A little about the Andonians...

[Guest Fadi]

... This was an answer to a denialist by the name of Nick... I just guessed that this subject may interest some, so I decided to post it here as well.

 

"... First of all, the denialists references(denialists such as yourself) odten refer to the English translation of the Andonians that are different then the French translation, that is providen by Yves Ternon work conserning denialists that I have a copy, it covers a chapter specifically conserning the Andonians. The English version is worthless, and you can not use it to show their rediculity, since they are imperfect translations, the French ones have been directly translated from its Ottoman Turkish version.

 

Now, like I said you forced me to start with them...

 

There is only one work that is the bases of the denialists arguments that has been later translated into English and it is the work of Orel and Yuca "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin Icyuzu" Ankara, 1983

 

Dadrian has proved this work is worthless by covering the 5 allegations that these two diplomats brings to prove that the Andonians are forgeries...

 

And do you know what proves that the Andonians are authentics ? Specifically its mistakes found in other Ottoman documents.

 

First allegation is the fact that the papers used of these documents looked like the ones used for calligraphy lessons in French schools... and do you know how they came to the conclusion ? The orginal have not been studied by these two diplomats they came to that conclusion basing themselves on the spacing of the lignes standarts in the French system.

 

Here is the point Nick, this proves that the Andonians were in fact authentic, because none other then Turkish high officials would know that Talaat during wartime was using ordinary paper because of the paper crises in Ottoman, exporting papers from Germany, that was using French lign specing system... and Talaat specifically used such papers.

 

Ahmed Resit [Rey] in his work "Gorduklerim-Yaptiklarim", (1890-1922), Istanbul,

1945, p.117 explain that Talaat used such specific papers.

 

How Andonian could know this Nick ?

 

The second argument by the two diplomats are not proof itself, because they are used in a way, that they do not reject the authenticity of the Andonians... These diplomats question the fact that Naim has kept these documents, and it was not possible that telegrams were kept for more then 3 years before destroying them.

 

But again, here the two diplomats show the ignorence of Ottoman documents classifications... yes it was true that in Istanbul for example orders to destroy the documents have been given and later in the entire Ottoman itself, and I gave you in one of my above post examples of such orders, but it was not really the case for Allepo for that time, that was not fearing outside intervention and collection of documents, and Aleppo was one of the only places for that period, that the Documents were not classed to be protected, and here again Andonian could not have known this, the German Consul Walter Rossler, that believe that these documents could be authentic recognise that "entirely granted for as far as I knew the Turks [in Aleppo]never catalogued and attached (nie geheftet) their documents." The Daily Telegraph reported: ""on the lightening advance of Allenby's forces...time was lacking for so complete an obliteration of the tragic archives while subordinates, who remained behind, sometimes retained possession of compromising documents..." The period that Andonians say having taken these documents makes a lots of sens, as well as the fact that he took them from somehwere that it was specifically one of the only places that documents important such as this could not have been destroied.

 

Then our 2 Turkish diplomat palls alleges by refering to the February 18 and March 25 letters, that the errors made in them could not have been made by a Turk, but again, they are wrong. These are orders letters, handwrittings, they are not publications to be read by a mass, our 2 dimplomats mesures for example the letter b etc... to show us that it could only have been made by someone that could not master the Ottoman script, but what they do not point, is that a hand writting to give an order is not a paper to be corrected, or a litherary work for mass consuption.

 

Ahmed Mithad the well known Turkish language specialist as well as writer recognised the irregularities of the Turkish language "The Ottoman language is such a rotten structure that which-ever part is touched, falls down... We have to give up making repairs."

 

The Martial Court itself had to rewrite an entire sentence from an official Ottoman document because "very ineptly used Turkish." A Turkish Interior Minister also denounced

as "bad" (bozuk) the Turkish language of a 1912 Young Turk Congress.

 

A Turkish Historian also recognise that Talaat Turkish writing was "bad" Turkish, refering to his telegrams, pointed out in "Izahli Osmanli Tarihi

Kronolojisi", Istanbul. 1961, I.H. Danismend

 

Could Andonians have known that Talaah had bad Turkish ? So again, like I said the mistakes found in the Andonians only prove its authenticity.

 

The datation now, Dadrian give examples of the same kind of mistakes in Ottoman documents recognised as authentic by Turkey.

 

To finish, Andonian was a Journalist writer, mastering Armenian as well as Ottoman Turkish, his Ottoman Turkish, living in that time, was certainly better then Orel and his friend pseudo Ottoman Turkish knoweldge... if he would have wanted to forge documents, these little mistakes easy to correct would have not been done... like using different papers for many of the telegrams(this was a known Talat mistake), datation mistakes, someone that would want to forge documents, would not for example for some documents have the correct datation and not for others, in order to have correct datation, one should know Higir Calender, if he would know it, why making mistakes for some datations and not others ? When you forge, you try to be the most credible possible, and when you have a knowledge of Ottoman Turkish and as Journalist the Hegir datation, and the capability to use the same kind of paper for all the documents, then why making everything possible in order that you left arguments for the opposition party ? Is that make any sens ? I first believe the Andonians were fakes, but not after my study of it, many things do not make any sens.

 

And again, I do not take any credit for this Nick, Dadrian research is what I used as first source, and I have no problem admiting it, he sure is the best searcher on the field of Holocaust and genocide study.

 

Regards for you."