Vard

[MosJan]

inch xosk Vard/Ward bar@/Anvanum@ mez HAyeris mot shat varuts e ogtagotsvum, chgitem te mer barn e te voch sakayn

mer azgayin sovorutyunerits mek@ vor@ galis der minj qristonya jamanaknerits, da Vardevorn e - yev yete chem sxalvum iys sovorutyan anun@ / anvanum@ anpopox e mnatsel minch iysor.

 

Yes Kaseyi Vard@ da HAykakan e 100% Qani vor mer N@vard@ HAyuhi e yev mer Yerevan@ VArdaguyn amenalav vardi osharak@ mer HAyuhinern en Patrastum (irents Hampyuri pes)

 

isk VArtuhin / VArtuk ?=

Isk Vardan@? =

isk VArdananq@? =

isk VArdapet@? = ? te vardapet@ T ov e grvum ??

[MosJan]

the Persian name for rose is gul

 

the Persian name for Varduhi is = Gyulnara ?

so the name of the city Gyulistan in Shahumyan rg' is persian.

nice to knwo this - Thanks Arpa

 

 

Movses

 

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[Harut]

Arpa,

 

about the colors, the pink color assocciated with "vart" may come from Russian. they use "rosovi'" to mean pink. it is possible that Armenians started reffering to "vartaguyn" as pink only lately, with the arrival of Russians.

if it is not so, then why is "al", meaning dark red, also assocciated with "vart". (i mean it is used with "vart" a lot ("al vart", "alvan vart")).

or maybe "al" is not an Armenian word at all, because Russian word "ali'" also means dark red.

 

ooohhh, i'm confused.

[Harut]

i just thought of something else.

with what else can "vard" be assocciated with??? besides color. its currly shape?

 

i was thinking about Armenian masculine name "Vartges".

why did it originated? because of one's red hair? or currly hair? or both?

[Arpa]

Whoa, hold your horses![QB]

 

[QB]There is no proof that vard is not a native Armenian word.[QB]

[QB]I remember reading western, non-Armenian articles where the etymology of rose was connected to vard, and it was explicitly mentioned that the name probably came from the east of Greeks, and that it was not obvious whether Parthians borrowed from Armenians or vice versa. I also remember at least one non-Armenian article where the etymology was claimed to originate in Armenian. Perhaps more interestingly, the Persian name for rose is gul, and, believe it or not, it has decended from vard or some form of it. Does anyone know what the steps were in this incredible tranformation? I sure would like to find out. If anyone finds out, could you please post it (preferably under the Language forum where it probably belongs) ?

TB, are you sure you meant "roses" and not "horses"? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

That line was meant to be a hook to lure Nvard to tell us what she knew about the subject.

(You are right this subject belongs under the topic of language and the entire topic of "weird names" should be moved to Culture which I will address since Movses brings a point very crucial to the subject).As to your question, which may still be a question, as things stand the question which came first can be debated from here to eternity, however as stated in my recent post many words, including "nvard", no matter who says what, is still Armenian as we are the only ones to use it in that particular form. And as stated sometime ago, we don't care what anyone else says, when we say it is Armenian it is Armenian, let them prove otherwise.

Now, coming to "vard/rose", it is very easy to fall into the trap of the obvious as I did, although, I must say not not knowingly since I knew the following;

First off, it seems that only in the Armenian the color associated with "vard/rose" is exclusively used to mean pink while in other languages it is uxually used to describe a color deeper than that, as we will see in the case of the Greek. With that said and done we do also use the word to mean "red" as in the case of Karmir Vardan, based on the fact that "vard" does actually mean "red".

It is true that many of our neigbors use the word to mean "rose", the flower, as in the Arabic ward, they also use it as a feminine name in the feminized form of "wardeh".

