The Myth Of The U.s.a.

[Yervant1]

Hey, I am all with Shahan here ... show me a country where I can maintain the same level of life style I have here, not be forced to earn wages (by renting/whoring myself out to employers), and not have any debt ...

 

I'll pack up move there tomorrow ... heck scratch that ... I'll move there today!

Canada, hey we'll throw in an universal health care program since you are a nice guy.

[Shahan Araradian]

Hey, I am all with Shahan here ... show me a country where I can maintain the same level of life style I have here, not be forced to earn wages (by renting/whoring myself out to employers), and not have any debt ...

 

I'll pack up move there tomorrow ... heck scratch that ... I'll move there today!

You'll still have to whore yourself out but at least not for 30 years! (A nice apartment in Downtown Montreal goes for about $200K, so you should be able to save that up in 4-5 years at a decent intellectual prostitute job -- read "white collar" job.)

 

After that, whatever money you make is free for your own use, instead of paying interest to capitalists on an $800K loan...

Edited August 12, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sip]

Ok between Canada and man-whoring myself, I might stick with man-whoring ... but I still agree that high levels of debt (i.e. spending way beyond one's earning power) is probably not a good idea.

[Anonymouse]

Wages are nothing more than rent paid to a human for his labor; it is temporary use of his body -- either for physical or mental labor.

 

Looks like we got a Karl Polanyi protege here! The typical baseless and unsubstantiated accusations against the free market system.

 

With the way the human social hierarchy has been set up, it's that most people have no other choice but to work for someone else.

 

People are free to go set up a farm, live there, and make a subsistence living, 'living off the earth'. The problem with subsistence farming, as anyone who studied pre-Industrial societies knows, there are famines, low or no harvests, no rains, etc. The capitalist revolution permitted man to break away from subsistence farming and allowed others to engage in specialization. Less time can now be spent on subsistence living and more time on other utility maximizing activities. How else do you expect you have this very internet and cell phone that you are using? Thanks to capitalism!

 

Wages are set by the MARKET value; the employee has no say in it. A person working at Walmart cannot ask for the pay of a doctor.

If they can not survive without working for someone, then they work for someone. They cannot go plant some trees anywhere they want and live off of the land, since land is private property in this system.

Yes. There is the opportunity to become a member of the elite. But only a very small percentage actually become part of the elite.

 

You don't have to tell me how wages are set or determined. I know economics reasonably well to know that the ideas you are trumpeting here are baseless and the same regurgitated neo-Marxist, Luddite tripe.

 

[Shahan Araradian]

Looks like we got a Karl Polanyi protege here! The typical baseless and unsubstantiated accusations against the free market system.

LOL. These are simple facts, no need to provide any substantiation.

 

People are free to go set up a farm, live there, and make a subsistence living, 'living off the earth'.

Land is private property. The land would first need to be purchased using capital.

 

The problem with subsistence farming, as anyone who studied pre-Industrial societies knows, there are famines, low or no harvests, no rains, etc.

Socialism doesn't imply subsistence living or farming. My example was that even subsistence living is not possible when land is private property.

 

The capitalist revolution permitted man to break away from subsistence farming and allowed others to engage in specialization.

What capitalist revolution?

 

Less time can now be spent on subsistence living and more time on other utility maximizing activities. How else do you expect you have this very internet and cell phone that you are using? Thanks to capitalism!

It doesn't take capitalism to have inventions! Even if it did, after a certain threshold of technology has been created by capitalism, it would be possible to have a self-sustaining and nearly fully machine-automate closed-system socialism.

 

You don't have to tell me how wages are set or determined. I know economics reasonably well to know that the ideas you are trumpeting here are baseless and the same regurgitated neo-Marxist, Luddite tripe.

You have no idea what you're talking about .

