Strange coincidences between Armenian culture and other cult

[Guest]

1. The Ethiopian alphabet looks suspiciously similar to the Armenian one, but a bit more curvy (so does the Cherokee, a bit, though it is more similar looking to the Georgian alphabet).

 

2. Bolivians have a dance that is very similar to shortchbar (yes, I know circle dancces are found throughout the world, but the Bolivian one looks very Armenian).

 

3. The Basque word for water is also "jur"

 

4. Some Filipinos have last names that end with "yan."

 

5. I don't know why, whenever I hear the Japanese word "genki des" I want to laugh because it sounds like they are saying "gites?"

 

Any others we can add to the list? Try to look for coincidences from cultures remote from Armenia!

[Guest]

The Irish have some stone crosses, somehow similar to our Khatchkar , although ours ,I believe , involves alot of needle-like curving and inscriptions. Some Khatchkars are known to have been completed in 12 years.

 

(By the way, Steve , I've sent you 2 e-mails. Did you receive them?)

[Guest]

The stone crosses are not "Irish" - they are Celtic or Pictish - and the ones that are slightly similar to khatchkars are actually mostly from Scotland. However there is NO cultural connection between them and khatchkars. Celtic crosses are often made up of a very sophisticated interlace pattern that is formed from a continuous line, signifying eternity. The interlace pattern on Armenian crosses is much, much simpler and is probably decorative.

 

Steve

[Guest]

I will suggest bellthecat to visit the web page below. There is a very good section about Armenian stone crosses. It is obvious that Celtic stone crosses were influenced by Armenian khachkars given the migration of the Armenians westward and the historical period of their occurrence.

 

http://www.armenianhighland.com/

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by gamavor (edited November 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bellthecat:
Celtic crosses are often made up of a very sophisticated interlace pattern that is formed from a continuous line, signifying eternity. The interlace pattern on Armenian crosses is much, much simpler and is probably decorative.

Steve

---

A lot of Armenian cross stones are made exactly in the same spirit of the symbol of eternity. The manifestation of the symbol of eternity is very typical of the entire Armenian religious architecture and the cross stones, in particular.

[Guest]

Steve,

 

You sound very knowledgable about these things. I think one person you would enjoy discussing things with is Farsisteve, or AKA "Half Breed" which is is screen name. In fact you sound very like him at times!

[Guest]

In my high school I had a girl friend from Ethiopia. We would try and compare words and you would be surprised how much similar Armenian and Ethiopian are. For example, mastika in Eth means chewing gum, in old Armenian gum is called mastak. Dsita means oil, dset in Armenian. There were about 50+ words that were almost identical.

[Guest]

Armenian Stonehenge!?!? No kidding! Go to

 

http://www.tacentral.com/karahundj/karahundj1.html

 

They sit like soldiers on a hill, huddled in formation. The 204 stones near Sissian have been ascribed with mystical, fertility and cosmic powers, but rarely have ancient monuments caused such a sensation in astronomical circles.

 

These simple stones stretched out along the crest of a hill overlooking the Sissian River challenge the very dating of early astronomy and the answer to the question, "Who were the first astronomers?" If proven true, a current controversial dating of the stones at Karahundj predate England's Stonehenge, they predate the Babylonian's claim to being the first astronomers, and they confirm what some people already suspect: that Armenia is the birthplace of the zodiac, and perhaps the beginning of navigation and the concept of time.

 

Pretty amazing claim for a group of rough-cut stones that have been almost ignored for centuries. Not so to Elma Parsamian and Paris Herouni, both who have taken a keen interest in the complex about 5 kilometers from Sissian. Parsamian, an astral-physicist at the Byurakan Observatory and Internationally renowned lecturer on Astronomical History, and Herouni, the director of the first optical-radio telescope, have both crusaded to bring the stones at Karahundj to the attention of the astronomical world, and they are about to succeed. Astronomers from Europe and the US are showing increasing interest in the complex, and several expeditions have already taken place, confirming much of what these two conjecture.

