Chutag (Jutak)

[Harut]

maybe it has something to do with "jit" (neck)??

[MosJan]

iys mek@ hetaqrqir e.

[Twilight Bark]

Any opinions on the etymology of the word "chutag" or "jutak"?

[Twilight Bark]

I was hoping to get some opinions before I posted mine, which is just a speculation.

 

There is a w <--> ch transformation in Armenian, which explains the indo-european origin of some words. For example, water in English, wata in Hittite, but the almost unrecognizable chur in Armenian. Work back from chut- to wut- in Old English (Norse etc.), and you get wood-. As for -ag, it is a common suffix in Armenian nouns, (e.g. navag, bnag, kntag) often describing objects with curved contours (I don't off-hand know how strongly they are correlated though). Anyway, it seems to me chutag in its early days must have meant something like "wooden, curved thingy"

 

I would be delighted to hear different takes on it.

[Boghos]

TB,

 

As you can appreciate morphological transformations are on of the trickiest subjects in Philology. Even in languages such as Portuguese with well documented and recent transformations we sometimes fall into some incredible traps.

 

At this time I can't offer a better guess than yours but I will give it a try in a few days.

[Arpa]

[QB]TB,


Let us assume the first syllable stands for "twin", "jut/juxt/zuyk", then all that remains is the second syllable, "ak/ag".

The first and the obvious would be "ak" as in "ach(k)", eye. Also consider the kinship of "eye", "oeil" etc.
There is no corroboration to the fact, not even in the history of the violin that the slits would suggest the shape of an eye. Not to forget that "ak", as in eye is also used to describe the knots (eyes) on wood. Could it be that it was named beacuse it looked like a face with "twin eyes"?

If we go even further we will also find out that the Proto Indo European "ag/ago" has changed into "adz" in modern Armenian, that is "adz" as in "adzel". Among many uses of the word, such as dzou adzel, to cut (hair/adzilel) etc. one of the most common uses is nvag-adzel, to play music. Could it be that the violin had only two srtings originally therefore "jut-adz/jut-ag" to mean twin strings. There may be evidence to this in neighboring languages, consider "chifte-telli" etc.

The violin is a relatively modern instrument, according to one source it was introduced to Europe by the Arabs during the X-XII c. This brings us to the possible mother of the "jutak", i.e. the kamancha. This subject has also been discussed before, among the many interpretations, my conclusion has been that it is of Chinese origin,, kam-an-cha. Even in modern Chinese "kam" stands for (musical) instrument as the piano is known as gong-kam. Many languages call the violin "kaman/kemani" or some variation thereof. Perhaps somebody can look up its etymology.

[Twilight Bark]

It may be recent in Europe. But it is entirely possible that an instrument similar to it has existed (and been named) from very early times in the area where Armenians lived.

[Harut]

well, if we have to give just guesses then i think it can mean "jukht ak". meaning two wheels toghether. you know, it has two round parts.

or it can come from "jit" (neck).

[ThornyRose]

No, the violin's ancestor DID exist in Anatolia (but more to the whereabouts of Mesopotamia, I think)... I heard this from the lecturer of the course, "History of Music" or something that I took last year... Great guy, by the way. He followed archaeologists around and found things delightful for him.

 

One funny story of his included a cuneiform tablet somewhere. They had deciphered/read the original message at the top (addressing some governor, etc.), but they hadn't been able to figure out what the patterns and marks at the bottom of the tablet were. A few months later, this lecturer gets called back by his archaeologist friend and is told that the "patterns" were "scribbles" which the secretary had written, for the messenger to pass on to his mother who was also in the town of destination: "And while you're over there, tell my mother, 'Mom, I'll be home by the next blah blah blah, I want my favourite dish of blah blah blah, too, love and kisses, etc.' " LOL... Something like that. Not everyone was able to read, so nobody would bother and notice the favour the messenger was doing for his secretary friend. LOL...

[Boghos]

Indeed, and as with most other things, it was probably invented by Armenians, like the TV


[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[SAS]

Arpa,

 

shat sramit bacatrutyun e, juxtak->jutak ancum@,yete ushadrutyn

 

chdardznenq ayn bani vra, vor "juxTak" grvum e "T"-ov isk "juTHak" "TH"-ov...

