Arpa Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 Double r's in the title to indicate that it is spelled with "ra", the hard R.Please allow me to move this item with a new subject topic as the original (Seljuk...)has wandered and meandered coming to, among others, etymolgy of words and names.Yes, some transliterations will use the Latin L with a slash or some other diacritical mark to impart the sound of "gh". I had written about this, I may write again. This falls under the topic of "Transliteration". I began the topic but was sidetracked. I may get back to it but in the meantime the slashed L is used by serious scholars, it is known as the HMB(Hubschman-Meillet-Benvenista) system. From the opera Anush, her lamentations of her dark fate.Asoum en ourin Aghjik er indz pes,Mnoun er yarin,Ou chekav na tes. They say the willowWas a girl like me,Waiting for her yarWho did not appear. Kheghj@ doghalovAnhuys kratsav,Dardits choratsav,Oureni dartsav. Trembling poor thingBent with no hopeGone dry ber painTurned to a willow. Jreri vraGloukh@ kakhadzDer doghoum e naOu lalis kamats. Over the watersWith her head bent downShe trembles stillAnd quietly weeps. Ou amboghj tarinMi mitq e anoum,Te yar@ yarinVonts e moranoum. Entire year overShe cannot believeHow can a loverForget his loved one.===Ketaki Vra, Over the Brook By Avetik Isahakian ¶ºî²ÎÆ ìð² ²í»ïÇù Æë³Ñ³ÏÛ³Ý ¶»ï³ÏÇ íñ³ »ùáõ»É ¿ áõéÇÝ. àõ ݳÛáõÙ ¿ Éáõé ì³½áÕ çñ»ñÇÝ£- ... ºñ³½-³ß˳ñÑáõÙ ²Ù¿Ý µ³Ý Û³õ¿ï ¶³ÉÇë ¿, ·ÝáõÙ àõ óݹáõÙ ³ÝÑ»ï£ ºõ ·ÉáõËÁ ϳ˪ ܳ É³ó ¿ ÉÇÝáõÙ.- æñ»ñÁ áõñ³Ëª ¶³ÉÇë »Ý, ·ÝáõÙ... [/F] (not my translation))Over the streamThe willow is bent,It stares in silenceOn the running water. In this dream worldAll things are foreverComing and going away,Fading away, traceless. And with its head bowedThe willow weeps-The laughing water keepsComing and going away. =======The town/village of Akori/Akouri/Agori/Agouri, and ultimately "agri"(?).Akori, Village in the region of Masyatsotn(foot of masis) in the state of Ararat, at the edge of the gorge of the Masis Major.Please take this with a grain of salt as I do, I don't believe in the legend of Noah as it is known today even if I cannot question the origin of the name just as I cannot argue that Rome was not named after Romulus of the legendary Remus and Romulus saga. According to folk legend (Khorenatsi) the town was named based on the legend that Noah planted a willow tree at a fountain. In the Armenian "willow" is known as "ourr/ourreni", and "ag/ak" means "fountain/eye" (not unlike the Turkish "goez" which also means both). Put the two together and you get "ak/eye/fountain" and "orri/ourri"= Akorri/Agorri.The earliest mention of the village is by Ghazar Parpetsi in connection with thw PersArmenian war of AD 481-84(Akoriyi Jakatamart). It is again mentioned in AD 703 during a battle between Arabs and Armenians(Vardanakerti Jakatamart). During the middle ages the town had been the hub of a large region and the seat of the bishopric of Khor Virap. In July 2,1840 during a major earthquake the town was all but totally ruined, it was buried under huge falling boulders. Before this disaster the town had a population of 2200 of which 1600 were Armenians. It was a major landing site for mountain climbers, had a cathedral built during the reign of Catholicos Anastas Akorretsi (661-667). Later on another church/convent was built (Sb. Hakob). Dubois de Montperion (a mountaineer)has written about the Armenian inscriptions believed to date during the 13-14 c. A new town was built not too far from the orignal and was named Nor Akorri. It had 50 households, church and a fortress. The village was evacuated/cleansed during the Genocide and the its aftermath, most of the survivors ended up in what is today Modern Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:Yes, some transliterations will use the Latin L with a slash or some other diacritical mark to impart the sound of "gh". I had written about this, I may write again. This falls under the topic of "Transliteration". I began the topic but was sidetracked. I may get back to it but in the meantime the slashed L is used by serious scholars, it is known as the HMB(Hubschman-Meillet-Benvenista) system.Actually, scholars have made a clear distinction between /uvular-r/, or "gh", and voiceless /l/, or "ll" in Welsh, also marked with an "o" underneath the symbol /l/ or with a "curl" in the middle of /l/. The allophone [l] with a slash, is the dark /l/ in English "milk", "gulp" and "fall". In the case of English, clear, dark and voiceless [l] are allophones of /l/. In the case of Armenian, voiceless /l/ was a phoneme that has now been replaced by /uvular-r/, /x/ and /clear-l/. Point being: "gh" is NOT the same as "l" in "milk" or "l" in "clear". Interesting story about Akourri though. I had no idea. Edit: Sorry Arpa, I realized that we are actually saying the same thing. Please exuse my prior misunderstanding. [ October 22, 2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: nairi ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:A new town was built not too far from the orignal and was named Nor Akorri. It had 50 households, church and a fortress. The village was evacuated/cleansed during the Genocide and the its aftermath, most of the survivors ended up in what is today Modern Armenia.Lynch, writing in 1893, says that new Akhuri "according to the official statistics contains a population of some 400 Tartar inhabitants". I.e. 400 Turks and no Armenians. So, what happened to them? Did the Armenians do a bit of "cleansing" for themselves? Or are you (or your source) wrong in implying that there were any Armenians living in New Akhouri before 1915. Lynch mentions a "Cossack station" - your "fort" perhaps? The church might belong to the Cossacks, and any Armenians there during and after 1915 might be there as refugees from Turkey, escaping the 1915 massacres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:Yes, some transliterations will use the Latin L with a slash or some other diacritical mark to impart the sound of "gh". I had written about this, I may write again. This falls under the topic of "Transliteration". I began the topic but was sidetracked. I may get back to it but in the meantime the slashed L is used by serious scholars, it is known as the HMB(Hubschman-Meillet-Benvenista) system.Arpa, do you know if there any way of reproducing these symbols over the internet, and what fonts contains these symbols> (And, if you do, are there any public domain ones?) Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 steve, the thing is microsoft word has the symbols under insert/symbols, but the damn things don't make it to the text over the internet (or maybe being an electronic neanderthal, i can't). cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:steve, the thing is microsoft word has the symbols under insert/symbols, but the damn things don't make it to the text over the internet (or maybe being an electronic neanderthal, i can't). cheers,As far as "electronics" I may be millennia behind you.I tried to find a site where the HMB system was explained and illustrated... alas.The LOC (Library of Congress in DC) subscribes to it.I will move this topic and go to Transliteration in Language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:steve, the thing is microsoft word has the symbols under insert/symbols, but the damn things don't make it to the text over the internet (or maybe being an electronic neanderthal, i can't). cheers,You can display a lot of symbols and foreign letters if you have the unicode version of arial installed on your PC (I think it is installed by default on the latest version of Windows). On web pages these are represented by character codes, e.g.: typing ş (& then # then 351 then gives you the Turkish "sh" letter). Who can see the letter displayed correctly and who can't? But, I don't think the special characters used in the transliteration can be displayed this way. (However, I have never seen a complete list of character codes anywhere, most lists stop at only character 255). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 That smilie icon should have been a semicolon! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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