time, lets give it again.

 

You have 3 killers, that killed persons, then you have their closest friends, you have the arm of the crime.

 

Lets call these killers A, B and C and the D's their closest friends

 

Mr. A, kill a person with a gun, then in the course you have him stating that he never knew in his life what a gun was, and didn't knew that a gun could kill, having no other prove from the accusation he is relieced.

 

The same person after has the knowledge that shuting with a gun could kill, he now take a gun and shut on peoples. The first one for what he was relieced could be called an accident, but when he still continue with the gun, this become a premedited act.

 

Lets now take this logic and pout it in the case of the Armenian genocide. The first wave of deportations in the Syrian desert, we may say that the Ottoman didn,t knew that sending them all in the desert without water and food would kill the majority of them, then you have a reporst to the Djmal bureau that the majority of the first sent in the desert were dying, then just days after the government extend the deportation to 5 times more peoples and finaly the majority of the Armenians in Ottoman, in a place were they know that the majority would die, since they sent 150,000 in the first wave and 120,000 of them died. Can we say that the first action may be an accident non premedited ? Can we say the first way of deportation hight rate dead was not premedited and the government didn't knew that the majority of them would die ? Maybe, but now the government know it, the first numbers direcly appear in Djemal bureau the Ottoman war intelligencia center, then 2 days after the same technic is applied to 5 times more Armenians, and finally to the rest of them waiting months, and when you have in the same time the German war office in ottoman(that I already posted you an example of archive) stat that they asked the Ottoman to fead the Armenians send because they were dying, and the Ottoman refused. In the same time, you have the Red Cross blocked, and the Ottoman reply by blocking food and water: "We wish nothing to be don that could prolong their lives". The Ottoman knowing after the first wave of deporties that the majority were dying, and died, after a kind of essay with around 150,000 (this starting in March 2, 1915(present in the own Turkish ministry of foreign affair archives), waiting in the middle of Mai, from these numbers some tens of thousands were left alive, the Ottoman first before the first numbers arriving in Djmal bureau give another order, then days after the number arrived another one. When these reports were stating from the deported praticly non were left alive(we know from these after the reliece of German secret reports about the deportation and the blockage of food and water from Ottoman).

 

So now I ask you, you have reports saying the majority were dying, the Turkish military after war tribunal give that at very least(they pout as the very least, must remark) 66 % of the entire Armenian population has been deported, and that the majority of them died. You have the Djmal War intelligencia official statistics, that from 1915 and the end of 1917, 800,000 Armenians have been killed, not perished but killed, without mentioning about the perished in the desert. We have later for the non compleat Russian official statistic of Kemalist enterence that after 1918, in the period of Armenian "republic" 198,000 Armenians perished, and stat that the statistics were non compleated.

 

Now I ask you, how come you have the official military war intelligencia bureau, reliece a number of 800,000 Armenian killed, just after the period of 1917, if these murders were not performed by the government ? Is this make any sens to you ? You can not say I forge these documents I already posted them all with their references in the past, non of them were Armenian, so in no way you could call them Armenian propaganda, the number of Djmal bureau were also from Turkish newspapers, with the review number of the newspapers in question, and more the confirmation of this by Ataturk giving the same number to Harbort, that 800,000 Armenians have been killed.

 

Now I want that you explain me now, how come the Military war intelligencia bureau, the center of all the military command arriving direcly in Djmal office, give the numbers of how many Armenians have been killed just after the first wave of the genocide ? Of these killings were not preformed by the government, so how come the Central bureau didn't took months of investigations after the war, but relieced the numbers that were published months later in newspapers. The only logical answer to this, is that the order of killings were all counted. Like "Go kill the 2000 Armenians in this villages, and report me about it" all collected in cipher telegrams and destroyed, like admited during the Turkish military after war tribunal.

