Western? Eastern? Whatta I Do??

[Guest]

All my life, I've wanted to be able to speak Armenian. Now that I have a son I want us both to speak it. Here's my problem:

 

-My wife is odar and thus doesn't speak it

-My mom only speaks the Dikranegertsi dialect

-My grandma speaks Dikranegertsi, Western and "Church" Armenian

-I live in Glendale where Eastern/Russian Armenian prevails. It's so different that my grandmother cannot follow the language on the Armenian Channel.

 

Ugh! It's either communicate within my family and no one else in Glendale, or vice versa.

 

Maybe we should all just learn Spanish!!

 

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 07, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 07, 2000).]

[Guest]

Dear friend!

The fact that you do want to speak Armenian, is everything.

follow to another topic "Armenian identity. who is Armenian?"

rgrds

Ararat

[Guest]

Dear Pilafhead, I would just learn the dialect that you are surrounded with, in your case the Eastern dialect. Thus you will be able to practice with people. The problem is that most of the books and cassettes out there for learning Armenian are geared toward the Western Dialect. Good Luck!

[Guest]

Dear Pilafhead,

 

First of all congratulations on your nickname.

 

Very funny indeed. I don´t think it matters much if you learn Eastern or Western, my view is that they are reasonably interchangeable, unless spoken by very young strongly Russian influenced recent immigrants. Good luck in whatever path you choose.

[Guest]

Guys,

 

I can speak and understand without problems both Eastern and Western Armenian, and think the differences, when spoken on both sides by people respecting our language, are not really too significant. I think anybody who is really proficient with the Western Armenian, can completely understand those who speak educated Eastern Armenian.

 

As much as I feel pain for the contamination of the Eastern Armenian by our young people, I don't think it is resulted from the Russian influence. I know perfect Russian, but never mix the two languages.

 

When I hear some of our young Eastern Armenians speak that so-called contemporary Armenian, even occasionally in this forum, I feel like someone is stabbing a knife in my heart. Eastern Armenian is perfectly clean, beautiful and self-sufficient language. Its contamination I think is not due to the Russian influence, but is rather a social and class phenomenon.

 

I can assure you that if the same people would've spoken Russian, you would've liked to close your ears, equally.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 08, 2000).]

[Guest]

Hello

 

Pilafhead! HA HA HA HA!!! I havent laughed so much in ages! I'm cracking up and my side hurts

 

Do whatever you feel is right for you. I take it you are Hye, right? Then It is great to learn.

 

But personally if I were you learn any dialect you can possibly get your hands on first, then you can learn em ALL later

OR ask around for advice which dialect is recommended to learn fist so that you can learn all other dialects easier. I shoudlnt worry too much about using the one from your origins first, (unless you can find it easily of course)

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazza:
Hello

Pilafhead! HA HA HA HA!!! I havent laughed so much in ages! I'm cracking up and my side hurts

Do whatever you feel is right for you. I take it you are Hye, right? Then It is great to learn.

B]

---

Thanks for the complement! Actually my dad is Italian, but I was COMPLETELY raised by my Armenian side. Therefore, all my life I have considered myself a proud Armenian with a capital "A". The most ironic thing is that I care about Hye culture more than 99% of my full-blooded relatives.

My grandparents taught my mom and her brothers Dikranegertsi, but the next generation of us weren't completely taught. Funny thing is, the main reason my grandmother can read and write "proper" Armenian is because she went to school for it! She was born in New Jersey in 1920 and her parents only spoke Dikranegertsi and turkish in the house.

I agree with MJ that Eastern Armenian, when spoken properly, is a beautiful language. Western Armenian does not fully accentuate the differences in some of the similar-sounding letters.

Mike (Pilafhead)

[Guest]

In my view each of the major dialects - Eastern and Western have two beautiful representatives - Bolsahay and Yerevanian. I admire both of them, and I think both of them are developed to a level of perfection.

However, there are dozens of provincial dialects filling the space between these two, and beyond them. Each regional dialect has had different influences, and it is natural. But the mentioned two are the ones, which have been the carriers of Armenian written language, and to me are the standards.