 

Juthakn el ir "demqin" uni yerku achQ...

 

Inch verabervum e, "adzilel"( atsilel), apa, indz tvum e, ayn kazmvats e

 

zhxtakan a + tsil(sprout, shoot, young growth)+ el = tsil@ hanel( ktrel).

 

Mazn el e tslum, che?...

_____________________________________________

 

SAS

 

H.G. Isk yete ayspisi bacatrutyun tal

 

Juthak = ju + thak = ju + thakel = jute + thakel:

 

Yev iskapes, juthakahar@ nvagelu hamar "thakum" e juthakin:

 

Sa, iharke, gitakan bacatrutyun chi, bayc hamapatasxanum e juthak nvagelu dzevin:

 

"Ak"-n uni nayev "sprinq", "source" nshanakutyun@( "aghbyuri ak", "geti ak" )etc.

 

Piano = dashnak = dashn + ak = dashnutyan(harmoniayi ) akunq = spring of harmony:

[Arpa]

SAS,
Nmanapes, ko ditoghutyunnnern al nuynkan sramit en.
Nahusht gitenk or "ak", aravel yev@s ir haytni nshanakutyunerrin, nayev k@ gordzatzvi ibr, "ak/agbyur/spring" yev "ak/gem/gohar" yvln. Isk inch veraberi "adzilel", ayo, kazmvatz e "a" zhxtakan naxadzantov yev "dzlil/bousnil".

Ko amenahetakrkir tesutyun@ the "juthak"@ grvoum e mer "tho" tarov yev voch the "tyun"ov inchpes "juxt" chapazantz karevor e. "tho" gir@ steghtzvatz er voch the mez charcharelou, na manavand arevmtahayerin, ayl ayn sharadrvatz er ibrev Hunakan "theta"in hamapatasxan, inchpes Thomas, Thaddeus etc. Aynpes e yerevum the mi zhamank mer lezvin kayin dzayner or aysor koratz en, "th" inchpes Angleren "THeory". Avelord @llaov mi zhamank Hayeren@ nuyisk ounetzadz e gir nman Angleren "w"i, ayn e "hyun/u" gir@. Barer inchpes, "kou/kov/gov" kam "hau/hav" mi zhamank "kaw" yev "haw" hnchumn ouneyin. Im kaskatzn ayn e the menk ays dzayner@ koruzel enk Parskereni ev Trkerini azdetzuyan tak, ayd erkou lezunern al "w"i dzayn@ chounen. Ayspes, minj menk aysor "arouak"@ piti kartank ibr "arvak", "thvabanutyun" yvln, aydpes k@ thwi the mi zhamank anonk petk er hnchweyin ibr "arwak" yev "thwabanutyun".

Isk inch veraberi "juthak"in goutze mi or piti gtnenk anor armat@. Im aghbyurne@ metzav masamb Ajariann e, theyev mer amenakataryal aghbyur@, intz anypes k@ thwi the, manavand mer nerka gitutyamb yev noranor aghbyurnerov ayd thangarzhek glukh gordzotz@ karogh e mi kich @ndlaynvel yev barenorogwel.
Isk inch veraberi "thakel", harvatzel, jutak@ ayn nwakaranneren e vor nwazakuyn thakman endarkvi, larer@ chen thakvum ayl paypayvum (agheghov).

Thank you for your comments they woke my sleeping brain cells.

H.G Ajarian@ vochinch k@se juthakin masin baci the ayn mi larayin nwkaran e.

[MosJan]

chgitem vorqanov ogtakar klini , sakayn naytum em indz mot yerats HAykakan gortsikneri anvanumnerin yev hetaqrqirn iyn e vor mi qani gortsikner kan voronts mer naxnahayrer@ anvanel en Tutak, hetaqrqir e, duduki naxninerits mekin anvanum eyin tutak nayev Sring`in ( bluel ) D@lul`in yev Hovivneri ogtagortsats tsirani yev kam metarya shviner@ kam shvian@man gortsikner anvanel en tutak,inchpes nayev qyamanin,

jutakin nuynpes anvanel en tutak, chgitem inchu, yerevi dziyn@ k@rknor yev kam verartadror, kam yergichi dziyn@ kam srty xosk@ asor ~~~ gortsikner@ anvanvel en tutak ??

