Gul in Armenia and the ARF

[KnightOfArmenia]

Turkish diplomacy is actually very very poor. It relies on money and their geographic location. They "got away" with everything they've done thus far, really, because the U.S. didn't want to risk them falling into the Soviet sphere. Honestly, the smartest political move they made was staying neutral in World War II, rather than going fascist, which is what was very heavily considered and almost done (for an attack on the Caucasus during the Drang nach Osten of Germany).

 

For example, look worldwide - the "huff and puff" threats they levy on any nation that recognizes the Genocide. Look at France - they withdrew their ambassador from France and canceled several deals with the French... only to come crawling back later, as they needed those economic ties more than the French did. It made them look ridiculously weak. Or look at the warzone that is eastern Turkey. They have the second largest military in NATO, and they haven't been able to defeat the Kurds in 30 years. It's a human rights embarrassment for NATO, one they rarely discuss in the Western media for obvious reasons.

[hyethga]

Agreed.

 

Turkey is important geopolitically because it's a NATO ally on the doorstep of both Russia and the Middle East that is ruthlessly governed by a military that the US can depend on. Had things in 1920 turned out differently, this wouldn't be the case; unfortunately, they didn't. Considering the substantial - and that is an understatement - pressure on Armenia, it has done amazingly well: with its borders almost entirely closed, hostile neighbors to all directions except south (which is a neighbor hostile to everyone else on the planet, basically), it has survived and actually won a war right in its infancy, energy shortages, corruption, political turmoil, and constant threats of renewed war. Armenian politicians may have sucked 15 years ago, but now - with the help of the far more savvy Armenian politicians that have been working in the West for decades - have become very good at the Great Game.

 

lol, is that last part a joke?

 

Հիմիկվա քաղաքական գործիչները Սովետական Միության ոճից են:

 

If anything, they're just cultivating and perpetuating the legacy the USSR left us.

Edited September 15, 2008 by hyethga

[Anoosh]

I agrre with you, very well explained...

 

Arpa, I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

First, the biggest criticism that strong democracies have against the United States is the two-party system - it's also why voter participation is negligible in the United States to the point where cynics can make a strong argument that it's no longer an actual democracy.

 

Second, you dislike the parties. That's your choice. But half the things you say are just silly - simply because you're ignorant of facts, doesn't mean the facts don't exist. If you're asking what the ARF is - rather, why it is called the "Armenian Revolutionary Federation" - then I can answer you: Armenian is obvious; Revolutionary is because it is a Socialist organization, and one of its core ideals is the belief in the Proletarian revolution, though colored in this case by a belief in nationalist ideals, as well as the revolution against the various Powers that held dominion over the Armenians; Federation because, at its founding, it was held as a federation of different Armenians from different parts of the nation (from the Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, and Persian Empire) and different political parties. Thus, Armenian Revolutionary Federation. You don't change the names of institutions simply because "right now, they no longer apply" - hell, arguments can be made that they still apply, very much, since much of Armenia is still not in Armenia, and it's a federation of Diasporan and Republican Armenians.

 

[KnightOfArmenia]

lol, is that last part a joke?

 

Հիմիկվա քաղաքական գործիչները Սովետական Միության ոճից են:

 

If anything, they're just cultivating and perpetuating the legacy the USSR left us.

 

Not at all - simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't doing an amazing job.

 

For example: Armenia receives massive amounts of aid from the United States despite being a chief trading partner of Iran (diehard enemy of the US), a military ally and trading partner of Russia (a former - and, lately, current - US rival), an enemy of Turkey (a decades old close ally of the US) and in a state of war with Azerbaijan (a NATO hopeful that also supplies oil to the US). If you don't think that is an absolute diplomatic coup, then you're letting your personal dislike for individuals cloud your judgment.

[hyethga]

Not at all - simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't doing an amazing job.

 

For example: Armenia receives massive amounts of aid from the United States despite being a chief trading partner of Iran (diehard enemy of the US), a military ally and trading partner of Russia (a former - and, lately, current - US rival), an enemy of Turkey (a decades old close ally of the US) and in a state of war with Azerbaijan (a NATO hopeful that also supplies oil to the US). If you don't think that is an absolute diplomatic coup, then you're letting your personal dislike for individuals cloud your judgment.

 

That part, balance-wise, I would not disagree with. I'm just naturally suspicious of what Sarkisyan was thinking, inviting Gul to Armenia - appeasing the West after the February elections to show that he is a progressive leader? or, more nefariously, just displaying an example of «գողավազակություն» politics, selling out the country just to fatten his wallet, consequences be damned.

[KnightOfArmenia]

That part, balance-wise, I would not disagree with. I'm just naturally suspicious of what Sarkisyan was thinking, inviting Gul to Armenia - appeasing the West after the February elections to show that he is a progressive leader? or, more nefariously, just displaying an example of «գողավազակություն» politics, selling out the country just to fatten his wallet, consequences be damned.

