Two Popes

[Arpa]

Is it necessary to have two Popes and two full blown Catholicates/Papacies for a nation that at best may not have even 2 million faithful.

[karakash]

Is it necessary to have two Popes and two full blown Catholicates/Papacies for a nation that at best may not have even 2 million faithful.

 

The fact that we have four heirarchical sees can be a good thing for Armenians.

 

I will write more from home. I'm about to leave my office.

[karakash]

The fact that we have four heirarchical sees can be a good thing for Armenians.

 

I will write more from home. I'm about to leave my office.

 

We have had 2 catholicosates since 1441. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If anything, we should be proud that we have two along with two patriarchates. The amount of wealth that we have in Jerusalem is astounding - the land, the shared custodianships with the Catholics and the Greeks, the churches, the material riches, our own Quarter in the Old City.

 

I don't know too much about Constantinople except that the first few clergymen sent to the US over a hundred years ago were from there and not from Etchmiadzin. Control then passed to Etchmiadzin once a Diocese was formally organized.

 

Like I wrote in the other posts - the value of what Antelias (the Great House of Cilicia) has contributed over the past 75 years can not and should not be diminished. I have been to Antelias, Jerusalem and Etchmiadzin and they are all impressive. I don't see how Antelias can be shut down or sold. I know some who might advocate that it be converted into a Patriarchate so that we'll have three Patriarchates and only one Catholicosate. Karekin I is already known as Catholicos of All Armenians - I don't think anyone doubts his supremacy. Perhaps people are angry about Aram I because he seems to steal the show. There is no comparison between the dynamic style of Aram I and the mellow demeaner of Karekin II. Aram is a protege of Karekin I and tries to emulate his speaking style. He is also a brilliant ecumenist and is highly eduated. The one thing that Antelias can be proud of is its seminary and the high levels of education its clergymen attain even after the seminary. Karekin I, Aram I, Oshagan Choloyan, Mesrob Ashjian and many others have advanced degrees, some having multiple advanced degrees.

[Takoush]

Yeah. I have known Arch. Mesrob Ashjian and he was both a brilliant man and also a very patriotic Armenian man. He was only 62 when he died. It's a shame. He was just about going to have his doctorate degree when they called him from Atelias to go to Iran and be an Arch. there, I believe. Then he left his studies and went as duty called him. Later the university in the U.S., I don't know which one; but granted him with two(2) Master Degrees for all his efforts in the field. Of course what else, ecumenical studies. That was his biography.

 

He was a great man and a great Armenian man.

 

 

It is said also that Aram I is a very intelligent man in the field and he is very talented also. He offered a great deal to the Armenian Churches and it's cause, and he is quite respected in the World Council of Churches. If anyone wants to know more, they can read his bio. It's very impressive.

 

Also what a wonderful and saintly man Zareh I was who was loved by all his people. He was brilliant and yet very very kind Catholicos. Also Cath. Khoren, he was great also, and he did great things for Antelias. He actually built Antelias.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

Please, let us not get emotional and teary eyed and confuse pragmatism with passion.

I have also known Abp. Mesrop personally, and I have conversed with him and seen him personally on several occasions.

I don't doubt that HH Aram I is a genius, neither do I question the history and the circumestances of several catholicossatess. Yes, several, we will come to that when consider the historical nitty gritty. Yet none of that answers my basic question.

Is it necessary to have; TWO POPES?

And, imagine that some of us are questioning why we should have two Armenian "states", as a Yerevan Province and a Stepanakert Province, that Armenia and Artsakh should be united and unified.

Are these the same people that insist that we are justified to have TWO CATHOLICOSSATES, TWO PAPACIES?

I have, on many occasions stated that Hayastan and Artsakh should be two separate states each with a chair at the UN until such time, then we will think about merging. Is that the reason why some of us insist that we have two separate "chairs" at the WCC, World Council of Churches?

Is that why we have "two Catholicossates"?

The good that it has brought us???

We question why we should have two separate states, Hayastan and Artsakh at the UN, but don't bat an eye at the prospect of having two separate churches, two separate chairs at the WCC.

 

Do you see the reason why I chose to use the word "POPE".

How can I make my question more obvious?