 

When I hear the subcategories of the western category of Armenian language, in most of the cases they generate resentment similar to those in the eastern category.

 

In the past, I have tried to open a dialog on Armenian language, trying to support the arguments using samples of Armenian poetry as evidences of the beauty of both Bolsahay and Yerevanian versions, but the subject has not been much supported.

 

As it pertains to the question which version to study, I think this question is similar to the one which version of English to study - Oxford or American. To me the answer is Colloquial English.

 

To me both are fine. But we don't make such decisions based on the Tennesseeian English or worse, Jamaican English. In either case, I think the criterion might be something like Shakespearian English or Hemingwaian, for example.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 09, 2000).]

[Guest]

That is SO cool.

The funny thing actually is is thatI have met a lot of BIOLOGICALLY 100 percent armenians. But in mind and heart, the might as be 0 percent! Then you meet SOME, that say, oh well, mixed people are odars, mixed people dont know their culture and heritage if they dont live in armenia/go to armenian/schools/marry armenians/hang around only with armenians, etc,etc. That is so untrue. What actually matters, as you say, is whether you care about your Hye people.

 

Learn Spanish or Armenian? East or west? the answer, my friend, is both! But Armenian first

 

I am wondering; you say your grandmother went to proper school, is thee any schools local to you also, but part time (say, weekends) for you and your kids to go to?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazza:

I am wondering; you say your grandmother went to proper school, is thee any schools local to you also, but part time (say, weekends) for you and your kids to go to?

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Yes, I am fortunate enough to live in Glendale where there are a zillion schools for children, but not sure about adults. A couple of the local community colleges offer Armenian, but one BIG problem is Armenian-speaking freshmen who enrole simply for an easy pass. As a senior in university, I enrolled in an Armenian class but I ended up dropping it exactly for that reason--the teacher couldn't control a class full of immature kids who probably knew the language better than her!


Ideally I'd like to go to class with my son (who's now 4 1/2), but I don't think they'd allow me into a children's Saturday Armenian school. Maybe if I slouch and wear a Limp Bizkit shirt, I could fool 'em.

[Guest]

OOh!

 

That sounds like the greek, turkish and spanish GCSE and A Level classes at school!

 

Oh, I dunno. Perhaps you can fool them. Remeber your Pokemon cards or they wont sit with you!

[Guest]

MJ, methinks Shakespearean English to be a bit passe! LOL!

 

As for the introductory level courses at Community Colleges, it isn't much better with graduate level courses at a university, with adults!

 

Pilafhead, just learn Armenian from whoever, even if you come up with a Hybrid dialect of your, that's ok. I speak a weird Hybrid of Barskahay with a smattering of Thachkahay phrases (pan mega?). This is because my maternal grandmother's side are Thachkahay originally, so they still use a lot of that dialect. For instance we use "akra" instead of "atam" for tooth. Plus, when I lived in Montebello in the 80s, it was primarily composed of Lipanahays, now it is almost exclusively Hayastansi and Rusahays.

 

Whatever, we need to speak Armenian!

[Guest]

Hi FasriSteve!

 

LOOOOLL! I think you'd mean "english Literature" and yes, that is PRETTY passe as passe goes.

 

As for the dialects u speak: I fdidnt even undertand a word of that!

 

I have got an idea. You understand loads of it dont you? Well, I say your sysnonyms bit which was really good. Mabye you can post us little mini lessons, like how to say elementary sentences and words (and Pilaf head and i will actually understand the stuff flinging between forum members

[Guest]

OOps! Sorry. I thought you meant Shakespearean English at MY old school being passe which it is,(instead of pilafheads) and then I said "i think you mean English Literature", Thats why i said it like that! Sorry....

[Guest]

Pilafhead I had to think about it, but in my opinion, cultural herritage is very important.

Language has primarily the function of communication instrument, but in the USA it is English. Another thing is cultural herritage, your cultural herritage is West-Armenian, so in this respect preserving the West-Armenian language helps to keep your West-Armenian cultural herritage.

[Guest]

Steve,

 

Perhaps you are right But I am sure you know what I meant.