Edited August 12, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sip]

In socialism, the useless people benefit while the more ambitious, driven, talented and harder working ones suffer. In capitalism, it's the other way around which seems to make a lot more sense to me. This whole idea of "communal entitlement" is fundamentally flawed as has been proven in practice as well many times over.

 

 

[Anonymouse]

LOL. These are simple facts, no need to provide any substantiation.

 

So when called upon to substantiate your unsubstantiated assertions, you just run away. Good to know that socialists are still the same.

 

Land is private property. The land would first need to be purchased using capital.

 

Yes, and what is your point? You save, invest, purchase. I know plenty of people who have purchased land because of savings over the years, and some who have even purchased farms.

 

 

Socialism doesn't imply subsistence living or farming.

 

No, but that is what it indirectly leads to.

 

My example was that even subsistence living is not possible when land is private property.

 

Possible, should not be confused with probable.

 

What capitalist revolution?

 

You really have no idea about economic history do you?

 

It doesn't take capitalism to have inventions!

 

No one stated this. You are implying this into my own post to have something to argue. However, it does take capitalism to have specialization.

 

Even if it did, after a certain threshold of technology has been created by capitalism, it would be possible to have a self-sustaining and nearly fully machine-automate closed-system socialism.

 

Under capitalist social property relations, people are still able to go and live in their communes and have a socialistic lifestyle (take a look at the Israeli kibbutz). Under a socialist system, you are not able to have a free market lifestyle. Therein is the paradox of all things socialism.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about .

 

Takes one to know one.

[Shahan Araradian]

So when called upon to substantiate your unsubstantiated assertions, you just run away. Good to know that socialists are still the same.

They are what they are.

 

I don't need to substantiate them, as I don't that the sky is blue. Just look.

 

Under capitalist social property relations, people are still able to go and live in their communes and have a socialistic lifestyle (take a look at the Israeli kibbutz).

No, Israel was founded on the principles of nationalistic socialism -- also known as fascism. The existence of kibbutzim was enabled by this type environment.

 

Under capitalist social property relations, people are still able to go and live in their communes

Under a socialist system, you are not able to have a free market lifestyle. Therein is the paradox of all things socialism.

Not true, there is a fine balance. Even the U.S.A. has some socialism in its economy -- for example, the socialization of the fire department and the police.

 

France and Quebec, among others, have found a good balance between private enterprise and government intervention and socialization of enterprise.

 

That's why French and Quebecers are so much more friendly and live such a higher quality of every day life; their biggest luxury is their lifestyle; many more enterprises have been socialized -- such as health care -- leading to a higher quality of life for all... Now unless you support inequality and a "class hierarchy" then you'd support more socialized enterprise in the U.S... But I know that not everyone in the world seeks quality of life to his fellow man; inequality breeds inequality -- hence, places like the U.S. (and more so places like Armenia) breed inequality proportional to the rate of existing inequality. (And greed also breeds greed...)

 

Meanwhile, in the U.S.A., those who are privileged are encouraged to completely enslave their fellow man -- beyond that of simply employing them. (Of course, all of this will backfire -- all inequality does, and especially in this age of free information -- with the fledgling class revolution in the U.S...)

 

I'm not sure if you're part of the U.S. corporate workforce, but join ANY U.S. corporation -- of some size -- and work as a rank-and-file employee; I don't think you'll like it. (Of course, you DO have the opportunity to become part of the elite -- middle management -- and I don't deny that. It's just that the "system" in the U.S. encourages one man to exploit the other, without regard -- the only regard is to profits; the "higher good" is the company's good -- and not the happiness of his employees... Oh, yeah... Don't call them "employees" but call them "owners" or "partners" as Starbucks and WalMart refer to their employees -- as do many other U.S. corps. They are masters of Disinformation! It is all part of the show to dumb-down workers, just like the queen bee does...)

 

So there are really three choices for a person caught in this predicament:

1) [the only real choice most people really have] Believe the lie, work harder, hoping for a raise

2) Become part of the elite, as the lieutenants of the capitalists -- middle managers -- and work your way to executive management, after some years you may become a capitalist in your own right.

