The Black Cat

[Takoush]

Sip:

 

I am halfway lost with Domino' explanations. I tried to follow it; but I think I understood it partly; but not totally. Did you understand it totally and completely?

Edited December 2, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Harut]

black cats give me heartburn...

[Sip]

Yes I understand him well. He is talking about what he calls "selectivity". It's not a very trivial subject to grasp and his English skills make it complicated so I'll try to help.

 

Forget about what we have talked about in this thread. Consider the chances that life would somehow appear (let's assume God didn't do it ) ... the chances that soooooo many things would line up properly for life to start, is very very very very low. Basically impossible. But the fact that we have life here on earth would tend to counter that since it has obviously happened. So the "selectivity" paradim, in this case, makes that very very very low probability of life actually having started by some random events irrelevant because we are already here and living ... out of potentially many many many universes and multiverses that may or may not exist --- that part is Fadixian (his name before was Domino, Domino etc so that's why I call it Fadixian) so you'll have to ask him to explain.

 

Now how this pretains to dreams and premonitions that come true. He says that if we look at the large picture, there may not be a correlation between dreams and premonitions and them becoming reality later. However, if we look at specific cases where it has happened (it's a very low chance but it certainly might) then the discussion takes a different shape and form.

 

So in other words, I am saying in general I don't think premonitions have anything significant to contribute to us. He says in the select cases where in fact a certain premonition has become true for a certain person, their views and understanding of the phenomena might be different than mine. And after all, if we have billions of people having millions of thoughts and dreams throught their lives, even some VERY low probability things will happen (like a random premonition coming true by sheer chance alone).

 

Now Quebecker, please correct me if I misunderstoond.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Sip

[Takoush]

Although I thought I understood it...lol...; but somehow I understood it better when you have explained it.

 

Thanks Sip.

 

Well anyway, he can correct us if your explanation is wrong.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

I think those of you that know me around here already know that I do NOT believe in any sort of hocus pocus, super-natural things, magic, God, reincarnation, spirits, ghosts, ESP, etc.

=====

As an example, I got a fortune cookie a few days ago that said I will get good news very soon. I walked back to the office and found out I had received a small grant from some company to do research for them. I can imagine some over-active mind jumping to all sorts of conclusions but to me, those two were entirely unconnected events, other than just their sheer temporal occurence order with respect to my self, which really doesn't mean much.

As to “fortune cookies”, Armenians do it better.

Armenjan had just arrived in America. He did not yet speak English.

Due to the bland diet he became afflicted with “tutq”(hemorrhoids). That Sunday he met his mentor at church and told him of his predicament. Fortunately there was an Armenian doctor in town. His mentor urged him to go see the doctor. Yup! It was bona fide “tutq”. The doctor asked Armen if he liked Haykakan sourj. Sure, Armen drank it every morning. The doctor advised him to take the sediment and apply every morning and come back in two weeks. (BTW. Coffee does contain tannins, an astringent with properties of shrinking etc.). After two week Armen goes back. The doctor asks him if he had followed his instructions. Yes. Had he done it that day. Yes. The doctor tells him to bend over. And he goes aahh, uuhhh, hmmm. Armen becomes impatient. “Doctor, doctor what is it? Is it serious?”

No, no the doctor says; “Երկու շաբաթ վերջ նամակ պիտի ստանաս/In two weeks you will receive a letter”.

:)

 

The best description of premonition I have seen is when the camel lays down his head, lowers its ear flaps, closes it eyes in anticipation of a sandstorm. It seems lower creatures may have extra sensory perceptions, like hearing and smell that we humans cannot quite comprehend.

Many animals will sense earthquakes and other natural phenomena long before we can.

As to prophecy, practiced by that idiot Nostradamus and his army of imposters who would say something stupid like “the yellow sun will rise in the east“. Duuhh! Aha China!!. “The red sun will set in the west”. Aha ! Russia!!

A prophecy is not worth the papyrus it is written on until it “comes to pass”, so we can all l say;

 

I TOLD YOU SO!!

Edited December 2, 2005 by Arpa

[DominO123]

Given that not so long ago, we were not understanding what I was telling, I'd assume my English has improved.

 

The thing I was pointing to, is that the selectivity effect is selectvity effect only in the context of the overall population and not in a localized section.

 

We could apply the selectivity effect explaination to negate the existance of any preestablished physical laws or even life in the context of the multiverse. Since sets of infinit universes co-exist, and that most of the universes we interact with are similar, our observation of anything, everything is biased. Our self-awarness is more located in a set of universes, which will make things appear as if they are ordered and that there are rules, when in fact, taking all the universes, we will have to conclude randomnity.

 

Comming to premonition, that they exist is a non-issue for those that have them. I had dreams, and they happened, and from the definition of what such dreams are, I did have such dreams. And for me personaly, it can be repeated, but contrary to the "confirmation of the hypothesis" it will fail, because in science, you must be able to repeat the results everytime you want, while in this cases, the wanting of repeating it, influence the results.