[Guest]

Kazza jan,

 

"Barskahay" means Iranian Armenian. The Armenian we speak is heavily coated with Farsi words. For instance we think nothing of say "Lav bas" (bas is enough in Farsi), and constantly use words like "masalan" "taghriban" which might really be Arabic with a Persian accent.

 

Thachkahayeren is what we in my family(I think wrongly)call the Western Dialect. Literally Thachkastan means "Turkey." Basically anyone from Turkey, Greece, the Arab World and Bulgaria seem to speak this dialect.

 

As for me teaching you guys Armenians, Ill try, that's very sweet of you, but poor things! My Armenian is more like "Farmenian"( Farsi-Armenian, ha!) I actually speak Farsi much better than Armenian, and find it to be much easier, it just rolls off the tongue better than Armenian.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Iranyar:
Pilafhead I had to think about it, but in my opinion, cultural herritage is very important.
Language has primarily the function of communication instrument, but in the USA it is English. Another thing is cultural herritage, your cultural herritage is West-Armenian, so in this respect preserving the West-Armenian language helps to keep your West-Armenian cultural herritage.

---

Along that train of thought, I'd REALLY like to continue the Dikranegertsi dialect, but it is so archaic that the best I can hope for is to preserve (and eventually perform) songs in the dialect. Plus, I am convinced my family has modified the dialect beyond recognition over the years.

Besides the vowels being long, alot of the words are very different. The only example that comes to mind offhand is "juju" instead of "trchun" for bird.

[Guest]

Dear pilafhead,

 

very funny that Juju! because in my dialect Juju is chicken, Juje is in good persian, so Juju is neither Georgian nor Turkic, very interesting that also in Anatolia they have the same word. My suggestion is to gather people and help each other to preserve your dialect, it is very valuable. Iranian cultural herritage institute usually offers financial and technical support in this respect of preserving languages.However it was a dialect spoken in Anatolia, maybe they also offer support.

 

Half-Breed jan, Armenian of Transcaucasia and Armenian of Iran have been nearly the same (as you see that the poems of Sayat Nova sound more Parskahay than Hayastantsi !) but under the soviets they intentionally changed the words. My teacher of Armenian language says that Parskahay Armenian is more archaic than modern Hayastantsi Armenian.

[Guest]

Iranyar,

 

I think your teacher of Armenian is not well informed. Under the Soviets the only thing that has been changed has been the phonetics of the written language, and even that in a very slight manner. As far as the Barskahay vs. Hayastantsi Armenians are concerned, there are no differences between them beyond the phonetics, and the intonation of the speech. Barskahay is Eastern Armenian dialect, or more specifically, it is the same as Yerevanian.

 

No words have been changed under the Soviets, but in fact the language has been cleaned from foreign words. The fact that some Russian words are being used has not been a policy, but just some Hayastantsi didn’t bother about the purity of their language, as much as many Western Armenians behave the same way. In fact the Soviet Armenian academic and some state organizations have been fighting for the purity of the language, at least in the last 30 years.

 

Juju is not an Armenian word. There are a lot of borrowed words in the current Armenian language. The usage of that and similar words is much similar to the word "builchit" in this forum. It is not because there are no analogs in Armenian, but because of the usage of these words by”grandmothers.” These things have happened in all sides of the fence. I consider them to be manifestations of lack of respect or consciousness towards the Armenian language.

 

 

I don’t understand why would someone studying Armenian today want to study a non-mainstream dialect? For the sake of what?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 11, 2000).]

[Guest]

Farsi jan

 

Oh i see what you mean about Barkashay and Thack now!

 

He hee! Farmenian! Well you can always teach us that! But i suppose it rolls of the tounge more with you because you grew up in Iran , and learnt it from very young whereas Armenian to you is a bit a secondary language. Your first language is always the one which you think the best in. Also: did you learn Farsi when you were under 7? What ever you learn or take in up until that age is said to be the things which feature the most strongly in your syche . After that everything is secondary.

 

By the way: you still didnt answer my question! What is your armenian surname?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
I don’t understand why would someone studying Armenian today want to study a non-mainstream dialect? For the sake of what?
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 11, 2000).]

---

The reason would be as a family tradition.