[Guest]

Edg, that is interesting about the word for gum, but I think it might be Arabic in origin, I don't know. As for the alphabet, I think it might be more than coincidence, as there was quite a bit of contact in the early church between Ethiopia and Armenia due to their Monophysite Orthodox beliefs. I am pretty sure the Ethiopic script predates the Armenian, so there may have been some borrowing. I know this might not sit well with racists, the Idea that Blacks influenced the Armenian alphabet!

[Guest]

There is a very strange connection between Karahunj and Stonehenge.

They look very very similar and I believe they were built for the same purposes.

Though, the time difference is about 3,000 years.(Karahunj is much older!!!!! )

If you look at those 2 words...it's getting interesting....

KARA is STONE !!! There is no such word as HENGE in English (it's of Celtic origin), but the word HENGE sounds pretty much like HUNJ!!!So... STONEHENGE and KARAHUNJ actually have the same meaning!!!!!!!!!!!

So there is a strange connection.

BTW, KARAHUNJ means smth. like "the talk of the stones"

I see another connection between Armenian and Celtic cultures. One of the Celtic legends speaks about a "charmed" land called Vanaheim.The people of this land are called Vans.They are considered to be magicians.And they live in the waters of a silver lake called Van!!!

Inetersting...ha?

[Guest]

To further these "strange" analogies find a device that would allow you to listen Celtic folk music a bit slowly and soon you will find out that it is variation on the theme "Delle Yaman".

[Guest]

I used to date a Turkish girl, does that make me anti-Armenian. I just don’t understand why do you guys bring ethnicity into personal relationships.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by gamavor:
To further these "strange" analogies find a device that would allow you to listen Celtic folk music a bit slowly and soon you will find out that it is variation on the theme "Delle Yaman".

---

Interesting.

I've been buying that stuff for my wife and I've thought it doesn't sound that different from old Anatolian folk. Also, I swear half the time I'm playing my oud it sounds more Celtic than Armenian.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by alpha:
I used to date a Turkish girl, does that make me anti-Armenian. I just don’t understand why do you guys bring ethnicity into personal relationships.

---

Alpha, did you mean this for the other thread?

I don't think it makes you anti-Armenian; probably just more mature than the rest of us.

I can't help thinking about ethnicity since I've been focused upon my own practically since birth.

[Guest]

Sorry gamavor, although there seems to be a similarity of creative spirit in their creators, there is absolutely NO direct cultural connection between Celtic / Pictish cross-stones and Armenian cross-stones. The similarity really is just a superficial one. And if there was a connection, then it would be from Ireland and Scotland to Armenia - not the other way around - because the Celtic and Pictish crosses date from the early eighth century onwards, and khatchkars only started to appear in the 9th century (I am talking about carved stone slabs here, not the uncarved stone monoliths or tall steles).

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but are not the symbols of eternity on Armenian khatchkars mostly exactly that - precise symbols? In Celtic / Pictish crosses (and manuscripts), as well as having symbols, the eternity aspect is expressed in a more abstract way in their whole construction - namely the unbroken line of their knotwork interlace. This was accomplished using some exceedingly complex geometry. Their creators often (especially on illuminated manuscripts) introduced a deliberate design flaw or left the design unfinished because they considered that only God could produce complete perfection.

 

Steve

 

PS:

 

The word henge means circle - from the description at least it seems that Karahundj is not a circle. Do you notice the holes at the top of each stone? These are what the American ark-hunters would claim indicates that they were stone anchors used in Noah’s ark!

[Guest]

Interesting thought: Don't you think that traditional national armenian dress (especially for girls) looks like the medival dress of the celts, scottish, irish, english and the whole British Isles in the medeival days??

[Guest]

http://www.primenet.com/~lconley/index.html

 

On your left you will see some modifications on Armenian eternity symbol and on your right you will see some funny Celtic letters.