 

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/Allen_Press/MegaREG.pdf

 

As I said, claiming that they do not exist, is to distash the one that is measuring something from the system he is studying.

 

Yes I understand him well. He is talking about what he calls "selectivity". It's not a very trivial subject to grasp and his English skills make it complicated so I'll try to help.

 

Forget about what we have talked about in this thread. Consider the chances that life would somehow appear (let's assume God didn't do it ) ... the chances that soooooo many things would line up properly for life to start, is very very very very low. Basically impossible. But the fact that we have life here on earth would tend to counter that since it has obviously happened. So the "selectivity" paradim, in this case, makes that very very very low probability of life actually having started by some random events irrelevant because we are already here and living ... out of potentially many many many universes and multiverses that may or may not exist --- that part is Fadixian (his name before was Domino, Domino etc so that's why I call it Fadixian) so you'll have to ask him to explain.

 

Now how this pretains to dreams and premonitions that come true. He says that if we look at the large picture, there may not be a correlation between dreams and premonitions and them becoming reality later. However, if we look at specific cases where it has happened (it's a very low chance but it certainly might) then the discussion takes a different shape and form.

 

So in other words, I am saying in general I don't think premonitions have anything significant to contribute to us. He says in the select cases where in fact a certain premonition has become true for a certain person, their views and understanding of the phenomena might be different than mine. And after all, if we have billions of people having millions of thoughts and dreams throught their lives, even some VERY low probability things will happen (like a random premonition coming true by sheer chance alone).

 

Now Quebecker, please correct me if I misunderstoond.

[DominO123]

Nostradamus can not have predicted, for the simple reason that the society in which he lived was different than ours. Preconition have nothing to do with prophecies, using prophecies to negate preconition is to find an easy target.

 

There is no one system, your universe is not an absolute truth, if you think this, you're as much in the wrong as any adherant to a church.

 

As to “fortune cookies”, Armenians do it better.

Armenjan had just arrived in America. He did not yet speak English.

Due to the bland diet he became afflicted with “tutq”(hemorrhoids). That Sunday he met his mentor at church and told him of his predicament. Fortunately there was an Armenian doctor in town. His mentor urged him to go see the doctor. Yup! It was bona fide “tutq”. The doctor asked Armen if he liked Haykakan sourj. Sure, Armen drank it every morning. The doctor advised him to take the sediment and apply every morning and come back in two weeks. (BTW. Coffee does contain tannins, an astringent with properties of shrinking etc.). After two week Armen goes back. The doctor asks him if he had followed his instructions. Yes. Had he done it that day. Yes. The doctor tells him to bend over. And he goes aahh, uuhhh, hmmm. Armen becomes impatient. “Doctor, doctor what is it? Is it serious?”

No, no the doctor says; “Երկու շաբաթ վերջ նամակ պիտի ստանաս/In two weeks you will receive a letter”.

:)

 

The best description of premonition I have seen is when the camel lays down his head, lowers its ear flaps, closes it eyes in anticipation of a sandstorm. It seems lower creatures may have extra sensory perceptions, like hearing and smell that we humans cannot quite comprehend.

Many animals will sense earthquakes and other natural phenomena long before we can.

As to prophecy, practiced by that idiot Nostradamus and his army of imposters who would say something stupid like “the yellow sun will rise in the east“. Duuhh! Aha China!!. “The red sun will set in the west”. Aha ! Russia!!

A prophecy is not worth the papyrus it is written on until it “comes to pass”, so we can all l say;

 

I TOLD YOU SO!!

[Sip]

Talking of premonitions and such ...

 

Just 2 days ago I was thinking how my 22" monitor had lasted me a long time and I have never had a problem with it (Mitsubishi). And of course, today it died. ... I was just working on it and the picture went fuzzy.

[MosJan]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/india/images/300-p5098-20withplant071001.jpg

[Maral]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/india/images/300-p5098-20withplant071001.jpg

ohhh Mos NOW you did it!

Don't leave your house tomorrow!

[DominO123]

Talking of premonitions and such ...

 

Just 2 days ago I was thinking how my 22" monitor had lasted me a long time and I have never had a problem with it (Mitsubishi). And of course, today it died. ... I was just working on it and the picture went fuzzy.

 

 

You just changed universes, now you live in those where your monitor is dead.

Edited December 8, 2005 by QueBeceR

[flyhye]

I have a story I want to share.

 

This is around 96/97.

Three years had passed and my family got the 2nd respond from Dutch Government that they were going to deport us back to Iran. When we found out that we were going to get deported, we applied to come to US and we were waiting for answear.

We got a letter stating the date and time and that a taxi would pick us up from the camp take us to get our pictures taken, which were part of the deportation process. At the time we were staying at refugee camp in northern Holland.

The photgrapher took picture of my parents first. Then when he tried to take picture of my brother, pictures would come out blank. He took picture of my sister and me. Also blank. He replaced films a couple of times and tried again. All photos came out blank. The photographer said he never had a problem like that in his life.

He called someplace in the building and told us to come at next appointment which was two weeks later.