3) Move to a more harmonious society that offers a greater balance, a quality of life not found in the U.S. Somewhere like France or Canada.

 

You really have no idea about economic history do you?

Explain the event called "capitalist revolution" and we'll find out the answer to your question.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[moi]

Before continuing this topic, I would recommend you all to check out this documentary film. It mentions almost everything you are discussing in here...capitalism, debt, social slavery, 9/11 cover-ups, the American Elite, religious myths, new world order, political manipulations throughout major wars of our time, international bankers, etc.

The film is very interesting and enlightening, but it's 2 hours long. If you have any free time, you should check it out. For those of you who get's a chance to see this documentary, I would like you to discuss about it in this topic, since it's related to what all of you have been talking about.

Enjoy!

 

Here's the link: http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

[Sip]

I will try to watch that documentary if time permits. I just wanted to point out the fact that even though the French are so much better and Canada is a much more wonderful place to live, Shahan has still made the CHOICE to live in the US.

[Yervant1]

I will try to watch that documentary if time permits. I just wanted to point out the fact that even though the French are so much better and Canada is a much more wonderful place to live, Shahan has still made the CHOICE to live in the US.

He doesn't live there he is just passing through after he gets his share of milk and honey.

[Sip]

I HIGHLY doubt he is going to leave

[Anonymouse]

They are what they are.

 

I don't need to substantiate them, as I don't that the sky is blue. Just look.

 

Then this means you cannot engage in a valid discussion without substantiating your claims, as they are full of hot air. You cannot cherry pick which you will substantiate and which you will not. When called upon, a wise debater will engage to validate his propositions. So what you are basically saying is you have no basis for the claim you made.

 

No, Israel was founded on the principles of nationalistic socialism -- also known as fascism. The existence of kibbutzim was enabled by this type environment.

 

This shows your total ahistorical approach to things. First off, Israel was found for many reasons. Trying to marginalize it and say Israel was founded on this and only this reason is ahistorical and ignores everything else that occurs in history. Second, Israel does have a market economy that operates on the profit motive and capital accumulation, and Israel to whatever extent, like most governments, recognizes private property. Therefore, it is a capitalist based system.

 

Not true, there is a fine balance. Even the U.S.A. has some socialism in its economy -- for example, the socialization of the fire department and the police.

 

This is stupid and shows your total ignorance of economic theory and history. First of all, there is no such thing as a pure free market or a pure socialist bliss. All governments to the degree that they confiscate wealth in the form of taxation and redistribute it, are socialistic. That does not mean that they have socialism. Just like the Soviet Union under Stalin, and China under Mao recognized some degree, no matter how little, of private property. That did not make them a free market or capitalist economy. And therefore, your point here is pointless and moot.

 

However, the only difference is that under these capitalist or quasi-capitalist systems like Israel, Canada, America, etc., you are able to not only have your private property, but you may also run your own business and engage in your own capital accumulation. You are also free to own cooperatives, or make a socialist living in the woods or in a commune. The government will not try to stop you. However, if you dared to try and own a private business in the Soviet Union under Stalin, or China under Mao, and you tried to engage in capital accumulation, you would be banished. Therein lies the paradox, which you have completely ignored and tried to obfuscate by pointless diversions and ignorance.

 

I'm not sure if you're part of the U.S. corporate workforce, but join ANY U.S. corporation -- of some size -- and work as a rank-and-file employee; I don't think you'll like it.

 

This is baseless. How do you know what people will like or dislike? Do you speak for everybody? And yes, I have worked under a corporation and I have liked it and got compensated well for my services.

 

And I hear you live in the U.S. Why? If you hate it so much, I would think you would leave. I'm not telling you to leave, I'm just mind boggled at the hypocrisy and paradox.