According to reliable sources "vard" is from the proto-IndoEuropean "urdho" and all the variations such as verd, ward, warda derive from it. This may be what you were looking for. We can safely assume that if the origin is proto-IE then Armenian practically being the sole heir to IE the word is of Armenian origin and all others have loaned it from us. It is easy to see how "vard/ward" may have derived frm "urdho" but we have to go through the Greek "rhodon" to see how the Latin "rosa" and the other Romance languages have obtained the "rose". There is also some reference as to how "gul" may have evolved from "vard" going though several metamorphoses such as varda-vile-vil-gul. It may be a little difficult to see but we'll have to trust the etymologists as to how a V becomes G and an R becomes L.

When it comes to colors there may be one other connection which is not mentioned in my reference under this particular topic. We said above that in the Armenian "vard" is associated with the color pink however there is one other word in the Armenian, "ortan (karmir)", a deep red that is extracted from the insect "ort(an)" (ort as in vort, worm).

[SAS]

Arpa,

 

hamenayn deps "vordan karmir"` atsancvac "vord/=warm" baric.

 

MosJan, Harut duq mek "vard" eq grum, mek el "vart"` steghtselov...shpotutyun:

 

&isht e arajin dzev@:

 

Arevelahayer@ "vard" artasanum en motavorapes "varth":

 

Haykakan kananc anunner@` Varduhi, Vardush,

Vardanush, Nvard yev ayln atsancyal en "vard"-ic:

 

Bayc... Zvarth = grabaryan Z + varth = Z + vard = inchpes vard@...

 

Vardevor = Vardavar(&isht dzev@ ) = Vard + a + var = varvrun varder:

 

Vardges = Vard + ges = Vard + maz:

 

Imast@ terevs- mazer@ vardi nman tapvats( prvats):

 

H.G.Arpa, greci u sirts kaskats mtav...

 

Xndrum em nayes A&aryani bararan@ "Ges" = "maz/her"?

___________________________________________

 

SAS

[Arpa]

Originally posted by SAS:

 

ES GLKHAGIR GREM OR IM@ ZANAZANVI.

hamenayn deps "vordan karmir"` atsancvac "vord/=warm" baric.

 

MosJan, Harut duq mek "vard" eq grum, mek el "vart" `steghtselov...shpotutyun:

 

&isht e arajin dzev@:

 

Arevelahayer@ "vard" artasanum en motavorapes "varth":

 

Haykakan kananc anunner@` Varduhi, Vardush,

Vardanush, Nvard yev ayln atsancyal en "vard"-ic:

 

Bayc... Zvarth = grabaryan Z + varth = Z + vard = inchpes vard@...

ZVARTH/ZOUARTH BOLOROVIN TARBER E. TES OUGHAGROUTYUN@. ANOROSH E SAKAYN KAN OVQ OR KASEN ZOUARJ (OURAKHUTYUN)BARITS E, OURISHNER "ARTH" ARMATITS, AYSKINQN ARTHOUN (AWAKE).

 

 

Vardevor = Vardavar(&isht dzev@ ) = Vard + a + var = varvrun varder:

VARDAVAR@ VARDITS A ARAJANOUM. IT WAS A FESTIVSAL DEDICATED TO ASTGHIK WHICH LATER WAS CHRISTIANIZED AND SUPERSEDED THE FEAST OF TRANSFIGURATION. THE VARD/ROSE ROOT IS BASED ON THE FACT THAT FLOWERS AND ROSES WERE STREWN , EXCHANGED AND DEDICATEWD TO THE GODDESS AND VARDAJOUR WAS SPREAD. SOME SAY IT MEANS FLAMING ROSE

Vardges = Vard + ges = Vard + maz:

GES IS HAIR/MAZ AND BY ASSOCIATION IT HAS COME TO MEAN TAIL/POCH AS IN POCHAVOR ASTGH, PROBABLY FROM THE FACT THAT IN THOSE DAYS THE HAIR WAS LONG AND TIED INTO A PONYTAIL, YES VARDGES MEANS RED HAIR. IF YOU READ VAHAGMI TZNOUND@ YOU WILL SEE THIS; "NA HOUR HER OUNER, BOTZ OUNER MOROUS... IT SEEMS RED HAIR WAS NOT A RARITY DURING THOSE DAYS.

 

Imast@ terevs- mazer@ vardi nman tapvats( prvats):

 

H.G.Arpa, greci u sirts kaskats mtav...

