A M E R I C A - U N D E R - A T T A C K

[MosJan]

you can find it at this link

L I N K

[Juggernaut]

Many innocents died in that attack, but it was a good wake up call to the policies conducted by the US around the world. The majority of the worlds population hates the USA and if I was a Palestinian, Iraqi, Afgani or a dozen other nationalities I would be celebrating too.

[MJ]

From all I can gather you are already celebrating.

[gamavor]

Yes 76 daregan yem!

[gamavor]

Actually, anong vor bedke urahanan h'rianernen!

[Juggernaut]

quote

From all I can gather you are already celebrating.

 

Yes, I did celebrate for like 15 minutes the morning I turned the TV on and saw the WTC collapsing. I initially thought the attack had been carried out at night (how else could the bombers bring so much explosives into the building), hence casualties would be minimal. But when I realised that they flew planes into the buildings and moreover it took place at like 8:30am, then I stopped celebrating and indeed am now sad because the possibility of economic consequences and the fact that many more are going to die for the US to extract its revenge.

[Juggernaut]

quote

Actually, anong vor bedke urahanan h'rianernen!

 

Yes, they have gained the most from that attack.

[edward demian]

I was surfing the Hye forum some time back and I ran accross a lenghty article quoting an Egiptian newpaper that categorically pointed to Azerbaijian as a major training center for Ben Laden's terorists. In a newspaper (Asbarez) the Armenian Official news agency named several villages north of Karabagh that had been converted to Chechen terrorist training grounds. The former Armenian villages, previously emptied of their Armenian population had been resettled by Chechens.

We need to get more documentation and uncover Azerbaijians role in the international terrorist network. I have two documentaries, Karabagh's wounds I & II. In a segment, they claim that several hundred Afghani fighters were fighting with the Azery army. Stacks of ID's and personnal letters belonging to Afghani fighters were shown. These had been dead or captured fighters. And that was nearly ten years ago.

The American people need to know. if anyone can help me find that article, I will submit it to the authorities and the news agencies.

[alpha]

Recently many news sources, referring to government officials’ statements, discuss a lot about the WAR or WORLD WAR III. Any reasonable person knows that for a major World War, two opposing sides have to be militarily in equal standing. What country is US going to war with. Afghanistan? World War III between Afghanistan and US. It just makes me laugh. But Afghanistan did not do anything. It even condemned the attacks. There is not enough evidence to support the involvement of Afghani government in a terrorist attack. So even if US bombs this impoverished country, just like it bombed Yugoslavia, it becomes an aggressor. I thought they don’t support aggressors. Instead of looking at reasons that pushed these people to sacrifice themselves and take 5,000 lives with them, US officials close their eyes on demands of terrorists. Terror is a sign of weakness. It’s a last resort for people who feel powerless to confront a major power. So instead of bombing innocent civilians in Afghanistan, just like US did in Serbia, it should look at demands of these terrorists. What causes people to sacrifice themselves; obviously dissatisfaction from the US foreign policy in the Middle East. US unconditionally supports Israel, thus alienating Arabs and reinforcing the feelings of a perpetual victims amongst Palestinian Arabs. The bombing will turn into a PR campaign to satisfy the feeling of revenge by American public. It’s really sad that majority of people of a civilized country such as US, support the medieval notion, “blood for blood”. I thought we were more civilized, but apparently I was mistaken.

[MJ]

Alpha,

 

I have been following almost all the news channels over the last few days, reading USA Today and WSJ. I haven’t come across any serious insinuations of “World War III” by the media or the press – at least the mainstream one. As a matter of fact, I observe the mainstream US media being quite restrained on the subject.

 

All the insinuations by the mainstream media of declarations of war are made in a the sense of declaring war to the International Terrorism directed at its eradication.

 

However, I am surprised at your declarations that Afghanistan has not done anything. Even if we assume that Afghanistan has not directly participated in the organization of the acts of terrorism, evidently it has harbored and accommodated most vicious terrorist organizations and has provided them with the freedom to set training camps.

 

Additionally, anyone who is a little bit familiar with the Middle Eastern/Pakistani/Indian/Afghani cultures, would know that their declarations of their nonparticipation in the acts of incrementing character do not deserve much credit – have heard about Eastern “Shoghokortutiun?”