 

What does it matter to invite him?

 

The ARF protest showed - clearly - that the entirety of the Armenian population, even at home, were not in favor. Arpa was talking about how it was embarrassing, and how there's supposedly some "bad Armenian" stereotype in the world (which I've never heard of). I pose a different view - Armenia is democratic enough, and stable enough, to invite even an enemy leader as a sign that, although it pursues its interests, it is not some N. Korean regime. The people are allowed to protest, and do so civilly, without violence, as in other democracies.

 

Again - simply because you dislike someone or something doesn't mean everything they do is evidence of some villainy.

[Twilight Bark]

I think Armenia cannot expect to sell this idea of ambiguity for much long. I think think Turkey knows a thing or two about diplomacy, and they are the first to not buy into the Armenian ambiguity.

Diplomacy doesn't involve "buying into" things. It involves "getting away" with things. There is a big difference between saying "we are peaceful, and do not have any demands", and "we hereby sign away the right of all Armenians, present and future, to demand anything from you". The latter would only be justified under two circumstances:

1. A huge compromise from Turkey and forever-enforcable (how?) economic and cultural rights given to Armenians and Armenia in former western Armenia.

2. A gun pointing to the heads of every Armenian citizen in Armenia.

 

Item 1 is quite unlikely, and I hope we never see Item 2.

 

If diplomacy is the art of polite deceit, it is also the art of "give and take", diplomacy has never been used for taking without giving.

Quite right. And what was it that you were suggesting Armenia/Armenians take away from ratifying the Kars treaty?

 

IF, on the other hand, we are so lucky as to successfully "sell" this ambiguity it will be because Armenia will be permitted to do so, such "permission" will only be due to certain strength in Armenian diplomacy.

Diplomacy can only do so much without real strengtn on the ground. The best you can hope from diplomacy is to not screw up. Real gains are made by real strengths in the economy and the military. I don't see any serious diplomatic errors on the part of Armenia lately. I just hope our real strengths are building up in the meantime.

[Twilight Bark]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kars

[KnightOfArmenia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kars

 

Nice writeup.

 

Should be noted that the ARF's official policy is that the Armenian SSR, being a "puppet republic" lacking democratic foundation and at the control of Moscow, was not a legitimate state and therefore the Treaty of Kars is null and void. Personally, although this is solid in an ideological sense, it has no sense of realpolitik. Compare that to the politicians in charge today - by claiming that the government accepts "the agreements inherited from the Soviet Union," it clearly states that it was a USSR agreement that Armenia is agreeing to, not an Armenian agreement; more importantly, it uses the same agreement to call Turkey to task. Turkey had to agree to all those matters because it was dealing with the USSR, which even at the time was a strong nation - it is now bound by those same agreements, and until and unless IT meets them, any repudiation of the treaty by Armenia would be valid (which leaves open the claims of territory in W. Armenia). VERY politically savvy.

[hyethga]

What does it matter to invite him?

 

The ARF protest showed - clearly - that the entirety of the Armenian population, even at home, were not in favor. Arpa was talking about how it was embarrassing, and how there's supposedly some "bad Armenian" stereotype in the world (which I've never heard of). I pose a different view - Armenia is democratic enough, and stable enough, to invite even an enemy leader as a sign that, although it pursues its interests, it is not some N. Korean regime. The people are allowed to protest, and do so civilly, without violence, as in other democracies.

 

Again - simply because you dislike someone or something doesn't mean everything they do is evidence of some villainy.

 

Of course it is.

 

You have to understand the definition of «միամտություն»

 

Turkey is already using this opportunity to exploit the divisions among Armenians (Gul's comments in Turkey after the match clearly demonstrate this), you can't be so naive to think that their actions in the long term are going to benefit us. After 150 years, you would think we would have learned something by now and stopped be such a դյուրահավատ ժողովորդ, այսքան միամատ քաղաքականություն չի կարելի որդեգրել.

Edited September 15, 2008 by hyethga

[KnightOfArmenia]

Of course it is.

 

You have to understand the definition of «միամտություն»

 

Turkey is already using this opportunity to exploit the divisions among Armenians (Gul's comments in Turkey after the match clearly demonstrate this), you can't be so naive to think that their actions in the long term are going to benefit us. After 150 years, you would think we would have learned something by now and stopped be such a դյուրահավատ ժողովորդ, այսքան միամատ քաղաքականություն չի կարելի որդեգրել.

 

...wait... you're arguing that, because you dislike someone or something, then everything they do is villainy?

[DominO123]

Zareh, I don't see any of those requiring any talents, in fact the Turks have been conditioned because of their advantagious position to suck so much in diplomacy but still doing very well. Take Azerbaijan for example, the US and other nations still kiss their @ss because there is oil flowing in the Caspian. Azerbaijan not only suck in diplomacy, they really suck big time, their diplomacy is only slightly better than the cave men, but it is excused du to their advantagious position.