Xndrum em nayes A&aryani bararan@ "Ges" = "maz/her"?

 

AS TO "AL" TO MEAN RED, YES, IT DOES, IN FACT IT MEANS DEEP RED, THERE IS NO ETYMOLOGICAL EXPLANATION. MY GUESS IS IT IS FROM THE ARABIC AS IN ALVAN/ALWAN WHICH IS THE PLURAL OF LAWN/COLOR. AS IN "HAMBATZOUM YAYLA DZAGHKOUNQ@ ALVAN..." OR "AL OU ALVAN ES HAGER..."

 

IN FACT "AL" IN ARMENIAN MEANS WHITE AS IN ALEVOR/A;EHER WHITE HAIRED. THAT DERIVES FROM AL/ALIQ TO MEAN WAVE. IT IS BELIEVED THAT IT WAS BASED ON THE FACT THAT WHEN THE WAVES HIT THE ROCKS THEY TURN IBTO WHITE FOAM.

 

AS TO VARD MEANING RED OR PINK, I GUESS IT ALL DEPENDS WHAT COLOR ROSE IS PREDOMINANT IN THE REGION, IN THE ENGLISH THE COLOR ROSE IS COMMONLY ASSOCITADE WITH PINK.

 

VARDAPET IS FROM A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ROOT. IT IS BASED ON "VARDA" TO MEAN WORK AND "PET"-MASTER, THEREFOR WORK-MASTER, FORMAN AND TEACHER. ANOTHER VARIATION IS VARZHAPET, AGAIN A TEACHER I.E. MASTER OF KNOWLEDGE AND TRAINING.

[SAS]

Arpa,

 

shnorhakalutyun:

 

"zvarth"-i qo stugabanutyan het hamamit em...

____

SAS

[MosJan]

Bravo !!!

[aurguplu]

hello

 

hope this can help a bit:

 

"al" is also turkish for "deep, dark red".

 

"gul" comes from proto-indo-european "bhlomen" from which the german blume, english bloom, latin flos, (french fleur) also come.

 

as for "vart" it looks like the arabic "ward" which means "flower", but i do not know which comes from which.

 

by the way, where did roses originally come from? i mean, plants were moved around by people in the past a lot. maybe that would help.

 

cheers,

[Arpa]

hello

hope this can help a bit:

"al" is also turkish for "deep, dark red".

It seems we agree that words to describe the flower in many languages

some points to the color red. Even the Enlish and others who use some

form of "rose" still point to that as "rose" in fact does not mean pink

but red. Consider such words as "barbarossa"(red beard), "testarosa"

(red head) etc.

"gul" comes from proto-indo-european "bhlomen" from which the german

blume, english bloom, latin flos, (french fleur) also come.

as for "vart" it looks like the arabic "ward" which means "flower",

but i do not know which comes from which.

by the way, where did roses originally come from? i mean, plants were

moved around by people in the past a lot. maybe that would help.

cheers,[/b}

No matter how one looks at it all indications are that it originated in

the orient. There is evidence that roses were admired, even worshipped

in ancient Egypt. Some say the Arabs took it to Europe either via the ME

or Spain. Others contend the Crusaders carried it.

Here is one item from

http://www.csulb.edu/~odinthor/oldrose.htm...ml#Introduction and General History

====

 

4. DAMASK ROSES.

Damask Roses are supposed to be from a hybridization between R. gallica and R. phœnicia which occurred in Asia Minor and

became distributed throughout Syria and the Near East and Middle East generally. The Crusaders—according to tradition—brought

it back to Europe from Damascus (hence the name) in 1254. However, there is a most daunting and seemingly impenetrable fog

around R. damascena. References can be found to "the common Damask" as late as the 1820's, and yet what an author is referring

to by this term remains elusive. It indeed frequently seems that "the Common Damask" is rather a Damask Perpetual! Worse,

cultivars which we today consider as defining the group—`Leda', perhaps, and 'Félicité Hardy' (better known as 'Mme.