 

So far, the US government has not given any indications that it is going to bomb Afghanistan or how is it going to respond. From all the accounts available, it is evident that those in charge have a very sober understanding of the problem, its complexities, idiosyncrasies, etc. It has not given any indications of being driven by the principle of “eye for eye,” but has pledged to work along the lines of the eradication of terrorism wherever it may be. Any country sponsoring or harboring terrorists should be rightfully considered as terrorist state and face the consequences.

 

As far as the bombing of the civilians and the civilian objects of Yugoslavia are concerned, I share your resentment, and I have expressed my resentment at the time quite vociferously. Not because of the innocence of Yugoslavia, which I think has committed acts constituting crimes against humanity, but because of the acts of NATO itself have constituted war crimes. However, I would like to add that by the admission of the NATO countries, the objects being bombed have been voted on unilaterally by all the countries of NATO. The only country which has expressed slight discomfort with it has been Greece. Therefore, blaming the Yugoslavian bombings just on the US is unfair, I think. I would be very much for inviting the leftist liberal whinnies of the Vietnam war (such us the previous president of the US) along with General Wesley Clark and the European leaders to stand criminal charges.

 

As far as the demands of the terrorists in the latest action are concerned, while taking 5000 innocent lives, they didn’t even advance any demands. Their acts were not simple acts of terrorism, and the signature was not one of terrorism, but rather of war. The war has been declared not by the US but to the Western Civilization – this is not an action of desperate people appealing to their last resort, but a evolution of a systematic process of purely ideological character to the next stage. For example, few months ago such attempt has been made against the EuroParliament – fortunately the German secret service has been successful in preventing the usage of serane (spelling ?) gas at the premises of that body. It is illusion to think that these actions are just directed at the US.

 

I also share your resentment of the level of the US support given to Israel against the Palestinians. However, it is well known that it is not unconditional. It is well known that both the senior Bush administration and the Clinton administration have been systematically exerting strong pressure on Israel. While not justifying the policies of Israel towards the Palestinian, and feeling sympathetic to the plea of the latest, it would be a gross misrepresentation of the picture of the region to lay all the blame on Israel. First of all, with the exception of Egypt and Jordan, I think, no other Arab state has recognized the right of Israel to exist in the region, moreover, they have pledged for the distraction of Israel. Additionally, anytime there is a perspective of a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians, Hamaz, Jihad, and others intensify their suiside bombings to blow any possible resolution up. Israel, while far not behaving like an angel itself, is subject to a daily terror. Under such circumstances, it is not even meaningful to define whose fault it is – it is the fault of both side.

 

While, obviously, there are angry voices in the US to bomb Afghanistan to the stone age[1], most of the people behave and express themselves in a very restrained and dignified manner, and expect their government to take only meaningful measures.

 

Therefore, I think you are indeed mistaken, only not in the sense you claim, but rather in your initial premise.

 

________

1 Note that Afghanistan is already in the stone age, and bombing it wouldn't even change on a qualitative level anything substantial there.

 

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[dragon]

I think on coming Tuesday US is going to bomb Afghanistan blindly, the day the tragedy took place, only to show his strenght and to satisfy American's anger.

 

Only after that we are going to see some actions against Terrorism.

 

May be I'm wrong, but as you all know, America is stressing on one thing: Ben Laden and Afghanistan, without having strong evidence.

 

At this moment US is after moral triumph, not millitary actions.

 

God bless innocent peoples

[MJ]

The US doesn't need to show its strength – its strength is well recognized.

 

The information coming from several foreign intelligence services, including those of European countries (France, for example), indicate that indeed Bin Laden has been behind these actions. The President of USA has called him only "Prime suspect," and has not alleged that it is established that Bin Laden is the organizer, and has pointed at the ongoing investigation. Additionally, Bin Laden has already been indicted by the US Courts for the actions against the US Embassies in Africa and the military vassel USS Cole.

 

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Paul bunyan]

I am not surprised that azeribaijan is responsible for training terrorists on the enemy occupied land of North Artsakh where they raped, murdered, and looted. Osama Bin Ladin has a Baku connection the USA needs to not become another England which has been lethally plagued by IRA bombers(never caught) for decades. bin ladin must be executed! no more assistance for azeribaijan!