But you're right about this. It's probably best to learn a mainstream dialect. Regional dialects can be "preserved" through song and poetry.

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
These things have happened in all sides of the fence. I consider them to be manifestations of lack of respect or consciousness towards the Armenian language.

---

"Lack of respect" seems too harsh. It would seem to be nearly impossible for Armenians living outside of Armenia to avoid regional influences on their language. It only becomes a problem when they then immigrate. Suddenly, Kevork Beiruitian and Knar Yerevanyan are neighbors and can't speak clearly to each other.

BTW, why is "Thank You" one of the hardest words in the Armenian language???

[Guest]

Mike,

 

If I had understood you correctly, in your previous mailings you have complained that the family traditions have been lost, and you, the fourth-generation American Armenian are trying to revive them.

 

The only example of regional dialect in Armenian poetry that I am aware of is the one by Hovhanness Tumanyan, who has frequently written in the dialect of Lori. Anybody else that I am familiar with has written in the Yerevanian version, if it is Eastern Armenian, or Bolisahay version, if it is Western Armenian. These two dialects are the instruments of written communications beyond grabar – the Old Armenian, in at least the last couple of centuries. You are right that a lot of regional dialects are preserved through songs. An example is the Sasuntsi dialect, though at least 10 years ago there was large Sasuntsi community in Armenia. But do these regional dialects have more than ethnographic value?

 

To the contrary, those of us who feel strong about our statehood, feel that the “regionalism” is harmful for the unification of our nation. Nobody can deny people to have their regional cutoms, expressions, etc. But if we are driven by a common cause today, I think it is good to promote a universal for the nation language of communication.

 

As far as Kevork and Knar from your message are concerned, I can assure you that with rare exceptions, Knar will comletely be able to understand Kevork and moreover, talk “Beyrutian” Armenian. If the Beyrutian would speak good Western Armenian, and the Yerevanian would speak good Eastern Armenian, believe me – there would be no problem of communication between them, whatsoever.

 

Keeping the language clean is hard even in Armenia. There are always other influences to struggle with. When I speak to hairs of Hayastantsi Armenians, who have not gone to school in Armenia, even if they don’t use foreign words, I frequently find that their Armenian grammar lacks coherent structure. So, I think this is not about regional influences only, but also on the structure of the language, in general.

 

But my main argument, again, would be the written Armenian language. There are two standards – Yerevanian and Bolsahay. I strongly doubt that Bolsahay will exist outside maybe Lebanon 100 years from now. It is my hope that the Yerevanian will exist and develop forever, though.

 

I am curious to know why do you conclude that “Thank you” is a hard word in Armenian. In fact, it may be a very tender expression, when it indeed reflects gratitude.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
Mike,

If I had understood you correctly, in your previous mailings you have complained that the family traditions have been lost, and you, the fourth-generation American Armenian are trying to revive them.

The third generation has generally kept them, but yes I am one of the few fourth generation (born in say, late 1950s through late 1960s) in the family who care about this stuff. Since my grandparents were actually born here though, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

Originally posted by MJ:

I am curious to know why do you conclude that “Thank you” is a hard word in Armenian. In fact, it may be a very tender expression, when it indeed reflects gratitude.

---

I just find I struggle with its pronounciation. I can understand the widespread use of "Merci".

I also was alluding to the stereotype Armenians can have of being rude. Funny thing is, of all the words and phrases my grandparents taught me, "thank you" wasn't one of them!


BTW, absolutely excellent post.



[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 11, 2000).]

[Guest]

Hey Kazza!

 

Inch bes es? Actually I learned English and Armenian first, speaking English to Dad and Armenian to mom. However, around 4 or 5 I started playing with the Persian kids in the neighborhood, so I picked up Farsi. Its just that Farsi has a smoother sound, while Armenian takes a lot out of you when it comes to your vocal chords! I have been told my accent in Farsi is excellent, while my Armenian accent leaves something to be desired.

 

As for my Armenian surname, I have none! My mom is the Armenian, dad is American. I would rather not reveal my last name, as I have some enemies here on the forum. Let's just say it would fit in in Dublin more!