 

Hishum em Vartanes Papazyan ( derasan Papazyani het kap chuni) grats 3rd hator mej kar LaRayin gortsikneri masin bajin ur na nerkaystnum er mi qani larayin gortsikner, naxkiner@ kendanu Ariqits eyin patrastvats larer@. yev na iydter n@karagrel e Jutakan@man mi gortsik anvanelov tutak. yete iharke hishorutyus chi davajanum..

 

 

mer Gusan Jivan@ ogtagortsum er Qyamani (Qyamanchayi n@man Jutakin) Vartanes Papazyan@ sran nuynpes anvanum er tutak, yerevi tutak@..

 

patasxan@ chgitem, sakayn mtastum em vor mi xumb gortsikner anvanvel en tutak, inchpes gusan@ yergeluts qyamanin kam shvin gusani bareri n@man artahaytel ( hnchetsrel e kam krkrnel tutaki pes yerashtutyamb),

 

karoratsa batsatrel ?? te xarnel em amen inch irar.

[MosJan]

HArout Jit@ inch lezvona ???

[Harut]

Mos jan, jit@ piti vor hayeren lini. "j" chi bayts, "jh" a, chinchpes "jutik".

 

Zohrabi "Jitin Partq@" kardatsel es?

 

kam el es shutaseluk@ lsel es?

 

"tsit@ tsari jmban tserin,

tsti jti jit@ tsur"

 

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Harut ]

[MosJan]

"tsit@ tsari jmban tserin,

ts@ti j@ti jit@ tsur"

[MosJan]

iy hima hishetsy ...

[MosJan]

yev mek urish varkats, yete ushgadrutyun darstneq gortsiqneri anunerin orinak Shvi - vori dziyn@ shvotsi dziyn e ( shvots a hanum ) da kartses gortsiki dziyni batsatrutyun lini kam Duduk vori dziyn@ Duoooo duoo e kam, zurnan vor zil dziayn uni. hnaravor e vro urraki jutaki anun@ n@ra dziyni mimikn e kam batsatrutyun@? inch kaseq.?.

[Arpa]

Interestng observation.
This is a well known phenomenon known as onomatopoeia, from the Greek "onoma"=name, noun and "poeia"= to make, i.e. words based on sounds. Many words be they nouns or verbs fall in this category most commonly names of musical instruments as you mention above, add to that tzntzgha, tar, dmbuk, zurna amd many more. This is universal. Consider cymbal, drum, trumpet etc.
Yes, even tsit and chnchghuk follow this rule.
This phenomenon is known as "bnadzayn" (nature sound) in Armenian.

As to juthak???

[MosJan]

Jutak de jutakn el j@vvots a j@szv@zots hanum yerevi Juvik kam j@vj@vik dneyin anun@ inchpes asetsir Bnadziyn bavakanin hnaravor e sa,

yev yekek chmoranank mek HAykakan BArbarner@ ur amen barbar tekuz yev n@man sakayn tarber artasanutyan dzev unen.

 

yev nayev otaryerkya bareki ogtagortsum@, chnayats vro verchin 100 tarva mej Sksyal Mer Komitasits yev sharunakvats ma qani Hay masnagetneri vorosh gortsikner veranvanvel en yev nor kam kin zut Haykakan nauner statsel.

 

sakayn Bnadziyni varkats@ indz aveli e hetaqrqrum, inchpes asetsir ArpaJan - Zangak, z@eng dziyn e hanum kam T@mbuk vor@ t@mb t@mbots e hanum, kam Shvi vor Shvum e, kam B@lule ( Sring ) vor buuuu kam bvoots e hanum,

brb

[Arpa]

Haykakan gavarbarbarner@ metz azdetzutyun unin lezvin vra, aynkan vor shat ankam ayd barbarnerin mej kareli e gtnel armatner.