After a couple of days we got our green cards to come to US.

 

Those were some tough times. We got out well.

Some type of force was present. That's all I know.

Edited December 8, 2005 by flyhye

[Anoushik]

I have a story I want to share.

 

This is around 96/97.

Three years had passed and my family got the 2nd respond from Dutch Government that they were going to deport us back to Iran. When we found out that we were going to get deported, we applied to come to US and we were waiting for answear.

We got a letter stating the date and time and that a taxi would pick us up from the camp take us to get our pictures taken, which were part of the deportation process. At the time we were staying at refugee camp in northern Holland.

The photgrapher took picture of my parents first. Then when he tried to take picture of my brother, pictures would come out blank. He took picture of my sister and me. Also blank. He replaced films a couple of times and tried again. All photos came out blank. The photographer said he never had a problem like that in his life.

He called someplace in the building and told us to come at next appointment which was two weeks later.

After a couple of days we got our green cards to come to US.

Wow, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

By the way, I can totally relate to that whole deport/winning green cards thing

[armjan]

I have a story I want to share.

 

This is around 96/97.

Three years had passed and my family got the 2nd respond from Dutch Government that they were going to deport us back to Iran. When we found out that we were going to get deported, we applied to come to US and we were waiting for answear.

We got a letter stating the date and time and that a taxi would pick us up from the camp take us to get our pictures taken, which were part of the deportation process. At the time we were staying at refugee camp in northern Holland.

The photgrapher took picture of my parents first. Then when he tried to take picture of my brother, pictures would come out blank. He took picture of my sister and me. Also blank. He replaced films a couple of times and tried again. All photos came out blank. The photographer said he never had a problem like that in his life.

He called someplace in the building and told us to come at next appointment which was two weeks later.

After a couple of days we got our green cards to come to US.

 

Those were some tough times. We got out well.

Some type of force was present. That's all I know.

touching story man

[flyhye]

Wow, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

By the way, I can totally relate to that whole deport/winning green cards thing

 

Anoush were you in Holland too?

[Anoushik]

Anoush were you in Holland too?

No, I was in Germany... then Sweden...

[Sip]

Cat predicts deaths of nursing home residents

By Ray Henry

The Associated Press

Jul. 25, 2007 02:12 PM

 

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/pics/breaking/0725deathcat.jpg

 

Link to article

 

 

PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Oscar the cat seems to have an uncanny knack for predicting when nursing home patients are going to die, by curling up next to them during their final hours.

 

His accuracy, observed in 25 cases, has led the staff to call family members once he has chosen someone. It usually means they have less than four hours to live.

 

"He doesn't make too many mistakes. He seems to understand when patients are about to die," said Dr. David Dosa in an interview. He describes the phenomenon in a poignant essay in Thursday's issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

 

"Many family members take some solace from it. They appreciate the companionship that the cat provides for their dying loved one," said Dosa, a geriatrician and assistant professor of medicine at Brown University.

 

The 2-year-old feline was adopted as a kitten and grew up in a third-floor dementia unit at the Steere House Nursing and Rehabilitation Center. The facility treats people with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and other illnesses.

 

After about six months, the staff noticed Oscar would make his own rounds, just like the doctors and nurses. He'd sniff and observe patients, then sit beside people who would wind up dying in a few hours.

 

Dosa said Oscar seems to take his work seriously and is generally aloof. "This is not a cat that's friendly to people," he said.

 

Oscar is better at predicting death than the people who work there, said Dr. Joan Teno of Brown University, who treats patients at the nursing home and is an expert on care for the terminally ill

 

She was convinced of Oscar's talent when he made his 13th correct call. While observing one patient, Teno said she noticed the woman wasn't eating, was breathing with difficulty and that her legs had a bluish tinge, signs that often mean death is near.

 

Oscar wouldn't stay inside the room though, so Teno thought his streak was broken. Instead, it turned out the doctor's prediction was roughly 10 hours too early. Sure enough, during the patient's final two hours, nurses told Teno that Oscar joined the woman at her bedside.

 

Doctors say most of the people who get a visit from the sweet-faced, gray-and-white cat are so ill they probably don't know he's there, so patients aren't aware he's a harbinger of death. Most families are grateful for the advanced warning, although one wanted Oscar out of the room while a family member died. When Oscar is put outside, he paces and meows his displeasure. ( )

 

No one's certain if Oscar's behavior is scientifically significant or points to a cause. Teno wonders if the cat notices telltale scents or reads something into the behavior of the nurses who raised him.

 

Nicholas Dodman, who directs an animal behavioral clinic at the Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine and has read Dosa's article, said the only way to know is to carefully document how Oscar divides his time between the living and dying.

 

If Oscar really is a furry grim reaper, it's also possible his behavior could be driven by self-centered pleasures like a heated blanket placed on a dying person, Dodman said.

 

Nursing home staffers aren't concerned with explaining Oscar, so long as he gives families a better chance at saying goodbye to the dying.

 

Oscar recently received a wall plaque publicly commending his "compassionate hospice care."