DominO Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Here are the statistics of 1913 from the official Armenian records. The 1912 are those from McCarthy after he applied correction value to the Ottoman records. The % is the deviation in % from the Armenian records, as can be seen from the regions where the Ottoman had more administrative control both figures are similar and we even observe undercounting from the 1913 records. The Merge represent choosing the highest between the two. The reason is that the 1913 figures when comparing we observe are not overcounting, the population differences for the less administrative control is the highest. Note the capital, where the Ottoman had the most administrative control, the differences is of 0,94%. We arrive at 1966400 for the population. 1913 1912 McC % Merge Europe Istanbul 163670 162134 -0,94 163670 Edirne 30316 33650 11 33650 Selarik / 87 / 87 Cecair / 140 / 140 Total 193986 196011 197547 Western Anatolia Hudavendigar 118992 97616 -17,96 118992 Izmit 61675 69225 12,24 69225 Aydin 21145 25030 18,37 25050 Biga / 2805 2805 Total 201812 194676 216072 Northern Anatolia Kastamonu 13461 13702 1,79 13702 Trabzon 73395 63326 -13,72 73395 Total 86856 77028 87097 Central Anatolia Sivas 204472 182912 -10,54 204472 Ankara 135869 125616 -7,55 135869 Konya 20738 24856 19,86 24856 Total 361079 333384 365197 Southern Anatolia Adana 119414 74930 -37,25 119414 Haleb 189565 123129 -35,05 189565 Total 308979 198059 308979 Eastern Anatolia Bitlis 218404 191156 -12,48 218404 Mamuretulaziz 124289 111043 -10,66 124289 Diyarbakir 106867 89131 -16,6 106867 Van 110897 130500 17,68 130500 Erzurum 202391 163216 -19,36 202391 Total 762848 685046 782451 Syria Suriye / 1768 1768 Beyrut / 4010 4010 Cebelilubnan / 6 6 Kudsiserif / 2340 2340 Zor / 283 283 Total 8407 8407 Iraq Mosul / 100 100 Baghdad / 500 500 Dasra / 50 50 Total 650 650 Total 1915560 1693261 1966400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Unfortunately I don't have it either.This fanatic Turk from Turkish forum posted this graph and claimed based on that Armenians were mere 350k before AG! Absurd right? At 1st I just dismissed it as another bogus crap (It is still crap) but upon closer look I added all the numbers and got over 1 million Armenians!Now this jackass claimed 350k! So I just used his bogus material against him. I would like to know where this graph comes from myself. Armat, the map has some problems compared to the official Ottoman figures. I'll check that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24avril1915 Posted November 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Here are the statistics of 1913 from the official Armenian records. The 1912 are those from McCarthy after he applied correction value to the Ottoman records. The % is the deviation in % from the Armenian records, as can be seen from the regions where the Ottoman had more administrative control both figures are similar and we even observe undercounting from the 1913 records. The Merge represent choosing the highest between the two. The reason is that the 1913 figures when comparing we observe are not overcounting, the population differences for the less administrative control is the highest. Note the capital, where the Ottoman had the most administrative control, the differences is of 0,94%. We arrive at 1966400 for the population. 1913 1912 McC % Merge Europe Istanbul 163670 162134 -0,94 163670 Edirne 30316 33650 11 33650 Selarik / 87 / 87 Cecair / 140 / 140 Total 193986 196011 197547 Western Anatolia Hudavendigar 118992 97616 -17,96 118992 Izmit 61675 69225 12,24 69225 Aydin 21145 25030 18,37 25050 Biga / 2805 2805 Total 201812 194676 216072 Northern Anatolia Kastamonu 13461 13702 1,79 13702 Trabzon 73395 63326 -13,72 73395 Total 86856 77028 87097 Central Anatolia Sivas 204472 182912 -10,54 204472 Ankara 135869 125616 -7,55 135869 Konya 20738 24856 19,86 24856 Total 361079 333384 365197 Southern Anatolia Adana 119414 74930 -37,25 119414 Haleb 189565 123129 -35,05 189565 Total 308979 198059 308979 Eastern Anatolia Bitlis 218404 191156 -12,48 218404 Mamuretulaziz 124289 111043 -10,66 124289 Diyarbakir 106867 89131 -16,6 106867 Van 110897 130500 17,68 130500 Erzurum 202391 163216 -19,36 202391 Total 762848 685046 782451 Syria Suriye / 1768 1768 Beyrut / 4010 4010 Cebelilubnan / 6 6 Kudsiserif / 2340 2340 Zor / 283 283 Total 8407 8407 Iraq Mosul / 100 100 Baghdad / 500 500 Dasra / 50 50 Total 650 650 Total 1915560 1693261 1966400 Have-you a link for this statistic ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Have-you a link for this statistic ? Everything have no links. The 1912 figures are taken from Muslim and minorities and maps draw by McCarthy, the other are Patriarchate official figures, they are not those released by Marcel Léart or those used for propaganda purpouses, they were for internal consuption. They were official published by Raymond H. Kevorkian and Paul B. Paboudjian in Les Arméniens dans l'Empire Ottoman à la vielle du génocide, Ed. ARHIS, Paris, 1992 You can find it here p.82 from McCarthy chapter in a Turkish government publication. Don't buy what McCarthy is saying on p.81, he is making baseless assumptions to discredit the statistic but admit them to be superior to the other Patriarchate figures. Those were drown according to the parishes informations, birth, death certificates and the other records available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 BTW, Le Génocide des Arméniens by Raymond H. Kevorkian is really an impressive work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Statistiques : http://www.webaram.com/stat_teotig.html#Anchor-Vilayet-23240 I've checked this statistic, it