[dragon]

Bin Laden is the prime suspect but not approved his authority yet. Tuesday is a big day for Americans to overcome the Tragedy.

 

America is great but not untouchable. This was the message and it is enough to calculate the greatness of US.

 

If US is going to punish the world, so he has to think about himself first.

[MJ]

Even without the latest actions Bin Laden's terrorist character has already been established.

 

Indeed America is not untouchable, nor is anybody else in the modern world. Nor the situation looks like a game. But I have full confedence in this administration's ability to make the best decisions available.

[Juggernaut]

Azerbaijan has a lot of oil, and I am sure even if evidence was produced that there are/were training camps there, the West wouldnt take any action, at the most political preassure. They know full well those camps would be there to train Chechens (and a few others) against Russia, and therefore are no threat to themselves. With time Azerbaijans 'oil card' will become increasingly important as the world starts running out of fossil fuels, the US would therefore refrain from taking any action that would transform Azerbaijan into another Iran or Iraq.

[dragon]

MJ:Even without the latest actions Bin Laden's terrorist character has already been established.

Indeed America is not untouchable, nor is anybody else in the modern world. Nor the situation looks like a game. But I have full confedence in this administration's ability to make the best decisions available.

 

 

Ladin is terrorist and must be a punished. No doubt. But he is the auther of this tragedy, is not approved yet. America must first execute the first and the responsibles of such action, then ''hashiv makre'' with the others.

 

I am with the world against terrorism and I need justice for this tragedy only, but for Armenian Genocide and other genocides too.

[alpha]

MJ, can you please explain me what do you mean by “The war has been declared not by the US but to the Western Civilization”. I thought war on Civilization could be declared only by cultural means. What is a war on Civilization anyways? US is supporting one of the warring factions in Middle East, by supplying weapons to Israel, so technically it’s a participant in that war. So you can’t claim that was has been declared against US. In regards to these horrifying terrorist actions I thought this was simply a terrorist action done by people who were disgruntled. In this case I thought it was US foreign policy. Just because the terrorists were Arabs shouldn’t make it a “War on Western Civilization”. Timothy McVeigh, was an American born and bred right wing terrorist who was influenced by extreme right wing and was dissatisfied by the actions of federal government that’s why he bombed Oklahoma City. Did we make such a big deal out of it. Was it considered a “War against liberals”? Of course not. I wouldn’t have been surprised if someone from Yugoslavia who has lost his whole family because of NATO bombing tied a bomb to him and blew himself up around White House. I am not a psychologist, but I think people who are capable to blow themselves up feel extremely powerless and see no point in their lives. They see the terrorism as the last resort. Don’t you think that people who have lost their families due to or because of US foreign policy can commit actions in US soil? An Arab, or any other person, who has lost his son or brother, would be capable to go to extreme measures. In Muslim world everybody knows that it’s because of American support that Israel is capable of bullying its neighbors. A few centuries from now historians would probably look at it as “the second crusader state”, used by West to gain a foothold in the Middle East. In regards to bombing of Yugoslavia, you should know better than I do, NATO is the US. The rest of the members are just supporters. The role of US in NATO is similar to USSR’s role in Warsaw Pact.

 

MJ, I am sure you have heard the word “revenge” a lot from various news sources? If you haven’t than I have. I have heard a lot about War, (some commentators also mention WW III), isn’t that an indication for American public’s appetite to see loss of lives and ruins in other parts’ of the world. I am disappointed at this civilized nation. I hope it’s because of mourning and extreme panic.

 

You have also said, “most of the people behave and express themselves in a very restrained and dignified manner, and expect their”. It’s true that most people were restrained in their comments, but some have harassed Muslims and even shot at Mosques. This is truly tragic. In times of panic Americans can do a lot of things that they later regret. Don’t forget the same thing happened against Japanese living in California during WW II.

 

Well I am glad at least someone has a confidence in this administration, because I surely don’t.

[alpha]

Here is the article from the Opinion section of September 15 LA Times. I find it very interesting.

 

By NAOMI KLEIN, Naomi Klein is the author of "No Logo."