We may count a million reasons and historical justifications as to why, just as I can cite a billion reasons why we whould not have even one Catholicos. Hierarchy?. Karakash, you will be surprised to learn that that word is not as nice and innocent as one may think. For one, it is based on "arch", i.e the Armenian "arqa", king, emperor .

Edited December 14, 2005 by Arpa

[ED]

Arpa who cares?? let it be 4,5 6.....before having multipal catoxikosess we need to cover much much important grounds, I know you agree with on this, irony of it is,.....if we can apply the same devotion and as we Armenians have thourds christianity, to our National interests other then faith.....wouldent that be wonderfull?

 

neverles, valid question your asking by starting a topic and I dont think your going to get a streght answer

[Arpa]

Yes indeed Ed, who the f... cares!

But when King Aram I, spiurqi arqayits arqa , tours his realm/kingdom and GareginII, Amenayn Haoyots Arqa tours His realm/Kingdom...

How can we forget that now we have a "king/arqa", whether their name be Robert, Levon or even Anahit. That we are a nation now with a President and a National Aseembly, not a "millet", i.e. an Armenian speaking Turkish Christian Denomination.

When are we going to become a nation and stop being a denominatuon where those "clowns" in their paganhalloween costumes will stop to supersede our PRESIDENTS.

Do the Italians send a bishop to oversee their diaspora? Do the Irish send a priest to oversee their diaspora? Do even the Mulsims send an imam to see ovsrsee their diaspora?

What is the matter with us?

Don't we have diplomats?

Do we know the meaning of that word?

Hint. It does not mean "derder/terter".

Edited December 14, 2005 by Arpa

[Takoush]

Yes indeed Ed, who the f... cares!

But when King Aram I, spiurqi arqayits arqa , tours his realm/kingdom and GareginII, Amenayn Haoyots Arqa tours His realm/Kingdom...

How can we forget that now we have a "king/arqa", whether their name be Robert, Levon or even Anahit. That we are a nation now with a President and a National Aseembly, not a "millet", i.e. an Armenian speaking Turkish Christian Denomination.

When are we going to become a nation and stop being a denominatuon where those "clowns" in their paganhalloween costumes will stop to supersede our PRESIDENTS.

Do the Italians send a bishop to oversee their diaspora? Do the Irish send a priest to oversee their diaspora? Do even the Mulsims send an imam to see ovsrsee their diaspora?

What is the matter with us?

Don't we have diplomats?

Do we know the meaning of that word?

Hint. It does not mean "derder/terter".

Good job.

 

I think you should go and drink a cool glass of water. That's what I think. Cooooooool down! And stop throwing stones at me or others here!!!!!!!!!!

 

Geeeeees. I think after Levon and Robert you should add Arpa! That's what I think.

 

If people can voice their opinions here without being stones thrown at them than things would certainly be better on the Forum.

 

Besides, Karakash answered you above, Antelias has contributed a great deal of value in the past 75 years.

What do you intend to do????????? De-throne them??????????????????????????????????

 

How can anyone voice their opinions or even say anything at all if people like you are going to attack them mercilessly.

 

Sheeeeeeesh.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[ED]

oh boy , why cant we just for couple of years belive collectivly in one thing, belive for our motherland, her prosperity, donate, help, dream fpr her....belive in our young and invest in them, why religion has to play such an important part in it? very easy, adopt a child who needs care, donate for child education and enjoy the fruts of your investments later, dosent take much but takes lots of .......what?

[Takoush]

oh boy , why cant we just for couple of years belive collectivly in one thing, belive for our motherland, her prosperity, donate, help, dream fpr her....belive in our young and invest in them, why religion has to play such an important part in it? very easy, adopt a child who needs care, donate for child education and enjoy the fruts of your investments later, dosent take much but takes lots of .......what?

Ed:

 

I don't know if anyone should voice their opinions or input in here. I don't know.

[ED]

Ed:

 

I don't know if anyone should voice their opinions or input in here. I don't know.

 

 

Anahid:

 

about this socrates said

 

"some say something becouse they have to say something

and some say becouse they have something to say"

 

everyone can and should have an input as long as they wish to do so dear!

Edited December 14, 2005 by Edward

[Takoush]

Anahid:

 

about this socrates said

 

"some say something becouse they have to say something

and some say becouse they have something to say"

 

everyone can and should have an input as long as they wish to do so dear!