is off mark in many cases, I just agree with one, 130,500 is obviously an underestimation of the Armenians of Van, not as much as the 1913 statistics though. If we take the merge figures I have provided and add a 1,2% increase of population for the period of one year to find 1914 (note that it is not an exaggeration given that McCarthy figures represent 1912), we find 1,989,997. So there was approximativally 2 million Armenians to be moderate, but probably more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24avril1915 Posted November 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Les massacres arméniens - J Toynbee - 1916 http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=36114 Le grand illustre 25 septembre 1904 http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=35971 Metro 11 juillet 2007 : Cet été , retour aux sources en Arménie http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=35972 Emile Doumergue : L’Arménie, les massacres et la Question d’Orient 1916 http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=36064 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24avril1915 Posted November 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 Monsieur Henry Morgenthau Ambassadeur des Etats-Unis à Constantinople en 1915 : Version originale française http://www.armenews.com/forum.php3?id_article=36178 Version Texte : http://www.imprescriptible.fr/documents/morgenthau version Anglaise : http://www.homepage-link.to/turkey/morgenthau1.html En Turc : http://www.homepage-link.to/turkey/turkish/turkish.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 (edited) I'm just wondering why you guys don't keep just one layout, insteed o having different pages for .org, .com, .info etc... why not all using the same one present on http://www.imprescriptible.fr ? Edited November 23, 2007 by Domino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24avril1915 Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Abbé Chaperon : Un aumônier militaire français témoin du drame arménien, Journal de l’Abbé Chaperon, Cilicie 1920-Constantinople 1921-1923 http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=36176 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24avril1915 Posted December 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 National Geographic - Armenia and the Armenians - october 1915 http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=36251 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24avril1915 Posted December 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 update : http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=36255 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoComment Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) what do you think about this argument: "it´s absolut nonsense to take in consideration the statistic of the armenian population just before 1915" I thought in the beginning that it was too excessive, but afterwards, by taking into consideration "some" of the facts: - between 1894 and 1894 it is estimated that the number of armenians decrease with nearly 500 000 persons [300 000 were killed, 50 000 orphans, 100 000 refugees in the Transcaucasians] - massacres in Adana 1909 : 30 000 victims - the census doesn´t take into account the fact that the armenians wasn´t willing to "register" all their family members - .... The Genocide didn´t begin in 1915, and before 1915 the armenian population went throught too many exactions (removals, massacres, change of religion...) Edited December 4, 2007 by NoComment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 "NoComment" and all what you said to the cotrery! first of all introduce your self second, what do you mean by.. "it´s absolut nonsense to take in consideration the statistic of the armenian population just before 1915" and - between 1894 and 1894? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoComment Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) sorry - read between 1894 and 1896 introduce myself? an armenian born in France, living in Sweden Kharpetsi and Dikranagertsi "it´s absolut nonsense to take in consideration the statistic of the armenian population just before 1915": I didnt mean something, it was a quote (between 2 "") this quote means that taking in consideration the statistic of the armenian population just before 1915 (1914 for example) without taking consideration of some major facts (developp in 3 points in my first topic) minimise the reality ... Edited December 5, 2007 by NoComment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 No Problem, welcome to hyeforum, which part of Kharpert is your ancestors from, do you know by any chance? my wifes family is from Bazmashen, my own Fathers side is from Mush, Mothers from Khoy Salmast-Jugha-to Iranian Namakert. while vacationing in Jermuk Armenia I noticed almost everyone is Vayq and surrounding areas can pin point there roots to Sasun and Mush to Khoy and Salmast. right now I'm doing more research to that regard, many from Sasun, and Mush in general escaped or fled hamidian massacres and settled in Khoy-Salmast, while in his faymous book by Khachik Dashtents (Ranchparneri Kanche) it mentions how Andranik and maxluto (Smbat Boroyan) had gone to Salmast and recruited under there wing old fighters from Sasun. its an amazing story. I start to believe many in Syuniq are direct descendents of Mush remnant population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoComment Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 I just found recently (nearly 2 years ago I think) that our surname wasn´t the one we got in Kharpert, very difficult to have any chance to know more about our ancestor