Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hagarag Member Member # 494 posted May 29, 2002 09:44 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Lindsay, Armenians are fooling themselves big-time. During the American Missionary period of the Nineteenth century and even before (European Catholic missionaries) Armenians were embued with an "Aryan" mentality. Armenians choose to have an extreme phobia about their roots. The indigenous population from whom they descended were closely akin to the ancient Sumerians of present day Kuwait, a quasi-African race. Furthermore Armenians have assimilated significant numbers of Mongols and other non-European peoples. We are, as the American Le Pen, Buchanan would say, a mongrel race. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Twilight Bark Member Member # 555 posted May 29, 2002 10:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by hagarag:Armenians choose to have an extreme phobia about their roots.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the risk of spoiling our pleasant detante, I must say that is patently false. Armenians are insecure about their virtues, but not about their roots. They have no qualms about being a mixture of Anatolian and Near Eastern peoples. And few would react with more than a smile and a shrug to your earth-shattering revelation about "extra" additions to the mixture. Perhaps you are assigning too much significance to those Armenians that you dislike, and too little to those that you do not. quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The indigenous population from whom they descended were closely akin to the ancient Sumerians of present day Kuwait, a quasi-African race. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is a nice little piece of fiction that I have not heard before. Baseless but creative. I am not saying it is wrong, just baseless as far as I know. Sumerian society itself had at least two anthropological types. The better known is the "Armenoid" type, which is self-explanatory. The second type is claimed by some to be similar to the Dravidians of India. If the current Kuwaitis are quasi-african, that fact would have more to do with the fact that the semitic latecomers to the area were quasi-african. Nothing to do with Sumerians. quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Furthermore Armenians have assimilated significant numbers of Mongols and other non-European peoples. We are, as the American Le Pen, Buchanan would say, a mongrel race.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you think that the Armenians acted as an unusually strong magnet for the Mongolians, or that the Mongolian invaders intermingled/raped across the region more or less homogeneously? Please elaborate. As for "other non-Europeans", it is an information-free statement since Armenians have always been a largely "non-European" people anyway. I, for one, am both comfortable and proud of descending from a (mostly) non-European ancestry that is a wonderful mixture of the creators of ancient civilizations. Twilight Bark P.S. Perhaps the issues that are not related to the original question should be moved to another topic. Sorry Lindsay. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 290 | From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hagarag Member Member # 494 posted May 29, 2002 10:53 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Twilight Bark, Do you realize that your rebuttal to my remarks somewhat confirms my premise. How do you know the timetable of the genetic progression of the Sumerians/Kuwaitis? Are you the eminent Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan or another eminent geneticist? Dravidians? Did you know that many Turkish hyper-nationalists (rabid Armenian haters) claim that the Armenians are not indigenous to the Anatolian plateau and hail from India? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hagarag Member Member # 494 posted May 29, 2002 10:55 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Twilight Bark, The Medieval Armenian nation was in an alliance with the Mongol rulers, an unusual occurence. Armenian Cilician royalty intermarried with Mongol royalty. This was a unique situation. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hagarag Member Member # 494 posted May 29, 2002 11:29 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Twilight Bark, FYI, you have mispelled a word. It is spelled DETENTE not detante. My mispellings are due somewhat to a poor quality IBM keyboard. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Twilight Bark Member Member # 555 posted May 29, 2002 11:41 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by hagarag:Twilight Bark, Do you realize that your rebuttal to my remarks somewhat confirms my premise. How do you know the timetable of the genetic progression of the Sumerians/Kuwaitis? Are you the eminent Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan or another eminent geneticist? Dravidians? Did you know that many Turkish hyper-nationalists (rabid Armenian haters) claim that the Armenians are not indigenous to the Anatolian plateau and hail from India?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, I try not to realize things that do not exist. By equating any discussion of your premise to a confirmation of the premise, you are revealing a desire to talk down to a captive audience of non-thinkers. How can I discuss your premise without, in your mind, confirming it? Strange... I do not have to fabricate a timetable for the Kuwaiti population. Sumerians were overrun by the semitic Akkadians thousands of years ago. We do not have enough evidence to anthropologically conect the Akkadians with today's southern arabs (the linguistic connection nothwithstanding; but it is not the same thing), let alone the Sumerians that were conquered by the Akkadians. The onus is on the one claiming an ancestral relationship. That means you. As for your oft-stated celebrity worship and a desire to reduce ancestry to "genetics", I will only say that I am ill at ease with both tendencies. I will reveal to you neither my "celebrity status", nor my "qualifications". If you want to have an intellectual exchange with me, you will have to present your ideas without resorting to dropping names or insinuations about a perceived lack of "status". Focus on the content, not whether or not your correspondent is famous. As for the Dravidians, I did not say that Armenians descended from Dravidians. I said some in the Sumerian society appear to have some resemblances to Dravidians. I definitely know of no link whatsoever between Armenians and Dravidians. I thought my thesis, that the Armenians share ancestry with the "Armenoid" element in the Sumnerian society, was abundantly clear. That should have been obvious. And what some Turkish chauvinist may or may not fabricate has no bearing on my analysis, not that it had any relation to my statement in this case. If your claim of supreme regard for celebrity scientists is genuine, then you have to increase your literacy on the scientific process. You don't discard an idea because you do not like its author. Then again, in the case of chauvinist nonsense, you don't have to be prejudiced to throw them into the dustbin. Twilight Bark --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 290 | From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Twilight Bark Member Member # 555 posted May 29, 2002 11:50 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by hagarag:Twilight Bark, FYI, you have mispelled a word. It is spelled DETENTE not detante. My mispellings are due somewhat to a poor quality IBM keyboard.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear hagarag,What is that supposed to mean? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 290 | From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Twilight Bark Member Member # 555 posted May 29, 2002 12:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by hagarag:Twilight Bark, The Medieval Armenian nation was in an alliance with the Mongol rulers, an unusual occurence. Armenian Cilician royalty intermarried with Mongol royalty. This was a unique situation.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I care as much about whom the Cilican royalty married as I do about which male cat impregnated the stray cat in my backyard. That has virtually no relation to the makeup of the Armenian nation. I too have noticed the "mongolian faces". I also noticed that they are few and far in between. I also seriously doubt if it has anything to do with the Cilican nobility, or that it is particularly confined to Armenians. In either case, the whole premise is a non-issue for most Armenians. I don't know why you keep pounding on it. And I apologize profusely for my typos. I am sure I do not have an excellent excuse as you do. My typos are a direct consequence of my obvious lack of celebrity status and undistinguished ancestry. Please accept my sincere appreciation for letting me converse with a most distinguished descendant of illustrious nobility, to whom we owe so much. Your eternal servant,Twilight Bark P.S. This will be my last response to you, about any subject. I am not your equal. And I hope I can keep my promise. If not, you can safely ascribe it to my imperfect lineage. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 290 | From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hagarag Member Member # 494 posted May 29, 2002 12:30 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Twilight Bark, So sorry! Did I hit a nerve? I am sure that you are a much more distinguished individual than I.We are communicating here in a anonymous forum. Why the pique? Do I detect in you the same ennui with the Armenian psyche that both Baliozian and I experience? I have walked out of meetings with my fellow Armenians out of disgust. The lack of insight I have found, not only about Armenian affairs but American affairs is unbelievable. You could say that they could not see beyond their noses. I knew of one dedicated young Armenian woman who lived in a small exclusive enclave in the Bronx. Not one other Armenian knew of it and would denigrate this woman as a panchoonie who should not be listened to. She turned out to be one of the greatest Armenian benefactors. These aboushes felt the same way about my family. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Twilight Bark Member Member # 555 posted May 29, 2002 02:09 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear Boghos or any other sane friends,Please explain to his highness what is going on. I do not seem to have the ability to convey anything coherent to the heights at which his head exists.In your debt,TB --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 290 | From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Boghos Member Member # 67 posted May 29, 2002 02:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Twilight Bark:Dear Boghos or any other sane friends,Please explain to his highness what is going on. I do not seem to have the ability to convey anything coherent to the heights at which his head exists.In your debt,TB-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear TB, Excellent sense of humour in your exchange with his majesty. I suspect he escaped from the madhouse (what a nice word, much better than sanatorium) where he used to think he incarnated Alex Manoogian, academic Hampartsoomian, Raffi, Sarian and Gulbenkian all at the same time. But not to worry, one day he'll give us the pleasure of his profound wisdom in his upcoming earth shattering book. Meanwhile he should be content with his official title of "village idiot" (there is a discussion to make him the official orthographic authority, but we'll see...). sincerely, yours, Boghos --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 628 | From: Brazil | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hagarag Member Member # 494 posted May 29, 2002 03:23 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------AU CONTRAIRE!!!!! Take an ethnic group which has an 85% assimilation rate and yet touts it's approach to the world as "brilliant." People are starving in the streets in the ROA and our leaders are building magnificent cathedrals and palaces of glass. Homosexual dentists in the ROA are driven out of the country, ending up in churches in Virginia USA, while others are being killed. Meanwhile, our beautiful young women are emigrating to Turkey and the Arab Gulf lands to work as prostitutes for affluent Moslems who can't get satisfaction from their wives (taught that any passion is sinful). A national group which, with the exception of a few brilliant activists in Washington, spits in the face of worldwide Jewry, a group which has much international influence in order to break bread and walk arm-in-arm with Arafat. Who was it you were suggesting belongs in a mental sanitorium? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Well hagarag count me as another one who'll not bother anymore. So long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Boghos, You are acting true to form. You only see the reality that your community leaders present. It is no wonder that our community and nation finds themselves in their present condition. As I have said before, "What a bunch of self-defeating NINCOMPOOPS!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 The progressive Armenians such as Eshoo, Speier, Simitian, Harpootlian, etc. and numerous academics are rarely heard from in our media. These good Armenians are not chauvinists, anti-Semitic or xenophobic. They make friends for the Armenian community. Our media, our organizations and our churches are unfortunately top-heavy with conservatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Domino:TB Many other attempts were made to link the Sumerians with the Turks.... which need not be dignified by a serious discussion or rebuttal. A shaking of the head is sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Twilight Bark, If you wish to shoot down my e-mail threads please do your homework first. Sumer was located in the extreme southern area of the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates, the area of present day Kuwait. It was the AKKADIAN empire which encapsulated present day Iraq and beyond and which also conquered Sumer. A person of your high level of perception should not make such inaccurate statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Furthermore aren't these statements alluding to "HAGARAG IS A JEW" getting a little old? I am an Armenian (albeit 1/8 Assyrian) and was raised as a Protestant. My family was a mixture of Armenian Gregorian and Armenian Catholic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 As promised, I will not engage in a first-person discussion with individuals that lack the basic faculties for comprehension. However, the innocent bystanders deserve not to be misinformed. Hence my persistence in correcting what is at best ignorant nonsense, and at worst a deliberate attempt at misinformation. During the time of Sumer, the silt from Euphrates and Tigris had not filled up the southern part of Mesopotomia to its current extent. In other words, the shoreline was significantly farther north, leaving present-day Kuwait completely outside of the Sumerian heartland. Even if one professes ignorance of this historic geography, it is inexcusable to deny the common knowledge that Sumerian heartland was between the two rivers and their vicinities, and certainly not in the desert to the south. I submit the above to the attention of those interested in truth, however boring and irrelevant it may seem. For others, I suggest further concentration in fabricating fantasies about imaginary "accusations" (as if it would be a sin) about being a Jew, assorted other identities, and the unfairness of those imaginary accusations, thus staying safely out of discussions for which they are so obviously unqualified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 TB, You are splitting peas. My original premise was that the Armenians were akin to the Sumerians, a premise that YOU confirmed. My alluding to Kuwait was not the central premise. Sumer was located at the southern end of the delta of the two rivers. The fact that I did not realize that the shoreline had moved further south is really not that important to my central premise. I think that what is REALLY bothering you is that I am clearly a RENEGADE Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 The take-home message for the bystanders is that Armenians can count among their ancestors the ancient "Armenoid" peoples of the Near East, some of whose descendants created the Sumerian civilization. For a playful discussion of the linguistic evidence of this ancestral connection go to /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic;f=7;t=000071 Now, this point could have been made perfectly well without bringing Kuwait, quasi-africans, or others into the discussion, but it would have been too reasonable. [ May 30, 2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 At the risk of elongating this dismal thread, I would like to make a clarification to those that are not well-versed in Sumerology. Sumer had nothing to do with Kuwait; not when it existed in the 3rd millenium BC, and not today. Sumerian civilization was confined to Mesopotamia, that is today's Iraq. The only reason to erase Iraq from a discussion of Sumerians and subsitute Kuwait as the "location" of Sumerians would be to score brownie points with a certain well-known, well-endowed ethnic group that colludes in another case of historical revisionism. And calling Sumerians "quasi-African" is probably best interpreted as a first step in a pathetic attempt at connecting Sumerians with the Hebrews of ancient Egypt. If there was a "settler-newcomer" element in the Sumerian civilization, it was probably from the North, the wishful thinking in certain quarters notwithstanding. If you are tempted to think that this subject is boring or irrelevant, please suspend that temptation. Now back to our regular programming ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 TB Many other attempts were made to link the Sumerians with the Turks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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