Shenorhagal em jan. :)

 

Ge chanam Socrate bes esel enthanrabes ayn jamanag yerp eselik me ounim. Payts yerpemen al khosil ge sirem tsezi hed, nouynisg yete shad medz pan me chounim eselik. Mart enk che...ge badahi...

Edited December 14, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[ED]

You just expended and articulated my point dear Anahid Taguhi

[Takoush]

You just expended and articulated my point dear Anahid Taguhi

Thank you Keri jan.

 

Yev Kisher Bari! :)

[karakash]

Yeah. I have known Arch. Mesrob Ashjian and he was both a brilliant man and also a very patriotic Armenian man. He was only 62 when he died. It's a shame. He was just about going to have his doctorate degree when they called him from Atelias to go to Iran and be an Arch. there, I believe. Then he left his studies and went as duty called him. Later the university in the U.S., I don't know which one; but granted him with two(2) Master Degrees for all his efforts in the field. Of course what else, ecumenical studies. That was his biography.

 

He was a great man and a great Armenian man.

It is said also that Aram I is a very intelligent man in the field and he is very talented also. He offered a great deal to the Armenian Churches and it's cause, and he is quite respected in the World Council of Churches. If anyone wants to know more, they can read his bio. It's very impressive.

 

Also what a wonderful and saintly man Zareh I was who was loved by all his people. He was brilliant and yet very very kind Catholicos. Also Cath. Khoren, he was great also, and he did great things for Antelias. He actually built Antelias.

 

Order the new Mesrob Ashjian book from the Prelacy bookstore. It's only 50 dollars and it has his entire life story in it. Well worth it. I ordered 4 copies as gifts. He went to Princeton. Choloyan was also at Princeton I think. Aram I was at Fordham. Karekin I was at Oxford.

[karakash]

Yes indeed Ed, who the f... cares!

But when King Aram I, spiurqi arqayits arqa , tours his realm/kingdom and GareginII, Amenayn Haoyots Arqa tours His realm/Kingdom...

How can we forget that now we have a "king/arqa", whether their name be Robert, Levon or even Anahit. That we are a nation now with a President and a National Aseembly, not a "millet", i.e. an Armenian speaking Turkish Christian Denomination.

When are we going to become a nation and stop being a denominatuon where those "clowns" in their paganhalloween costumes will stop to supersede our PRESIDENTS.

Do the Italians send a bishop to oversee their diaspora? Do the Irish send a priest to oversee their diaspora? Do even the Mulsims send an imam to see ovsrsee their diaspora?

What is the matter with us?

Don't we have diplomats?

Do we know the meaning of that word?

Hint. It does not mean "derder/terter".

 

I don't understand your frustration. I don't see Aram or Karekin at the UN or visiting with diplomats in the place of Vartan or Robert or whoever. I don't see them visiting with Rumsfeld instead of Serge. Yes, they may go to the White House or meet with politicians, but not in their roles as "head of state" but rather as heads of the church.

 

I have a friend named Arka - does that mean he is a king?

[Arpa]

I will say this one more time and then I will SHUT UP.

The fact that they have done wonderful work, and there is no denying, does that justify having two full blown "papacies", I am not talking about patriarchates, bishoprics, dioceses or prelacies, we are talking TWO COMPLETE PAPACIES, if I can't get my message across then there must be something wrongwith my english.

Besides, I don't even give a rat's arse about church affairs, I am not even subsceibe to any organized church, but when people learning that I am Armenian ask me, with a hint of smirk if go to the Hashnak(sic) or the Dashnak church makes me want to hide under a big rock.

You ca wallow in your that mire all you want.

If we cannot address the issue as presented, I typed the issue in bold and large type, and instead bring testimonials as to how educated a person is, or how much each of our religious centers have and are contributing ... then perhaps each of those centers wgould be granted catholicossates and each of those highly talented clergy should be enthroned as Catholicoses...the more the merrier?

IGIVE UP

GOOD BYE

 

BTW, Karakash et al look where HH ARam I got his advanced education. AUB, my Alma Mater and NEST, the alma mater of the likes of the late Rev. Janbazian and Rev. Tootikian. If you don't know who the preceding are/were conduct a simple search.

 

Read his bio again.