Ko tesutyunner@ bolorn al iravi en.

Yegek khaghank.
Kani bnadzayn barer karogh enk gtnel?

Sring@ yerevi bun prigyakan (Phrygian)bar e yeghadz yete nuynisk Hunareni janabarhov. Ayo bnadzayn bar e baytz tes te our k@ tani mez. Ayt gortziki mijotzav "sring" dartzatz e "syringe" aysinkn - khokhovak, tube as in reed, yegheg. Ibr bzhshkakan gortzik ayd bar@ k'ogtagordzvi zanazan lezuneri mej, syringe, sh@r@nka etc. degh srskelik ararka.

Which will bring us to
Vahakni Tzound@ by Khorenatzi

Yerkner erkin, erkner erkir,
Erkner yev tzovn tzirani.
Erkni tzovoun ouner ev zkarmrikn eghegnik.

@nd yeghegan pogh tzoukh yelaner,
@nd eghegan pogh botz elaner,
Ev i botzvouyn vazer khartyash patanekik.

Na hour her ouner,
Botz ouner morous,
Ev achkounkn eyin aregakounk.

This reminds us of Daniel Varouzhan's Dzon where he paraphrases so;

Eghegnya grchov ergetzi parker
Kezi @ntza, im Hayrenik....
.....
@nd eghekan pogh luys elaner....

Further down;
@nd eghekan pogh voghb elaner, and further-@nd eghegan pogh sirt@s elaner etc.

This phenomenon of Vahakn being born of the reed marsh is repeated in many other peoples' myhtology be it Greek or else, even the Biblical Moses succumbs to it as he is discovered among the reeds.

[MosJan]

Arpajan ,sa bavakanin hetaqrqir meknabanutyun kapvats sringi het.

 

Sring@ uni melamardzot + Tav + Qami + Qartsrutyun, iys gortsiq@ patrastvel e naxkinum Yeregits ( Ramis) yev darer iver yerel e Haykakan yerashtakan forklyori mej, nuynisk mer Komitas@ gri e arel iys gortsiki 3 tesakner picol -D-, Alto -A-, tenor -G-, nerkanyums iys gortsik@ patrastvum e paytits yev kan aveli qan 7 tarber sringner, sakayn himnakan 3@ komitasi chapserov en.

mer HAykakan Sringi pes goritsk unen nayev Parsikner@, bavakanin hnchun gortsik e , unen 2 tesak #1 mek yeregits patrastvats #2 2 yeregnerits vorosh parskakan gavarnerum anvanum en NAY, yevorpayum ruminatsiner@ yev bulgaratsiner@ unen anvanum en KhavaL ( vstah chem anun@) bayst shat mets ter uni n@ranst azgayin folklyorum. yerevum e shervertsy nyutits, Menq Hayer@s unenq nayev 3 urish HAykakan Gortsikner voronq naxkinum patrastvel en Yeregits, Duduk@, Shvin, pakun,

http://www.mksduduks.com/Arm-music-ins/Duduk/duduk-pics/2/MVC-004F.JPG

iys n@kari dzaxits arajin gortsik@ mer iysorva duduki "naxnin" iyspisin e yerel mer duduk@ heto jamanaki @ndhatskum popoxvel e.

http://www.mksduduks.com/Arm-music-ins/Shvi/one-piece-shvi.jpg

inchpes tesnum e s shvin nuynpes minch iysor yeregist e patrastvum,

 

iys hajord n@kari dzax kormi 11gortsikner@ sringner en, tsavoq srty chunem sringi original n@kar@, bayst ashxatum em patrastel mek hat..

http://www.mksduduks.com/Arm-music-ins/Duduk/Duduks-main/Duduks-By-Ruben/rr-gorts.jpg

tarineri @ndhatskum poxvel e voch miyayn gortsikneri tesq@ iyl nayev anuner@, sringin anvanum en bluel kam Sring kam Dlule.

 

husov mek or gtnenq Jutaki Anvanman patasxan@, hameniyn deps indz shat e hetaqrqrum...