Hardy')—seem to have been hybrids. 'Belle Couronnée' (better known as 'Celsiana'), a most beautiful and popular rose, is possibly

"typical" Damask; and yet, even it has its mystery (current research affirms that the "pre-1750" date usually put forward is

whimsical). Even 'York and Lancaster', frequently considered to be a sport of the original (red?) Damask, is supposed by one

authority to be an Alba on the basis of a sporting back to something like the Alba 'Semiplena'! The cultivar used for the rose oil

industry in Bulgaria, 'Trigintipetala', supposedly a long-ago import from Turkey, is perhaps dependably R. damascena . . . . That

said, characteristics associated with our concept of what a Damask should look like are: upright frequently arching canes,

grayish-green somewhat rugose somewhat hirsute leaves, large fragrant blossoms in few-flowered clusters, delicate in appearance,

and ranging in color from white to deep pink depending on the cultivar. 'Ville de Bruxelles', 'Mme. Zoëtmans', 'Kazanlyk'.

====

This discussion may open a whole can of worms such as the Tulip and, heaven forbid "coffee".

It is rumored that tulips reached Europe via the Turks, it may be so however there is a slight fine point here.

Those claim that Turks took tulips to Europe may overlook the fact that what they loosely labeled as Turks were in fact Armenian merchants from Julfa (Isfahan) who may be the first Middle Easterners to reach and settle in Amsterdam. There is ample evidence of that. We can talk about that in length. In the meantime, here is the real dirt to take the steam (oops!) off {Turkish) coffee. Don't take my word for it. Turn on NPR and listen/read.

COFFEE

http://savvy.mpr.org/show/features/2001/20.../feature2.shtml

Vienna, of course, is famed for its concerts. After a performance,

there's no better place to go than one of the city's fabled coffee

houses. Veritable institutions, these establishments are more than just

a place to unwind - they're practically a way of life, as the Savvy

Traveler's Tom Verde discovered on a café crawl through the Austrian

capital.

 

Feature: A Viennese Cafe Crawl

Listen with RealAudio

Need audio help?

 

The legend goes that when Turkish forces abandoned their seige of Vienna

in the late 1600s, they left

behind two things Austrians had never seen before - delicate little

loaves of bread shaped liked Islamic crescents which we now call

croissants, and burlap sacks full of olive-colored beans which the

Viennese thought were camel fodder. A worldly Polish mercenary named

Kolschitzky, however, knew coffee when he

saw it, and asked for the beans as payment. Before long, Kolshitzky was

the wildly successful proprieter of

Vienna's first coffee house. The truth is that it was probably Armenian

merchants who in fact introduced coffee to Vienna in the late 1600s.

But, however it got here, savoring the beverage at a marble-topped table

while scanning the daily newspapers is practically a civic duty in

Vienna - an experience that no visitor to the city, no matter how much

of a hurry he's in, should pass up.

You might begin your immersion in Viennese café culture at the city's

oldest surviving coffee house, Café

Frauenhuber, in the heart of Vienna's historic first district.

Established in 1788, in what was once a medieval

bathouse, the Frauenhuber has all the ingredients of a classic Viennese

coffee house: glass chandeliers,

crimson- and cream-colored marble tables, uncomfortable wooden chairs,

an assortment of dog-eared newspapers, and decorous waiters in tuxedos.

The Frauenhuber was one of Mozart's favorite hangouts. He lived - and

died, as it happened - just around the corner, and once gave a

performance in the café. That's a pretty tough act to follow, unless

you're

Ludwig van Beethoven, another regular, who also performed here some

years later. Local guide, Heidi Fedorczuk...

Heidi: "Beethoven and Mozart, they were composing here. They also liked

to drink wine o coffee. The rooms have changed...they were more smokey,

they were darker, they have changed nowadays because people don't like

so much smoke anymore."

Just as in Beethoven's day, the Viennese continue to regard their

beloved coffee houses as sort of second living rooms - places, wrote

essayist Alfred Polgar, for those who want to be alone, yet surrounded

by people

at the same time.

Not far from the horse drawn carriage stands of Stephansdom Cathedral

square, a narrow alleyway leads to

just such a place, Café Hawelka, one of the most well preserved old time

coffee houses in the city.