 

TORONTO -- Now is the time in the game of war when we dehumanize our enemies.

 

They are utterly incomprehensible, their acts unimaginable, their motivations senseless. They are "madmen" and their states are "rogue." Now is not the time for more understanding--just better intelligence.

 

These are the rules of the war game. Feeling people will no doubt object to this term: War is not a game. It is real lives ripped in half; it is lost sons, daughters, mothers and fathers. Tuesday's act of terror was a reality check of the harshest kind.

 

It's true: War is most emphatically not a game. And perhaps, after Tuesday, it will never again be treated as one. Perhaps Sept. 11, 2001, will mark the end of the shameful era of the video game war.

 

Watching the coverage on Tuesday was a stark contrast to the last time I sat glued to a television set watching a real-time war on CNN. The Space Invader battlefield of the Gulf War had almost nothing in common with what we have seen this week. Back then, instead of real buildings exploding over and over again, we saw only sterile bomb's-eye views of concrete targets--there and then gone. Who was in those abstract polygons? We never found out.

 

Since the Gulf War, American foreign policy has been based on a single brutal fiction: that the U.S. military can intervene in conflicts around the world--in Iraq, Kosovo, Israel--without suffering any U.S. casualties. This is a country that has come to believe in the ultimate oxymoron: a safe war.

 

The safe-war logic is, of course, based on the technological ability to wage a war exclusively from the air. But it also relies on the deep conviction that no one would dare mess with the U.S.--the one remaining superpower--on its own soil.

 

This conviction has, until Tuesday, allowed Americans to remain blithely unaffected by--even uninterested in--international conflicts in which they are key protagonists. Americans don't get daily coverage on CNN of the ongoing bombings in Iraq, nor are they treated to human-interest stories on the devastating effects of economic sanctions on that country's children. After the 1998 bombing of a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan (mistaken for a chemical-weapons facility), there weren't too many follow-up reports about what the loss of vaccine manufacturing did to disease prevention in the region.

 

And when NATO bombed civilian targets in Kosovo--including markets, hospitals, refugee convoys, passenger trains--NBC didn't do "streeter" interviews with survivors about how shocked they were by the indiscriminate destruction.

 

The United States has become expert in the art of sanitizing and dehumanizing acts of war committed elsewhere. Domestically, war is no longer a national obsession, it's a business that is now largely outsourced to experts. This is one of the country's many paradoxes: Though it is the engine of globalization around the world, the nation has never been more inward looking, less worldly.

 

No wonder Tuesday's attack, in addition to being awful beyond description, has the added horror of seeming, to many Americans, to have arrived entirely out of the blue. Wars rarely come as a complete shock to the country under attack, but it's fair to say that this one did. On CNN, USA Today reporter Mike Walter was asked to sum up the reaction on the street. What he said was: "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I just can't believe it."

 

The idea that one could ever be prepared for such inhuman terror is absurd. However, viewed through the U.S. television networks, Tuesday's attack seemed to come less from another country than from another planet. The events were reported not so much by journalists as by the new breed of brand-name celebrity anchors who have made countless cameos in AOL Time Warner movies about apocalyptic terrorist attacks on the United States--now, incongruously reporting on the real thing. And for a bizarre split second on Tuesday night, CNN's graphic "America Under Attack" disappeared and in its place flashed another one that said "Fighting Fat"--an eerie ghost graphic of what passed for news yesterday.

 

The United States is a country that believed itself not just at peace but war-proof, a self-perception that would come as quite a surprise to most Iraqis, Palestinians and Colombians. Like an amnesiac, the U.S. has woken up in the middle of a war, only to find out it has been going on for years.

 

Did the United States deserve to be attacked? Of course not. That argument is ugly and dangerous. But here's a different question that must be asked: Did U.S. foreign policy create the conditions in which such twisted logic could flourish, a war not so much on U.S. imperialism but on perceived U.S. imperviousness?

 

The era of the video game war in which the U.S. is always at the controls has produced a blinding rage in many parts of the world, a rage at the persistent asymmetry of suffering. This is the context in which twisted revenge seekers make no other demand than that American citizens share their pain.