Perhaps, with all his credentials Aram I should have been enthroned as the Amenayn Hayots, but we know why Garegin II was. Louise Simone with her millions had to have her "toy boy" there. As I stated at the onset, this a POLITICAL debate, has nothing to do with theology, the reason why I chose this subject topic and not "theology" or "church".

 

here is a segment;

 

Born in 1947, in Beirut, Lebanon, His Holiness Catholicos Aram I after studying at the Armenian Theological Seminary, Antelias, Lebanon and the Ecumenical Institute of Bossey, Geneva, Switzerland, received his M.Div. from the Near East School of Theology, his S.T.M. jointly from the American University of Beirut and Near East School of Theology, and his PhD from Fordham University in New York. He also holds several honorary degrees. His major areas of specialization are philosophy, systematic theology, and Near Eastern church history.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Arpa

[Boghos]

It doesn´t make sense in practical terms. But these types of issues have very little to do with common sense. As Arpa knows better than most, the historical roots of this question are deep and no simple solution exists. One could also argue that from a purely pragamtic point of view, economic efficiency, there is no reason for the multiplicity of Armenian insitutions, especially schools. But...

[karakash]

The simple answer to your question, Arpa, would be no. We do not need two catholicosates.

 

Oorakhatzar? jk

 

I don't think this would be that big of a "problem" if the Great House of Cilicia only had affiliations in the Middle East. The fact that the "abandoned" churches in the US were taken under the wings of Antelias in 1956 has now created a sad situation. If Antelias only had control of a few places - like Syria, Lebanon, Cyprus, Greece (I'm not quite sure exactly off the top of my head where it had a historical presence before the ARF took over).

 

Imagine what would happen if Torkom Manoogian began usurping churches in this former diocese. The Patriarchate in Jerusalem controls the churches in Jerusalem and Jordan. Etchmiadzin has absolutely no say in how elections are held there, how the churches are run, how the properties are managed - nothing. Jerusalem is like it's own empire - limited only by geographical boundaries. Constantinopel is the same way. If Antelias only had influence in the Middle East, I don't think this would be that big of a deal. they could still be a catholicosate because of historical reasons but would only have control over churches in that part of the world. This last sentence, Arpa, would be my detailed answer. I guess it would be a compromise - remain a catholicosate but with only limited jurisdiction.

 

If one day there is unity in the US and Canada, Antelias' financial and moral support will dwindle substantially. I think both sides are to blame for the unity problem - there is a lot of blame to go around. The older generations have died and the younger generation is not as structured in terms of allegiances to one side or the other. I know people from AYF who are now involved with the AGBU Young Professionals. I know people who have gone to Camp Haiastan and were in AYF but participated in the Armenian Assembly's internship program. The barriers between the sides are melting away.

 

There will be unity one day - not because people yearn for it or because of the hard work of unity committees but out of necessity. I think the churches are going to be so weakened by intermarriages, individuals who don't understand or speak Armenian, those that want the Divine Liturgy to be conducted in English, and a general apathy that a culmination of those factors will force the sides to unite. The hardliners in the Prelacy need to realize that the ARF still can have money and power and control but it doesn't have to be through the church. The hardliners in the Diocese need to start trusting their counterparts in the Prelacy, stop treating them like they don't exist, and starting looking at them as equals.

 

True story - almost 10 years ago, January 1996, during the first pontifical visit of Karekin I to the Eastern Diocese, a dinner was held at the Walforf Astoria in NYC. Those on the dias were introduced by the MC. Mesrob Ashjian was there and when he was introduced, it was as "Archbishop from New York, Mesrob Ashjian." All of the other arachnorts were given their positions - Vatche Hovsepian was introduced as "Primate of the Western Diocese, Archbishop Vatche Hovsepian." Same thing for Khajag Barsamian. It's that kind of disrespect that angers a lot of people and makes them bitter. The Diocese acts as if the Prelacy doesn't exist. The people of the Prelacy are just as much the children of the Armenian Church as those in the Diocese.

 

In terms of comparing the local churches - in three areas that I have personally witnessed - Watertown, Providence, and northern NJ - the prelacy churches do a better job of keeping the Armenian language in place and overall being "more Armenian." Compare St. Stephen's and St. James in Watertown; compare Sts. Vartanantz and St. Sahag and St. Mesrob in Providence; and compare Sts. Vartanantz and St. Thomas in NJ. I'm probably going to hear it about that comment so I'll end it there...