If you proceed to the musical site Altramar,not Aghtamar, Pilafhead might recognize his oud.

 

PS: Bellthecath, I will come back to khachkars issue with "heavy artillery" so be prepared. Of course there is no DIRECT link, otherwise my last name would be McCarthy or something to that effect.

 

Regards

[Guest]

Er, sorry again, Gamovar! The symbol is not "a modified Armenian eternity symbol" it is a triskele (the Celtic equivalent of the swastika) which dates back at least 500BC. And the symbol that you think of as an "Armenian eternity symbol" (the so-called Phrygian swastika) is not Armenian in origin. It is actually much older - I have seen it carved on Hittite lions from about 1500BC.

 

But if you are admitting there is no direct link, then why make the comparison. Like I said, the visual similarity is co-incidental. It is like saying that because minarets and space rockets look similar, the second is connected to the first!

 

Steve

[Guest]

Some Pictish and Irish/Celtic cross stones. Ill just post one picture to start with, to see if it works!

 

The "Aberlemo Stone" is Pictish (north-east Scotland), from the early 8th century AD.

 

http://armenianarchitecture.homestead.com/files/aberlemnostone.jpg

[Guest]

Two more:

 

The "Rossie Priory Stone" is also Pictish, from the 8th century.

 

http://armenianarchitecture.homestead.com/files/rossiepriorystone.jpg

 

The North Cross at Ahenny (Ireland) is also from the 8th century.

http://armenianarchitecture.homestead.com/files/ahennycross.jpg

 

As you can see, the Irish cross is nothing like any Armenian khatchkar that I have seen. The Pictish stones are much more similar, but the similarity is only visual.

 

Steve

[Guest]

The Armenian Xachkar has one unique befriends and it's weary consistent in every Armenian xachkar, that's the 3 Blooms ( borboj) on the each end or corner of the cross, Armenian Cross most always have this pattern ,

Surb Yerordutyun.

 

http://www.armenians.com/pics/xachqar.jpg

[Guest]

Classical historians and geographers cite the tradition that the Armenians migrated into their homeland from Thrace and Phrygia (Herodotus, Strabo), or even Thessaly (Strabo).

According to Strabo “Armeno-Phrygians moved to Anatolia from Thessaly”. This was one of the few recorded migrations of Europeans toward Anatolia. What prompted them to move back to their ancestral homeland is unknown, what is known is that this has happened somewhere between 2500BC-2000BC after the destruction of Troia. What is also known is that Armenians and Phrygians constituted ONE ethno-cultural entity until they split in 10c. BC. That is why it is difficult to say weather the Armenian eternity symbol is distinctively Armenian or Phrygian. The fact of the matter is that that symbol is widely distributed in Armenian highlands and can be easily recognized in many cuneiform inscriptions and historical sites dating back to that era.

On the other hand Hittites have been the western neighbors of the autohtonous Armenian Aryan tribes inhabiting Armenian plateau. After the downfall of the Hittite Empire, they were largely hellenized and part of them were assimilated into Armenian colonies in Asia Minor. Some of them probably moved to Central Europe and because of that some historians believe that so-called “Black” Irish are descendants of the Hittits.

The remnants of the Hittite also participated in the establishment of the Proto-Armenian Urartian Kingdom.

While I agree with you about lack of any DIRECT cultural connection between Armenians and Celts, I don’t think that cultural similarities are co-incidental. Probably they were mediated by some of the migrating tribes towards Europe. Later on the Armenian cultural presence and influence have become more evident through the enlargement of Byzantium.

When Romans invaded Celtic territories they described them as semi-nomadic barbarians. At the same time Armenia has had universities, cultural institutions, theological centers and philosophical schools that can only be compared with those of Byzantium. As you can see it would be “politically” unwise from my part to try to promote or advocate any kind of kinship between Armenians and Celts.

 

PS: I don’t mind being a space rocket!!!