A century's worth of graffiti adorns the dark, tobacco-stained walls

here, together with numerous, crookedly

hung original paintings - the works of starving artists who couldn't

afford to pay their bills with much else,

some of whom went on to become locally famous. The threadbare, burgundy

upholstery in the booths has

seen better days, and I don't think the curtains of the place have been

opened in forty years, but customers

wouldn't have it any other way, says 88 year-old proprieter Leopold

Halwelka.

Hawelka says that at his café, as in most of Vienna's 1500 or so coffee

houses, customers are welcome to

linger. Like a Congressman staging a filibuster, once you order a two

dollar cup of coffee, you're free to on to that table all day if you

like.

Some patrons have been known to take full advantage of this hospitality.

At Café Central, a few steps away

from the Imperial Palace, nineteenth century Bohemian writer Peter

Altenberg practically lived at the listing the café as his mailing

address. Another infamous regular was Lev Davydovich Bronstein, better

known as Leon Trotsky, who is said to have plotted the Russian

revolution here at these tables. The story goes that when news of the

revolution reached Vienna, a waiter at the Central commented, "I knew

Herr Bronstein would go far, but never thought he'd leave without paying

for the four café mokkas he owes me."

Today, the elegantly restored Baroque interior of the Central, with its

soaring, guilded ceilings, paladian windows, and live music in the

afternoons, is more often packed with tourists than revolutionaries. And

while it's pricier than most coffee houses, it's still well worth a

visit.

Like many Viennese coffee houses, the Central offers a full menu and a

bewildering array of variations on the theme of a simple cup of Joe . .

. there's an einspanner, a large café mocha crowned with a genererous

dollop of whipped cream...a Turkischer, strong, black Turkish coffee

served in copper cups...or Kaisermelange, black coffee served with

brandy and, ugh!, an egg yolk. If you want to keep it simple, just order

what most locals drink...melange...a double espresso with a little

steamed milk.

Werner: "What you are tasting now is the original sachertorte...it dates

back to 1832..."

Of course, what's a cup of coffee without a little slice of something on

the side, in this case a piece of

Vienna's famed Sachertorte, a rich, chocolate and apricot confection

created a century and half ago by

Franz Sacher, a 16-year-old apprentice in the imperial kitchens. The

cake catapulted him to fame and wealth and his heirs now sell nearly

300,000 sachertortes annually here in the elegant café of the five-star

Sacher hotel, one of the most luxurious in town. Back in the kitchen,

there's a woman whose only job is to crack open the 1. 3 million eggs

used to make those cakes. Now that's someone who really deserves a

coffee break.

In Vienna, I¹m Tom Verde for the Savvy Traveler

 

Savvy Resources:

More information from Tom on Vienna's coffee houses...

For more info on Vienna's coffee houses and visiting the city, look

here:

Return to Feature Archive

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[sen_Vahan]

The popular name Vardges has a Persian origin. As far as I remember (I am not sure though) "ges" means "poch"(tail, wing) and "vard" means something else(to my mind it is "katu"(cat).Again I do not remember exactly). I thought that might help.

Vahan

[Arpa]

Vahan,

You're not too far off.

Vard-ges means "red-haired". As we saw, in general vard means red and as you indicate "ges" is poch/tail, however in this context it is used as in a "pony-tail"/hair.

[Harut]

so, what is the origin of "ges"?

is it Armenian or Persian?

thank you

[Arpa]

=======

I must do a little back pedaling and try and reverse the picture.

We were assuming that "ges/·¿ë", Yes it is spelled with the "e", originally meant "tail" and the "hair" was followed. It seems the word originally meant "hair". Yes, Harut it points to Persian but it does not stop there. It goes all the way to Sanskrit. Each people that use the word, like the Afghanis, Persians and Kurds have their own particular usage, such as the hair of pigs, or simply a bang of hair. In the original Sanskrit, "ketsa", it was used to decribe the hair of a horse,

i.e. mane/µ³ß.

WE all know that "gisavor astgh" means comet, i.e. a star with a tail, or hair for that matter.