 

[Arpa]

Dear Anon//Ananaoun Mouk,

Has it ever occurred to you that you are at HyForum, not Marxo/Engelso/Lenino Forum?

Ar you an alter ego, alias, Vahe Avetia, or, Aramazt mi Arastse, Ara B.? What is your message?

How do your messages have to do with the price of apricots in Armenia?

Please elaborate.

Or, better yet….

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

 

[Anonymouse]

Dear Anon//Ananaoun Mouk,

Has it ever occurred to you that you are at HyForum, not Marxo/Engelso/Lenino Forum?

Ar you an alter ego, alias, Vahe Avetia, or, Aramazt mi Arastse, Ara B.? What is your message?

How do your messages have to do with the price of apricots in Armenia?

Please elaborate.

Or, better yet….

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

 

Oh noes! Someone doesn't like to read things he complains about but reads them anyway.

 

 

[Shahan Araradian]

I will try to watch that documentary if time permits. I just wanted to point out the fact that even though the French are so much better and Canada is a much more wonderful place to live, Shahan has still made the CHOICE to live in the US.

Sip, when I "woke up" I was in the U.S. I learned the system of the U.S... As soon as I am financially independent, I'm OUT OF HERE! The U.S. has become a hell hole for most people! Even if I'm capitalist -- a member of the power elite -- I would not stay here. There is too much suffering here of the non-elite; American society is very INhumane -- no matter WHAT the media says to the contrary. I have lived it and experienced it. This isn't "freedom". This is mass indoctrination, mass control over the population by a select few. It has become SO easy to control people in the U.S. it is unbelievable... The power elite have mastered this craft...

 

And the BIGGEST sign as to the great ILLNESS of the U.S. and its system, its "society" is that the U.S. is not even reproducing its own human capital -- it must continually import human capital from DEVELOPING nations! Go to Silicon Valley in the U.S. 95% of people -- from rank-and-file employees to middle managers and even many capitalists -- are recent imports from abroad. Why aren't "home grown Californians" flocking to the valley?

[Shahan Araradian]

Dear Anon//Ananaoun Mouk,

Has it ever occurred to you that you are at HyForum, not Marxo/Engelso/Lenino Forum?

Ar you an alter ego, alias, Vahe Avetia, or, Aramazt mi Arastse, Ara B.? What is your message?

How do your messages have to do with the price of apricots in Armenia?

Please elaborate.

Or, better yet….

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

He supports the system (known as global capitalism and one market economy) that wants to turn the Armenians of Armenia into debt slaves (via supporting corrupt politicians and getting Armenian to take up loans it cannot pay from bogus institutions such as the IMF and "World Bank") and have Armenian farmers become indentured slaves and buy Terminator seeds for their Apricots from such global corporations as Monsanto.

 

Did you know that there is a clause in the financial agreement between the IMF and the republic of Armenia to make it illegal to teach nationalism (i.e. an understanding of the national interests of the Armenian people and of Armenia) to children in public schools?

 

So not only do these innocuous vehicles carefully named the "International Monetary Fund" and "World Bank" (behind which global capitalists hide and have placed their money) seek to enslave Armenia and her population, but EVEN MORE is that they seek to paralyze FUTURE generations of Armenians so that they cannot think for the collective good, making it easy for the global power elite to build an extremely hierarchical society in Armenia wherein the power elite can sell out the rest of the Armenian population...

 

Now isn't that what the Soviet system tried to do? Did they succeed? Definitely to some extent, seeing the existing national sentiment from the Armenian SSR in the streets of Glendale...

 

What can be done? Grass-roots national public education program ala Nikol Aghbalian.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Anonymouse]

He supports the system (known as global capitalism and one market economy) that wants to turn the Armenians of Armenia into debt slaves (via supporting corrupt politicians and getting Armenian to take up loans it cannot pay from bogus institutions such as the IMF and "World Bank") and have Armenian farmers become indentured slaves and buy Terminator seeds for their Apricots from such global corporations as Monsanto.

