Reputation

[Zartonk]

Arpa mentions in the 'Trojan' thread:

 

Trust a snake before a Jew, a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian.

 

The above quote is allegedly attributed to none other than Mr. George Orwell.

 

 

As you may well know, another pleasant blow dealt our way comes from our big brother bear up north:

 

"Boil 7 Russians, get a Jew. Boil 7 Jews, get an Armenian." (Russian saying)

 

 

 

From the looks of it thus far, our 'public image' is one of cunning opportunism and manipulative capacity, not so different from the "forever-scapegoated" Jews. (I've also talked about this notion in the thread about Armenians in foreign literature.) I'm keenly interested in knowing the general reaction and the pervading opinion about this seemingly persistent stereotype. On the other hand, though, stereotypes are fallible and exaggerated by their very nature, so to what extent is it xenophobia and prejudice? But as the saying goes "Մինչ չլինի բան,չեն ասի բաներ/Minch chlini ban, ches asi baner/Unless there is something, people won't say some things", so apart from intolerance, what does it MEAN to get called "serpentine"?

 

 

The following are a few more expressions. Do also note the recurrence of the Greeks alongside the other two (not minding the "Osmanli" and Turkish variations -and how are they different?-):

 

 

One Jew can cheat ten Greeks; one Greek ten Jews; and one Armenian ten Greeks.

German saying

 

It takes three Jews to cheat a Greek, three Greeks to cheat a Syrian, and three Syrians to cheat an Armenian.

Levantine saying

He waddles like an Armenian bride.

Osmanli saying

The prince with the Armenian is not distinguishable.

Osmanli saying

 

If you can make a good bargain with an Armenian, you can make a good bargain with the devil.

Persian saying

 

God made serpents and rabbits and Armenians.

Turkish saying

Edited December 5, 2009 by Zartonk

[Zartonk]

The above quote is allegedly attributed to none other than Mr. George Orwell.

 

Allow me to correct. This is definitely found in Orwell. See it here

 

(Down and Out in Paris and London, 1933, CHAPTER XIII)

 

"...There were thieves among the staff, and if you left money in your coat pockets it was generally taken. The doorkeeper, who paid our wages and searched us for stolen food, was the greatest thief in the hotel. Out of my five hundred francs a month, this man actually managed to cheat me of a hundred and fourteen francs in six weeks. I had asked to be paid daily, so the doorkeeper paid me sixteen francs each evening, and, by not paying for Sundays (for which of course payment was due), pocketed sixty-four francs. Also, I sometimes worked on a Sunday, for which, though I did not know it, I was entitled to an extra twenty-five francs. The doorkeeper never paid me this either, and so made away with another seventy-five francs. I only realized during my last week that I was being cheated, and, as I could prove nothing, only twenty-five francs were refunded. The doorkeeper played similar tricks on any employee who was fool enough to be taken in. He called himself a Greek, but in reality he was an Armenian. After knowing him I saw the force of the proverb ‘Trust a snake before a Jew and a Jew before a Greek, but don’t trust an Armenian.’"

[Yervant1]

Why did we fail miserably throughout our history, if we are this clever and cunning. I just don't get it.

[Z'areh]

Two years ago, on a working trip to France I met a woman who was working on the same project, she is in her early sixties. One evening as we were on a break having coffee together she said she has a funny story to tell me, that there is a common saying in French, as told by her father, that says "never ever trust an Armenian". I told her that I didn't find anything funny in that saying. She said "Oh common, it's only a joke", Then she said that as far as she knew her father never met an Armenian. I asked her, now that she has met an Armenian if she trusts me. She said "of course...with one eye open" she thought that was very funny. I was shocked! I was amazed to see a supposedly highly educated French person to be so ignorant and backward.

[Johannes]

Այս ասացուածքները հնարելու իրաւունք ունին, քանի որ եւրոպացիք, հայի վաճառական տեսակին հանդիպեր են՝ անոնք, որ արեւելքի եւ արեւմուտքի առեւտուրը իրենց ձեռքին բռնած էին: Հարկաւ՝ սովորական մարդիկ պիտի չի ըլլային:

Սովորական, հասարակ հայի չեն հանդիպած, որոնք մեծամասնութիւնն են:

 

 

[Yervant1]

Mardu m@ ajqe yelle qan de anun@, shat shidak khosq e.

[Arpa]

All that remains now is Live up to the "reputation". i.e outfox the wolf.

[Zartonk]

Two years ago, on a working trip to France I met a woman who was working on the same project, she is in her early sixties. One evening as we were on a break having coffee together she said she has a funny story to tell me, that there is a common saying in French, as told by her father, that says "never ever trust an Armenian". I told her that I didn't find anything funny in that saying. She said "Oh common, it's only a joke", Then she said that as far as she knew her father never met an Armenian. I asked her, now that she has met an Armenian if she trusts me. She said "of course...with one eye open" she thought that was very funny. I was shocked! I was amazed to see a supposedly highly educated French person to be so ignorant and backward.