 

Since the attack, U.S. politicians and commentators have repeated the mantra that the country will go on with business as usual. The American way of life, they insist, will not be interrupted. It seems an odd claim to make when all evidence points to the contrary. War, to butcher a phrase from the old Gulf War days, is the mother of all interruptions. As well it should be. The illusion of war without casualties has been forever shattered.

[dragon]

100% I'm with it.

[MJ]

Alpha,

 

Effective the Golf War, the US military actions have been in retaliation of the invasion of Kuwait and the environmental terrorism committed by Iraq. However, I think at some point the arrogance has prevailed in some aspects. For example, I think the US and UK have no right to enforce the No-Fly zone in Iraq. But I totally agree that Hussein has to be contained. Even Syria at the time, not exactly the ally of the US, gave its support to the alliance to contain Iraq. Even Iran was happy about it, and took advantage of the situation. When we criticize somebody for crossing the boundries of reasonability, let us also be reasonable.

 

Additionally, if you are minimally aware of the biography of Bin Laden, his ideology, you would know that his agenda is indeed War against the Western Civilization. The wars against civilizations are indeed of cultural motivations, and this is indeed the case with Bin Ladin. However, the sentiment of cultural “superiority” always has tendency to lead to military wars when the circumstances allow. The war on the civilization in this particular case can be formulated in a very simple manner – it is against the European countries of Christian tradition, and the US. With all this, I hope that you would recognize that by saying all this I am not some kind of Christian ideologist, and you would recall my positive attitude towards Islam, and my multiple declarations in support of the Arabs and their culture.

 

US is supporting one of the warring factions in Middle East, by supplying weapons to Israel, so technically it’s a participant in that war

 

Not exactly. Not only US does it, but also many other nations, as well as they supply it to the Arab nations. But supplying weapons doesn’t imply being in war. There are ample such examples in the world. For example, Russia supplies weapons to Azerbaijan, however it is not neither technically nor otherwise in war with Armenia. Nor the opposite way.

 

Terrorists do actions to make a point. They don’t try to inflict maximum harm on their adversaries. I am not aware of McVeighs’ affiliation with the right wing - are you? As a matter of fact, his actions were very much against the right wing mentality and values, I think. Obviously McVeigh didn’t declare war to the Western civilization, but to the US government. At least this is what he has declared. But Bin Laden is a very different story. If an individual Arab would kill and individual American official, I wouldn’t consider it as a war against the Western civilization, but rather revenge, while still resenting it. But I think not to see the difference between a Palestinian suicide bomber and Bin Laden’s organization is either strange or attests to the lack of adequate knowledge.

 

 

In this case I thought it was US foreign policy. Just because the terrorists were Arabs shouldn’t make it a “War on Western Civilization”. Timothy McVeigh, was an American born and bred right wing terrorist who was influenced by extreme right wing and was dissatisfied by the actions of federal government that’s why he bombed Oklahoma City. Did we make such a big deal out of it.

 

Yes, we did. He was prosecuted and sentenced to capital punishment, and executed. We didn’t call it war against the Western civilization because it was not the motivation of McVeigh.

 

Was it considered a “War against liberals”? Of course not. I wouldn’t have been surprised if someone from Yugoslavia who has lost his whole family because of NATO bombing tied a bomb to him and blew himself up around White House. I am not a psychologist, but I think people who are capable to blow themselves up feel extremely powerless and see no point in their lives.

 

That also is possible in general (I don’t want to engage in the polemics on the subject of “liberals” ). However, the actions of Bin Laden’s followers have nothing to do with desperation, but are rather directed at the further escalation of whatever antagonism.

 

They see the terrorism as the last resort. Don’t you think that people who have lost their families due to or because of US foreign policy can commit actions in US soil? An Arab, or any other person, who has lost his son or brother, would be capable to go to extreme measures. In Muslim world everybody knows that it’s because of American support that Israel is capable of bullying its neighbors. A few centuries from now historians would probably look at it as “the second crusader state”, used by West to gain a foothold in the Middle East. In regards to bombing of Yugoslavia, you should know better than I do, NATO is the US. The rest of the members are just supporters. The role of US in NATO is similar to USSR’s role in Warsaw Pact.