 

 

Before you make stupid claims and assumptions it would be wise to ask me on my positions before you attribute things to me.

 

I am a supporter of global capitalism, free markets and free trade. I am not a supporter of the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and NAFTA, or any other government induced "free trade". You must understand, I like governments about as much as you like rationality and common sense, which isn't much.

[Anonymouse]

Sip, when I "woke up" I was in the U.S. I learned the system of the U.S... As soon as I am financially independent, I'm OUT OF HERE! The U.S. has become a hell hole for most people! Even if I'm capitalist -- a member of the power elite -- I would not stay here. There is too much suffering here of the non-elite; American society is very INhumane -- no matter WHAT the media says to the contrary. I have lived it and experienced it. This isn't "freedom". This is mass indoctrination, mass control over the population by a select few. It has become SO easy to control people in the U.S. it is unbelievable... The power elite have mastered this craft...

 

Jesus H. Christ on a crutch you are looney. Do you think I or any rational or sane individual believes the mainstream media? Why is it that all of a sudden everyone thinks they are oh so smart and cunning to have figured out that the media is nothing more than a propaganda tool? Jeee, I did not know you were privy to such esoteric knowledge Shahanik!

 

And the BIGGEST sign as to the great ILLNESS of the U.S. and its system, its "society" is that the U.S. is not even reproducing its own human capital -- it must continually import human capital from DEVELOPING nations! Go to Silicon Valley in the U.S. 95% of people -- from rank-and-file employees to middle managers and even many capitalists -- are recent imports from abroad. Why aren't "home grown Californians" flocking to the valley?

 

Ever heard of the theory of comparative advantage? If someone from India or China or Japan can make better cars at cheaper costs, then the market will readjust to reflect that. Silicon Valley is no exception.

 

[Shahan Araradian]

Jesus H. Christ on a crutch you are looney. Do you think I or any rational or sane individual believes the mainstream media? Why is it that all of a sudden everyone thinks they are oh so smart and cunning to have figured out that the media is nothing more than a propaganda tool? Jeee, I did not know you were privy to such esoteric knowledge Shahanik!

By definition a sane and conscious individual does not believe the mainstream media. The problem is how mainstream media creates UNconscious and DEpoliticized individuals at a massive scale.

 

Keep your personal attacks to yourself; I don't think you'd like it if I turned the tables on you either.

 

Ever heard of the theory of comparative advantage? If someone from India or China or Japan can make better cars at cheaper costs, then the market will readjust to reflect that. Silicon Valley is no exception.

The comparative advantage in this case is the education system of India that is producing these scientists and engineers and business people who are filling in the jobs and market opportunities that home-grown Americans are not...

 

This is a reflection of the failure of the US public education system (K-12) as well as US society -- a creation of the corporate-owned media whose owners (the power elite) seek to create a dumb and depoliticized population (a population that is 1. highly specialized technically, 2. is bound by debt-slavery and therefore lives in FEAR and has not much choice in life [the primary means of this is the 30 year home mortgage on a very inflated home price], 3. works well and takes orders well, 4. cannot organize itself). It doesn't matter to them, because they can import human capital as needed from abroad... Why do you think Bill Gates or Larry Ellison seek to hire Indians and other foreigners on H1B visas?

Edited August 15, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

I am a supporter of global capitalism, free markets and free trade. I am not a supporter of the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and NAFTA, or any other government induced "free trade". You must understand, I like governments about as much as you like rationality and common sense, which isn't much.

When you have a few more years of experience in the American corporate world and have more exposure to the ruling elite, you will understand that the government and corporation are the SAME people! One reinforces the other in the U.S., and the third leg is the military...

 

In the U.S.A., government laws are created by the power elite to maintain their OWN wealth and power. Therefore, all of your goals -- global capitalism, free markets and free trade -- are ENABLED by the government.