 

Bullseye Zareh. First it's humor, then a label.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Zartonk

[Zartonk]

Այս ասացուածքները հնարելու իրաւունք ունին, քանի որ եւրոպացիք, հայի վաճառական տեսակին հանդիպեր են՝ անոնք, որ արեւելքի եւ արեւմուտքի առեւտուրը իրենց ձեռքին բռնած էին: Հարկաւ՝ սովորական մարդիկ պիտի չի ըլլային:

Սովորական, հասարակ հայի չեն հանդիպած, որոնք մեծամասնութիւնն են:

 

Մի խոսքով, Րաֆֆու Հայրենիք չունեցուղ վաճառականներ...

Edited December 5, 2009 by Zartonk

[Zartonk]

Who are we cunning after all? Our own? Our kin? The world?

[Yervant1]

Who are we cunning after all? Our own? Our kin? The world?

Zartonk Jan, let Europe look in the mirror before labeling others, to see their deeds of colonialism. They plundered and raped tons of countries out of their wealth and dignity. Before they tell the world not to trust an Armenian, let us ask the world if they trust the word of the European.

 

How many times they promised the Armenians support and then turned their backs on us. To me they are the liars and the thiefs. God knows how much of Armenian wealth went to these so called civilised barbarians and thieves.

[Zartonk]

Zartonk Jan, let Europe look in the mirror before labeling others, to see their deeds of colonialism. They plundered and raped tons of countries out of their wealth and dignity. Before they tell the world not to trust an Armenian, let us ask the world if they trust the word of the European.

 

How many times they promised the Armenians support and then turned their backs on us. To me they are the liars and the thiefs. God knows how much of Armenian wealth went to these so called civilised barbarians and thieves.

 

But OF COURSE Yervant jan. My sentiment at this point is how much of our "advantageous intelligence" will we be directing TOWARDS OUR 'collective' good, versus just individual progress? Since it is obviously foolish to think that others are interested in anything BUT their own immediate benefit, how are we to use these "abilities" to guarantee further survival?

 

I know I muse tautologically, but, as a an 'ethnos', should one not ultimately be interested in saving one's own skin?

Edited December 6, 2009 by Zartonk

[Yervant1]

But OFF COURSE Yervant jan. My sentiment at this point is how much of our "advantageous intelligence" will we be directing TOWARDS OUR 'collective' good, versus just individual progress? Since it is obviously foolish to think that others are interested in anything BUT their own immediate benefit, how are we to use these "abilities" to guarantee further survival?

 

I know I muse tautologically, but, as a an 'ethnos', should one not ultimately be interested in saving one's own skin?

Zartonk Jan yes you do make valid points that we do look after our own personal benefits rather than the collective one, but such is the case with others as well. Therefore this is a human issue rather than a race or ethnic. My first remark was if we are very cunning, how come we didn't produce political savvy politicians? Not even few of them.

 

Armenians are very hard working people in general and that is why they succeed and not because they are cunning. Of course I'm talking in generality and not about few bad apples that every race has it.

[Zartonk]

Right you are again. It's very much "human nature"... But as you go on to say, preceding this image of self-interest and corruption, the stereotype was one of honest hard work. And off course it is the bad apples who rot the whole orchard.

 

Chgitem bayts ardarutyunov hishvel@ mi ban...hima???

[Arpa]

Right you are again. It's very much "human nature"...

-----

And off course it is the bad apples who rot the whole orchard.

 

Chgitem bayts ardarutyunov hishvel@ mi ban...hima???

Dear Zartonk, we love you.

The pharse is "OF course", one F. "OFF" means out of, and put together with "course" it means "out of the way"/lost directeion, զարտուղի. While "of course" in fact means "from, out of necessity".

Here is a few definitions of "off"

off1 definition off (ôf, äf)

1.so as to be or keep away, at a distance, to a side, etc. to move off, to ward off

2.so as to be measured, divided, etc. to pace off, to mark off

3.so as to be no longer on, attached, united, covering, in contact, etc. take off your hat, the paint wore off..

Is it like saying "ԱՄԱՆ ՕՖՖ", "get OFF my back/հտեւիցս ՕՖՖ եղիր"?

Edited December 6, 2009 by Arpa
Allow me to reverse time...

[Zartonk]

You've called me out again! Spellcheck and grammatical correction aren't my best when speed-typing. Thank you

[Arpa]

You've called me out again! Spellcheck and grammatical correction aren't my best when speed-typing. Thank you

Yes Zartonk,I caught you "OFF GUARD". Shame on me/ամօթ ինձ

I'm sure you forgive. This is a very common happening, specially when we consider that "of" is often pronounced as "av" like in "speakig of" while in the case of "of course" it does sound like "off". I also remember when some were using the phrase "KNIT picking" , while it is "NIT picking" as in picking the eggs of lice/ոջիլի ձու/անիծ պոկել:

Do the English "nit/nits" have anyting to do with Armenian "անիծ"?

Edited December 6, 2009 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

Perhaps, OF course its possible

 

OՖՖՖ My FOB (Fresh Off the Boat) will have to be under stricter check