 

OK. I resent the parts of the US foreign policy which are wrong in my view, and attest to either not understanding of the mentality and culture of the others, or are resulted from arrogance. There is indeed such element in the US Foreign policy. But what do you say then about the Jews, for example, who have lost their beloved ones, who have been declared war, who have been pleaded distraction, etc? I also consider that Israel currently is bulling its neighbors. And indeed without the US support it couldn’t do it. But has Israel declared war on Arab world or the opposite? Is it Israel who doesn’t recognize the right of the Arab world to exist or the opposite? And why is it not natural that the US supports Israel? There are about 20 million Jews who are American citizens. Isn’t it natural that the US is going to comply with the will of a significant portion of its nationals – especially of those who are politically active? Additionally, the US protects also Kuwait, and some other Arab states. Doesn’t it? And I don’t know why shouldn’t you know equally well with me that NATO is the US, and why should I know it better than you. However, I disagree. NATO is not the US, and your comparison with the USSR vs. Warsaw Pact is inadequate. The US is just one of the members – just the most powerful member. There is no way the US can force something on Italy, for example. As it concerns to Yugoslavia, the US has entered into this stage under the severe pressure from its European allies and with significant reluctance of the US Congress, especially its conservative members.

 

MJ, I am sure you have heard the word “revenge” a lot from various news sources? If you haven’t than I have. I have heard a lot about War, (some commentators also mention WW III), isn’t that an indication for American public’s appetite to see loss of lives and ruins in other parts’ of the world. I am disappointed at this civilized nation. I hope it’s because of mourning and extreme panic.

 

I have. I have said in my previous posting that there are some angry voices. However, the prevailing number of those who plug in raise their voice for restraint, meaningful actions, and not losing the sight of the purpose of the retaliatory action. So are the majority of the commentators. I don’t think it is because of the morning or panic. There is no panic, first of all. But there is a clear understanding that this is not going to stop unless eradicated. However, no matter what, you will always find some who would be blood-thirsty. That cannot be avoided in such a diverse nation. But they are far not a dominant voice, fortunately.

 

It’s true that most people were restrained in their comments, but some have harassed Muslims and even shot at Mosques. This is truly tragic. In times of panic Americans can do a lot of things that they later regret. Don’t forget the same thing happened against Japanese living in California during WW II.

 

Yes, you are right. But it is understandable. With a tragedy of such magnitude, there would be such cases no matter what and no matter in what country. However, there is no such mass outburst. Additionally, as much as I observe, for three days now, the governmental officials and the political commentators consistently urge the people over the TV not to take their anger against the Arabs, Muslims, people who don’t have blue eyes and blond hair. They educate people that the actions committed by Bin Laden are condemned even by Quran. I am sure that if this thing had happened in Germany, France or Sweden, for example, the blood of the Arabs would have changed the color of the horizon in these countries.

 

Well I am glad at least someone has a confidence in this administration, because I surely don’t.

 

I am not surprised. You have always been very transparent about it - not meaning rightfully so, however.

 

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[MJ]

Well, there is a lot of validity in the premise of this article. It has been recognized by many American politicians - including such right wing ones as Pat Buchanan. Additionally, everyone who is ibjective in the issue, would recall the Presidential compagn of Gorge W. Bush, who, multiple times expressed dissatisfaction with the US Foreign policy, and even when confronted during the presidential debates, he claimed that he would opt for "humbelness in the US foreign policy, and refrain from showing the American 'ugly' face." I think this was the second presidential debate.

But with all this recognition, I think it would be a gross misrepresentation to portray Bin Laden as a victim, and the US as the aggressor.

[MJ]

Dragon,

I am opting for the eradication of all terrorists - individuals and organizations.

It doesn't matter whether Bin Laden has committed this particular crime or not. He has committed enough at least since 1993.

[dragon]

I think we have the same view against terrorists and their eradication (humm...nice word...thanks ), but do you believe that even in such action there can be justice? That one day we wake up and see that world is free of all kind of terrorism?

 

I know it will take time, but I'm not sure if it will be 100%, as US is claiming day and night. This is not a perfect world, nor Holy planet.

[MJ]

I don't think that one morning we may wake up and see the terrorism eradicated. However, I think that we have to enforce its eradication every morning and every night - otherwise many of us would just not wake up one morning before even the archangel Gabriel finds it timely.