 

Now lets continue, this is not all, you ask for admitions of course. Well I gave you a direct one from Halil own memoire that I told you is even not found in the case of the Holocaust. When Halil stat direcly that he tried to wipe out the Armenians to the last individual. Halil was the Suprem General in the East, like I remarked so many times, the oncle of the War minister.

 

Now lets continue with the A, B, C and D

 

D the friend of A, B, C announce before the killings, that something will happen that was never seen before, a kind of killing, and annouce to others to not do something, because this something is waited by A, B, C in order that they hide what they prepared in this something. Then others don,t listen they do this something, like predicted the things announced really happen like predicted, lets me remind you that D the closest friends have predicted this, because A, B, C stated some of these plans to their friend D. Then the crime happen, A start to shout on peoples, he never used a gun before, he don,t know if really a gun kill, he try then see the result, then he see it and give the order to the 2 others, B and C to use a gun because it is the best tool they found, then the two others start to shut, they still continue continue and continue and finaly there is some that didn't died, D ask A, B, C to lets doctors help the ones that didn't die, A, B, C refuse take the gun and shut at the person left. Now after this you have A, B that escape and C is arrested, D admit that A, B, C were the killers, A that is arrested admit he was the killer and stat without a remorse with a smile that he tried to kill everyone of the victimes that he killed, and that his other friends were in the plot. What you conclude ? Circassian ?

 

Then you have other things, now we return in the case of the Armenians, we have doctors in the Red Cressent stating that other doctors used morphins injected in Armenians, to kill them and after drowned them in mass in lakes. Will doctors intellectuals supposed to save laves do this without having recieved any orders ?

 

The biggest proof of premeditation is the analogy presented as this.

 

"When a person use a tool that he never saw before and use it, the first victime can be seen as an accident, when this person know now that this tool kill he continue, this become a premedited action, since he absolutly know that the usage of the tool will kill."

 

We have the proves that no any juridistic respecfull tribunal will reject. Like martin said, we had the circonstances all what needed for a genocide, then we have orders, orders to send an entire population in the desert, when resulting the majority died, they still continued untill there is praticly no Armenian left. Then took away the orphans injected thousands with morphins drown them, distribute the rest.

 

To finish this is the most important question to answer.

 

What prove the Jews have more then the Armenians to prove the Holocaust existance ?

[Guest]

To Domino and the other Armenians here: Do not waste your time trying to convince Turks that their Grandparents or Great Grandparents did the evil things that they did. They will never believe it. They do not want to believe it. Convince the rest of the world instead. Unlike WWII where the allies made the German people go to the concentration camps and see what had happened. It is too late to do that to the Turks. They have covered up all the evidence by now. Except us, the living survivors. We know our family history. They can never take that from us. We will never forget what they did to our ancestors and homeland. We must educate the world about Turkey. Both past and present since she continues to commit great crimes against humanity every day.

She must be held accountable for her actions by the world community. She must be stopped!

[Guest]

Looks like the thieves are finally leaving

 

Fields of despair in Turkey

Farmers fleeing to cities because of indebtedness

 

By Molly Moore

The Washington Post

May 20, 2001

 

CALLI, Turkey -- For sale: quaint Turkish village, 112 baked mud

homes, 24,000 acres farmland, one mosque, one schoolhouse, one

disappearing way of life, $1.2 million. Cash only.

 

In Turkey's northeastern Anatolian plateau, this is what the farmers'

plight has come to. They are hounded by debtors they cannot pay.

Their tractors are idle because few owners can afford fuel. Their

wheat fields are ablaze with yellow flowering weeds for lack of

money to purchase herbicides.

 

Now, for the first time in the quarter-century history of the state

Agriculture Credit Cooperative, local farmers are receiving warning

notices: Pay up or the state will take your land, your tractor,

your belongings, or perhaps send you to prison.

 

After decades in which a beneficent government routinely forgave

debts and ladled out subsidies, Calli and hundreds of other farm

hamlets are struggling with Turkey's new get-tough efforts to salvage

a collapsing economy and appease international moneylenders.