as my grand-parents (father side) were young orphans. we just begin to rediscover ourselves and the amazing stories are so numerous every time we look in our book see you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) I just found recently (nearly 2 years ago I think) that our surname wasn´t the one we got in Kharpert, very difficult to have any chance to know more about our ancestor as my grand-parents (father side) were young orphans. we just begin to rediscover ourselves and the amazing stories are so numerous every time we look in our book see you You mean that your present furckish surname of "CHIRKINIAN" to mean "UGLY", Stanbul-ian, Izmirl-ian, Bokh-jali-kakli-ian is not your anecstral surname like Mamikonian, Arshakuni, Aramian, Tigranian or Yerevanian ??? Why is it that we must know furkish to see that in their language a surname like "bokh-jali-ian" (bundle) also mean "shit collector-diaper"? Edited December 5, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 You mean that your present furckish surname of "CHIRKINIAN" to mean "UGLY", Stanbul-ian, Izmirl-ian, Bokh-jali-kakli-ian is not your anecstral surname like Mamikonian, Arshakuni, Aramian, Tigranian or Yerevanian ??? Why is it that we must know furkish to see that in their language a surname like "bokh-jali-ian" (bundle) also mean "shit collector-diaper"? Arpa what is the relevance of this post with NoComment? Please either edit this to make it as a general post or better remove it altogether and I will remove my post afterwards. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoComment Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 absolutely not, I have a name beginning by M, and found out that our real name was/is Aprahamian, a difference witch have nothing to do with your so called furkish name and if I did have a furkish name, in witch way should I be surprised or offensed that it is/was a furkish name, I´m an armenian, and I will as so furkish all the ones who doesn´t respect my origine and my name ... I haven´t seen so many armenian people issued from the genocide using "lolig" for tomato, did you ? I hope that the survivors who did use an furkish name (as tomatés for tomato) were then not excommunicated ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) absolutely not, I have a name beginning by M, and found out that our real name was/is Aprahamian, a difference witch have nothing to do with your so called furkish name and if I did have a furkish name, in witch way should I be surprised or offensed that it is/was a furkish name, I´m an armenian, and I will as so furkish all the ones who doesn´t respect my origine and my name ... I haven´t seen so many armenian people issued from the genocide using "lolig" for tomato, did you ? I hope that the survivors who did use an furkish name (as tomatés for tomato) were then not excommunicated ... Good for you. And welcome. With all due respects to Yervant above. I do at times, more often than not use strong language when it comes to this subject. It hurts me, I mean, it hurts me to see, day after day, people come here and other sites begging to be liberated of their furkish surnames but not knowing how. Not knowing how? How would they know when more than half of our bishops an Catholicoses have or have had furkish surnames themseleves. When we have presidential candiadates with names like "demirji-oghlu-ian" (even furkish candiadates don't have such furkish surnames). It will be the end of Armenia and the Armenian nation when someone with surname like Demirji-ian or Kurd-oghlu-ian (both real and actual) becomes the president of Armenia. If and when that hppens I will change my surname to Indo-nes-ian or Niger-ian. Yes, it does HURT me when we have no guidance and help to find our ancestral surnames or, in the least find approprite Armenian family names. Someone should start a program to help all those who wish to rid themselves of ugly, pejorative and insultfu furkish surnames. I am willing. But who is asking me? A good example would be this- Norian; http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/...hard_to_forget/ I know this man, I know the family. And for those, like Remain Faithful who may wonder. Yes, he is the brother of Rev. Soghomon Nuyujikian Their story is somewhat convoluted if ingenious. Their original furko-Armenian surname was Nuyujukian. They were never happy and comfortable with it, until the children came up with an ingenoius idea. They took the first syllable "nuy/new", changed to Armenian "nor" and VOILA!!! How much simpler, if ingenious can it be!!?? Edited December 5, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoComment Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 I still not understand why it is such a big deal for you, we inherit the names we got, and due to our history with centuries of furkish domination what can we really expect it didn´t stop them to exterminate, torture the armenians with this kind of a furkish name did I pass succesfully the test to be one of "yours" as you wrote 4750 posts, I´m just wondering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 He has a thing with his own last name, and he hasn't heard of mine do not worry and feel welcomed here, Arpa is our most "youngest" Member here, he sometimes has tenancy to loose his physicians, i meant petiants:) Arpa jan amen inch lava hopar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maral Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 http://www.armenews.com/IMG/National_Geogr...ctober_1915.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 Wow, thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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