 

Its like claiming that your dog has some talent in finding food, when in fact you feed him every day.

[DominO123]

...wait... you're arguing that, because you dislike someone or something, then everything they do is villainy?

 

You are not believing their intention was genuine? The invitation was probably proposed by a third party after Turkey has gone turkey because of what happened in the Caucasus. Didn't you read the article I have posted? All the bluff about Turkey new peace union was because their politicians have once again gone psychotic after what happened in the Caucasus. This invitation was not the idea of the Armenian government.

 

Turkey will now use this for its own interest presenting itself as an alternative to the MINSK group, replacing Russia's role in the mediation between Armenian and Azerbaijan.

 

The Armenian government should make it clear that Turkey has NO BUSINESS and should keep its durty hands out from the Caucasus.

[KnightOfArmenia]

You are not believing their intention was genuine? The invitation was probably proposed by a third party after Turkey has gone turkey because of what happened in the Caucasus. Didn't you read the article I have posted? All the bluff about Turkey new peace union was because their politicians have once again gone psychotic after what happened in the Caucasus. This invitation was not the idea of the Armenian government.

 

Turkey will now use this for its own interest presenting itself as an alternative to the MINSK group, replacing Russia's role in the mediation between Armenian and Azerbaijan.

 

The Armenian government should make it clear that Turkey has NO BUSINESS and should keep its durty hands out from the Caucasus.

 

While I generally agree, Turkey trying to replace the MINSK group would simply lead to the end of what little talk there is. Plain and simple, it wouldn't be invited by the Armenian side.

[Arpa]

Dear Knight, Hay Aspet,

You have not yet responded to my question as to why we must have 70-80 so called comical and clownish PPs , initiated by those who may have failed as clowns at the local circus.

Ye, yes. We know. The so called two party system of the US may be another farce, yet, in the least we don’t have over 80 so called farcical PPs. Don’t some of those clowns need a “day job,” like trash collection (sanitary engineer), dog catchers, that Yerevan is drowning in both trash and stray dogs? Why am I not a presidential candidate? Is it because I have "day job" where I have to rise before the sun and don't get home until after the sun sets? Some people need a "day job"!!

In the least, in the US, with the primary system, when it comes to the wire we have 2 or, sometimes a couple of more stragglers and write ins. Compare that to the 9 presidential contenders that kept running till the last minute, when some of them got ZERO , 0 nada, vochinch votes. Is everything Armenian a JOKE? No wonder the furks think our claims of the BIg G is a JOKE!

Don’t get me wrong. I have , and always had utmost respect and admiration of the ARF. But, is it not time for them to amend their moniker to reflect the present situation in “armenia“? I spell the word “armenia” in the lower case A to mean greater “armenia” within and without the present ROA, all the way from Ararat to Zulustan.

To not forget that this so called presidential capaign in America gets to be nauseous. Vomit! Vomit!

http://vomit.poyt.com/images/drunkin_pumpkin.jpg

Edited September 17, 2008 by Arpa

[KnightOfArmenia]

Again, I disagree. The two-party system is an absolute joke.

 

Originally, the primaries were a voting system. You realize that, correct? They were implemented at a time when the choosing of presidential candidates was not done democratically. Party officials met and haggled about who would be the party candidate - the entire "primary season" we just saw was condensed into a period of 3 days, and done without the public. Read into, for example, how FDR was chosen for a third term - literally, the folks who ran the audio equipment were FDR supporters, and basically cut all the mikes for others, played a recording that asked "we need FDR again!" then a recording that chanted "FDR! FDR!" THAT is how he was chosen as the Democratic candidate for a third term, and which got his name on the ballot. Not to mention that, originally, who got the VP slot was also a hotly debated, rather than just "announced" by the presidential candidate. I'd rather have 100 political parties, and a lack of a clear majority for any so that runoff elections and coalition governments lead the way, as opposed to a 2 party system in which 50.1% of support allow the government to disregard the remaining 49.9% of the population.

[hyethga]

http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/08/30/armenia...football-match/

 

That is a very deceptive photo.

 

Onik Krikorian should be ashamed.

[ARMEN83]

I agree with the idea that Armenia does not need so much political parties. If someone is against 2 party system we can have 3 or 4 maybe 5 but not up to 90 parties. I dont really think that this is a sign of democracy. I think the only reson why we have so much parties is that armenian guys don't like to work under someone, they dont like to be unified, everybody wants to be a "BOSS" a "BIG BOSS". Look at our history it's always been like that, Our "naharars" always wannted to be independent, in some cases they helped to our enemy to kill the KING, just for promises to get more power. And now if you look at those parties you not gonna see a big difference between their ideology, its just a people who dont wanna work together, and thats why they got their own parties. It's never been a sign of democracy. We all know a lot of democratic countries where people live even better life than in Armenia but those countries does not have so much parties. I think its killing Armenia by dividing our society instead of consolidating them into "One Big and Strong Nation". Edited September 18, 2008 by ARMEN83