 

I recommend you read the book "The Power Elite" by Mills.

[Anonymouse]

When you have a few more years of experience in the American corporate world and have more exposure to the ruling elite, you will understand that the government and corporation are the SAME people! One reinforces the other in the U.S., and the third leg is the military...

 

In the U.S.A., government laws are created by the power elite to maintain their OWN wealth and power. Therefore, all of your goals -- global capitalism, free markets and free trade -- are ENABLED by the government.

 

I recommend you read the book "The Power Elite" by Mills.

 

Ugh, my little child, where were you when I was sifting through conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory, from The Power Elite, to Behold a Pale Horse, to Rule by Secrecy, hell, even as looney as David Icke. The Power Elite is a classic no doubt, and here are some nice websites to boot.

 

www.rense.com

www.infowars.com

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com

 

You know, you act like you know all these esoteric things that no one else does and only you "see the truth" like Neo in Matrix, but you're way too into yourself, darling.

[Shahan Araradian]

In socialism, the useless people benefit while the more ambitious, driven, talented and harder working ones suffer. In capitalism, it's the other way around which seems to make a lot more sense to me. This whole idea of "communal entitlement" is fundamentally flawed as has been proven in practice as well many times over.

That is because the necessary threshold of technology has not yet been created. Capitalism is still creating it...

 

Once it is complete, the three technologies -- Universal AI, molecular manufacturing, and free energy -- will irreversible change human social interaction. Once created, the ONLY stable form of human existence would be socialism (as individuals and small groups would be armed with extremely powerful weapons that dwarf anything seen during the 20th century...). That's why it's important that humanity today reduces all violences -- especially unnecessary ones such as the Zionist and corporate wars in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan and possibly Syria and Iran. Because all of the bad karma being spread by Zionists and the power elite will with very high certainty come back to bite them.

 

Please have a quick read of Bill Joy's article in Wired magazine, "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us".

Edited August 15, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Anonymouse]

By definition a sane and conscious individual does not believe the mainstream media. The problem is how mainstream media creates UNconscious and DEpoliticized individuals at a massive scale.

 

Keep your personal attacks to yourself; I don't think you'd like it if I turned the tables on you either.

 

The comparative advantage in this case is the education system of India that is producing these scientists and engineers and business people who are filling in the jobs and market opportunities that home-grown Americans are not...

 

This is a reflection of the failure of the US public education system (K-12) as well as US society -- a creation of the corporate-owned media whose owners (the power elite) seek to create a dumb and depoliticized population (a population that is 1. highly specialized technically, 2. is bound by debt-slavery and therefore lives in FEAR and has not much choice in life [the primary means of this is the 30 year home mortgage on a very inflated home price], 3. works well and takes orders well, 4. cannot organize itself). It doesn't matter to them, because they can import human capital as needed from abroad... Why do you think Bill Gates or Larry Ellison seek to hire Indians and other foreigners on H1B visas?

 

Public education by default fails because it is public. I recommend you read criticisms of public choice and public theory.

 

Comparative advantage has everything to do with why Japanese make better cars and Americans don't. Why Indians are all in IT and Americans aren't. Why China saves and invests and American borrows and spends, spends, spends into its recession and demise.

 

Criticisms are all well taken and apt, however, you blame the free market for what is initially a government created mess. People traded long before governments came to exist, and people will do so in the future, when governments dissolve.

[Shahan Araradian]

Ugh, my little child, where were you when I was sifting through conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory, from The Power Elite, to Behold a Pale Horse, to Rule by Secrecy, hell, even as looney as David Icke. The Power Elite is a classic no doubt, and here are some nice websites to boot.

 

www.rense.com

www.infowars.com

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com

 

You know, you act like you know all these esoteric things that no one else does and only you "see the truth" like Neo in Matrix, but you're way too into yourself, darling.

Typical anonymouse: personal attacks, and not sticking to the issues at hand.