What do you think about Madrid proposals?

[Armat]

Today's Zaman

27 January 2010, Wednesday

 

The presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan have agreed on a preamble

to an updated version of the 2007 Madrid document, which includes

the latest changes to the settlement's basic principles concerning

the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute.

 

Armenian President Serzh Sarksyan and Azerbaijani President Ilham

Aliyev were hosted by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in the

Krasnaya Polyana ski resort near Sochi on Monday for talks on the

Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, a territorial dispute between Baku and

Yerevan.

 

With mediation by Medvedev, Sarksyan and Aliyev reached a "general

understanding on the preamble" that would precede the main body

of an agreement on the basic principles of the settlement to the

Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov

was quoted as saying by Russian media following the meeting.

 

"There is a general understanding on the preamble of the document,"

Lavrov said, as quoted in media reports. He noted that the preamble

revised and updated the Madrid principles of the Minsk Group of the

Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

 

The Madrid principles envisage a stage-by-stage resolution of the

Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict that should start with the gradual

liberation of parts of Azerbaijan bordering Nagorno-Karabakh that

were partly or fully occupied by Armenian forces in Nagorno-Karabakh

during the 1991-94 war. In return, Nagorno-Karabakh should retain a

corridor to Armenia and be able to determine its final status in a

future referendum.

 

Although some parts of the document have yet to be harmonized, "the

sides will prepare their concrete proposals, their concrete wording,

which will be worked into the text," Lavrov said.

 

"We are sure that this will help the co-chairs in their future work,"

he said, referring to the three co-chairs of the Minsk Group --

France, Russia and the United States -- which have striven to resolve

the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict for more than 17 years.

 

"The presidents have agreed to continue it [the work]," Lavrov said.

 

The considerably positive sign from the Sochi meeting is expected

to be welcomed by Ankara, which hopes that concrete progress in the

Nagorno-Karabakh dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan will enable

Turkey to pass a so-called threshold to move ahead in its ongoing

efforts to normalize ties with its estranged neighbor Armenia.

[Armat]

Oskanian view which I think is Armenia's view

http://www.civilitasfoundation.org/cf/interviews/199-vartan-oskanian-speaks-on-madrid-principles.html

 

He really likes it however Azeris view same proposals dramatically different.

The essence of the Madrid proposals is that the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan should be secured and the fate of any ethnic minority should be determined within the territorial integrity. This practice is used by many countries. There are countries where hundreds of thousands, millions of ethnic minorities live and their fate is determined within these countries. Our neighbour, the Russian Federation, is one example. How many ethnic minorities live there? All of them have determined their fates. But according to the Armenian concept, there should be 20-30 countries in the territory of Russia. There are thousands and millions of ethnic minorities in European countries.

 

Should Armenia change the world’s order with its new concept now? Azerbaijan’s position is that its territory should be liberated phase-by-phase. In the first phase, five or seven regions should be liberated, then the status of the corridor between the Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan and Armenia should be determined and then other issues should be solved. The main issue is that there should be a transition period after these phases and the return of refugees and displaced persons to their homeland. Within a certain period, the discussions should be started on the status of Nagorno-Karabakh to find a form to determine its status within the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. The Madrid proposals have kept their essence with maybe a short sentence changed in the updated version.

http://www.news.az/articles/4865

 

Weird....Azeris think territorial integrity and present Armenian gov thinks what? Give up NK? I am confused

 

more on Azeri view

Azerbaijan always says that it is ready to give the highest status to Nagorno-Karabakh. Could Azerbaijan become a federal state after the final status of Nagorno-Karabakh has been determined?

 

No, it couldn't. There are no grounds for it. Azerbaijan is a unitary state and the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic exists within this framework. There was also the Nagorno Karabakh Autonomous Province. Now it's a question of determining status within the framework of vertical relations with Azerbaijan’s central government. Within this framework any ethnic minority can achieve self-determination. What is self-determination? The national minority may have the right to study in the mother tongue, develop culture, customs and traditions.

 

There are hundreds of models in the world in this regard and one of them could be used. One of the best models is, as I have already said, the Russian Federation. Which one we agree upon will be determined during the negotiating process. This will be the final stage in the coordination of the Madrid principles.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Armat

[Harut]

NKR has been a de facto independent state (or at minimum a province of yerevan for almost 2 decades now)... any decision that falls short of this will be a defeat for the armenian side, no matter how you look at it (this time with no moral victory either)... if armenians settle for this with the excuse that "we had no choice in the decision", then they have to be open to accept all the consequences that come with being the loser in the struggle...

[Armat]

NKR has been a de facto independent state (or at minimum a province of yerevan for almost 2 decades now)... any decision that falls short of this will be a defeat for the armenian side, no matter how you look at it (this time with no moral victory either)... if armenians settle for this with the excuse that "we had no choice in the decision", then they have to be open to accept all the consequences that come with being the loser in the struggle...

The very fact we are negotiating NK status is in itself a losing game.I may be a minority but Madrid principles are not good at all for Armenians.Once Azeris get everything they want then what's stopping them declaring NK part of Azerbaijan.They are negotiating from that "territorial integrity" perspective.

Present situation is not permanent hence the negotiations.

I just hope we don't experience 1921 all over again losing another Armenian land to furks.

[Armat]

Come on guys where is everyone? Once this place was so active....

Armenia wants a guarantee for Nagornyy Karabakh in advance before

agreeing to the liberation of the adjacent districts. It is well-known

that there have been discussions more than once over the conduct of

the referendum in five or 10 years. However, it would be an

inescapable capitulation for official Baku to agree to this time

frame.

 

Consequently, it is assumed that Azerbaijan has accepted the peace

proposal, knowing that it would be turned down by Armenia in order to

get upper hand in diplomacy as well as prevent external pressure it

has come under over the Karabakh conflict. Theoretically, even if

Armenia agrees to the option in question, there are opportunities to

delay the referendum for dozens of years.

 

Above is a quote from Baku article and it shows how Azeris excepting Madrid P. are misleading and they have no interest ever to allow NK freedom since they negotiate from point of view of "territorial integrity of Azerbaijan"

Armenia should prepare for war.These A-holes will be A=holes.

[Arpa]

Yes, dear Armat. Madrid, like in “մատիտ/matit/pencil“** “matik”!

** What is written in “Madrid/matit” can be erased with a simple stroke of a “matsik/rubber eraser/սրբիչ” **

http://www.fotosearch.com/bigcomp.asp?path=CRT/CRT001/78362-324mv.jpg

** Սուրբ, սրբել, to erase, to sanctify, as in, Սրբուհի Մարիամ Մայր Աստուծոյ/Ave Maria, Forma Divina/Forma Vergina ** Mary is a total another subject. Սրբագրել as in “rewrite”"sanctify" in an “holy scripture”?

** Consider all the Armenian girls named Vergine/Վերգինէ Is it Verjin վերջին (last) or arajin/Արաջին(first)?

Edited March 28, 2010 by Arpa