 

Movses

[SAS]

Arpa( the?...Arpha ),

 

yes hamozvats chem, vor "TH" hnchyun chkar hayerenum, yerb Mesrop Mashtoc@ steghtsec Hayoc Grer@:

 

Isk inchu Mashtoc@ chsteghtsec ... "F" tar@?

 

Qani vor hayerenum chkar hamapatasxan hnchyun@...

 

ANXTIR bolor hayeren barer@, vortegh ka "F" tar@... POXARVATS barer en...

 

Bnik haykakan voch mi ARMAT chka, vortegh lini "F" hnchyun@...

 

Hayereni vra shat aveli mets azdecutyun e toghel parskeren@, qan te hunaren@( chmorananq, vor hayeren armatakan barei kesic avelin parskakan tsagum unen ), isk parskerenum kar yev ka MAQUR "F" hnchyun@:

 

Nuyn hajoghutyamb Mashtoc@ karogh er steghtsel nayev "F" tar@, bayc charec... , vorovhetev @ntrats GITAKAN skzbunqi hamadzyn, amen mi hnchyun petq e unenar ir nish-tar@...

 

Inchpes kareli er steghtsel tar, yerb chkar...hnchyun?

 

Minchev "F" tari mtcnel@, "F" hnchyun@ "thargmavum" er kam "H" kam el "PH"...

 

Mithe "miTHe" bar@ Mashtoci zhamanak hnchum er..."miTe" kam "miDe"?:

 

Kaskatsum em...

 

Inch verabervum e "vyun" hnchyunin, apa, havanabar, hayeren lezun ayn "korcrel" e...

 

Astvats tar, vor miayn hnchyun korcrats lineinq...

______

 

SAS

[Arpa]

Originally posted by MosJan:

[QB]Arpajan ,sa bavakanin hetaqrqir meknabanutyun kapvats sringi het.

 

"Amot kez mossy..."

Voch! Apres du!

Hoyakap patkerner.

Amot pit lini t(h)e chsharounakes.

 

Khawal@ Araberen e. Dshbakhdabar lav Araberen bararan chounem

 

BTW. Inchou karogh chenk hayeren grel? Armenian NLS kam KDWin fonterov.

[Arpa]

Arpa, voch Arpha. Mi or anor masin k@ grem.

Irav e vor menk voch gir@ ouneyink yev voch al zayn@ F in hamapataskhan. Ays patjarov er
vor Latineren kam Hunaren "ph" darnar "p" (pyur)inchpes pharos-paros, philsophy-pilisopa. Inch vor Araberenitz er, i.e. "fil" darnar pigh, elephant(Yes arden bazatretsi te inchou L darna GH)

Irav e, inchpes du arden asir te inch vor F dzayn oune pokh arnvadz e medzav masamb Parskerene. Asor lavaguyn orinak@ piti @lla fereshteh=hreshtak, yev bazoum ourishner. F gir@ yev dzayne H-i darnal@ hatouk cher Parskereni miyayn, teyev ays hajord orinak@ piti pataskhane erkousin al. Parskeren "peder"-Latineren "fater" "hayr" k@ darna, i.e. F to H. Isk inch veraberi T yev Y, ays haytni e ourish tegher, inchpes "mater-mayr".

Menk F-in voch gir@ yev voch al dzayn@ ouneyink Mesropi orov. Ayd nermoudzetz XI daroun erb karig@ @zgatzink grel Fransa yev ourish Fransakan barer. Araspel@ kase te Kilikian tagavorin doustr@ Flora piti anwanwer yev F giri karik kar. (Jisht patmutyun@ k@ gtnem mi or). Nuyn zhamanak menk vordegretzink O, ayt ourish patmutyun.

SAS. I think you misread my note. I did not say we did not have the sound for TH during Mashtotz time, on the contrary, my point was that, even though we arbitrarily pronounce the THO as T today during and before Mashtotz time we did have the sound fot TH hence the resason for need of the letter "TO/THO". Nowadays the letter is just another sound of T except in orthography. It is possible that wherever we use the TO the original pronunciation should have been TH, i.e. Tovmas should be Thovmas and Torgom-Thorgom etc. And, why not, mite-mithe.