[Guest]

Gamavor, I don’t think most historians today believe the classical accounts of Armenia’s origin - most now accept that the Armenian people around 500BC are predominantly the ethnic descendants of the Urartians. The Romans described anyone (including Armenians) who was not Roman as barbarians. Celtic metalwork is far superior, technically and artistically, to Greek or Roman work - and, at a later period, the Celtic illuminated manuscripts are still unsurpassed in this art form. Celtic literature was also far in advance of any other part of Dark-Ages Europe, as were thoughts on philosophical and judicial matters. Don't blindly follow the academic establishment's Mediterranean bias! After all, Armenia unjustifiably suffers from the same bias - being seen as an unimportant region on the periphery of the classical world.

 

It is not "politically unwise" to promote kinship between Armenians and Celts, it is just historically unwise to imagine there are hard cultural links, and a bit "diplomatically unwise" because you seem to be taking a "Turkish-style" approach to Armenia’s importance in European culture (in that you are suggesting a sort of Armenian equivalent to Turkey’s ludicrous "sun theory").

 

Steve

 

 

PS

And (to digress quite a big bit) for the FUTURE it is not going to be the perceived "Roman values" of exploitation, standardisation, mass consumerism, control of nature, etc., that the world will have to follow, but the perceived "Celtic" values of individuality, self-sufficiency, sustainability, respect for the natural world, etc.

[Guest]

History is a chronology of the events that took place in the human society and by definition it is based on the facts and circumstances that surround them. But history is also human activity in a sense of participation by your own deeds in the global picture. History is also a science and knowledge that is gathered, evaluated and analyzed by human beings who are called Historians, and as humans they have their own prejudices, inclinations and convictions. The substance of History is time. Every civilization have had its peaks and downs and I guess this is the most important lesson of the History, because what today looks OK, hardly would be perceived in the same manner 100 years from now.

The historical relations between Rome and Armenia were very long, complex and uneasy. We are talking about more than 2000 years long history. You can imagine how many political systems have changed during that time, how many historical events have passed that shaped these relations. I don’t recall any labeling of Armenians as barbarians by the Romans. At times of stagnation or crises within Roman political elite, or in times when Armenia strived to be independent from Rome, the Armenians were called “infidel eastern provinces between Caspian and Pontus” or at certain times “heretics”. Needles to mention the participation of Armenian military contingents into Roman military campaigns or the high ranks that some Naharar Houses were granted by Rome. The general term “barbarians” was used in both Eastern and Western Roman Empire as a reference toward non-Christians and that is why Celts for a long period of time were called “barbarians”, together with Huns, Goths, ostgots, Slavs, etc.

Celtic art works and literature probably are superior compared to the arts and literature (although I doubt that) of the Dark – Ages Europe, merely because they were free from dogma and burdens of the political and religious establishment in Europe at that particular time, but you definitely can not reiterate the same for a period of time, say 6th century AD. , or you can not compare Armenian architectural monuments or Greek and Roman pantheons with Celtic, simply because there is no Celtic monuments from that era. Also if you compare Armenian manuscripts from 10-11AD to Celtic manuscripts from 13-14AD, probably the Celtic would be more appealing to the eye. When Armenian society adopted Christian values and when the Armenian cultural life was flourishing Celts were living on the trees. Likewise when Celts were enjoying the benefits of the industrial revolution Armenians were subjects of the Ottoman Empire. History is about timing. History is about social experience. You can not compare the works of Aristotle to those of Cicero or to those of John Lock not only because they were living in different historical times but also because the accumulated social experience of the human society was different.

I will probably disappoint you by saying that Celtic “ideas” that you are talking about are not Celtic. Individualism was paradigmatic to human society since times immemorial. Celts can learn a lot from Jewish Kibbutz culture with regard to “sustainable societies”; you can trace back ideas about preservation of nature in Greek mitology; and finally self-sufficiency (i.e. egoism) is even prehistoric.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by gamavor (edited November 29, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by gamavor (edited November 29, 2000).]