 

"We have to make our voices heard," said Ahmet Erdogan, 52, a member

of the village's elected council, which hatched the desperate

publicity stunt of putting Calli and 10 other nearby villages up

for sale.

 

There have been no takers.

 

"The state is like a big hammer banging on us. The situation is

so hard for everyone. We have people who haven't had a vegetable

in their kitchen for six months."

 

In the last half-dozen years, more than one-third of Calli's families

have locked their doors and deserted their farms for the cities, a

trend that is emptying villages nationwide. In less than half a

century, Turkey's population has flip-flopped, from three-quarters

rural to three-quarters urban, making it one of the world's most

rapidly urbanizing nations.

 

The story of Calli exemplifies the kind of government policies that

helped push Turkey into the financial abyss that threatens its

economic, political and social stability. It also demonstrates

vividly why it will be so difficult for this strategic U.S. and

NATO ally to impose the reforms considered critical to its survival

as a reliable political partner and credible player in the global

marketplace.

 

For 16 years, the government has bailed out farmers with five

separate amnesty programs. As a result, the single largest debtor

of the Agriculture Credit Cooperative that serves Calli and surrounding

villages is the government itself, which owes the association nearly

$30 million for the debt it has forgiven member farmers.

 

In an effort to pull Turkey out of its quagmire of debt--it extends

across every sector of the

economy, from small businesses to industrial

giants--the International Monetary Fund recently approved a $10

billion loan package, demanding in return that Turkey reform its

antiquated financial system. The IMF argues that short-term pain

to farmers and others is necessary to restore faith in the economy,

both at home and in the international marketplace.

 

"The era of cheap populism has ended in Turkey," new Economic

Minister Kemal Dervis recently told Cabinet colleagues. "We should

all tighten our belts. . . . We can't dynamite our future to save

today."

 

But many top ministers are balking under political pressure from

desperate constituencies.

 

One of the most vociferous has been Agriculture Minister Husnu Yusuf

Gokalp, who argued that 616,000 Turkish farmers are in debt so deep

they can never hope to pay and that--once again--the government

owes them help.

 

The realities between tough reform and easy relief play out every

day on the 800 acres of tired soil where Mahmut Cakir grows wheat,

like his father and his grandfather before him.

 

Cakir, 27, lives in a small house with his wife, infant daughter,

toddler son, widowed mother and dog. His life is ruled by debts:

 

Debt to the farm credit association he has no hope of repaying

because the $3,400 loan he took out four years ago to buy a

seed-planting machine and 53 gallons of diesel fuel has ballooned,

with skyrocketing interest and a devalued currency, into a $9,000

debt.

 

Debts of $6,000 to two feed suppliers he can't repay because the

35 cattle he spent his life savings on last year died.

 

Debt to the fertilizer man he can't pay because last year's wheat

crop was so bad he couldn't sell a single pound.

 

This year, neither the fertilizer man nor the herbicide man nor the

fuel man will give him credit to buy the supplies he needs to produce

a decent harvest by September.

 

So Cakir spends his days fending off creditors, many of whom are

scarcely better off.

 

"A lot of people leave this village and move to the city, where

they try to get themselves lost because of all their debt," Cakir

said. "I'm very closse to that point. There's nothing I can give

anymore. If it comes to that point, I'll pack my family up, take

my children, change my address and try to get lost somewhere too."

 

He believes he has good reason to hide. "The most the state can do

is take my land," he said. "I'm not afraid of that. I don't mind

going to prison."

 

It's the creditors he worries about. "I'm hearing they are calling

their mafias on me, I'm afraid they'll shoot me. I get calls."

[Guest]

EdwardK

 

You just declared all of turkish farmers to be thieves.

Has it ever occur to you that you are stereotyping ?

[Guest Fadi]

Circassian why you do not answer my post ? Have you found a way to escape it by backing yourself up, by the post of Edward ?

[Guest]

Domino

Apoligize for calling me a racist first.