Transliterating Foreign Words

[Gor-Gor]

Hey everyone. It's your resident EA novice.

 

As I understand and hear it, Eastern Armenian has some middle sounds for some of our consonants. Such that, for example, there's a sound for P (puir), B (ben/pen), and and P/B mix (pe/be).

 

Now, anytime I read a foreign word that is written in Eastern Armenian (be it on the streets of Yerevan, on the internet, etc), the writer will generally use the P/B mix (pe/be) to transliterate the P sound from English. My question is, why doesn't he just use the "puir" letter, as that is a clear P sound? For example, "pizza" is written as pe/be-ini-tsa-tsa-ayp. Why not use "puir" for the first letter, as the pe/be sound is not a clear P sound?

 

Of course this isn't limited to P/B, but for all the other middle sounds -- K/G, T/D, CH/J, TS/DZ.

 

For example: "Internet" is transliterated using "tuin/duin" instead of "to." I mean, we have a clear T sound in "to," so why use the T/D mix?

 

In some cases, I can understand the reasoning. "Coca Cola" is transliterated using the middle ken/gen letter. I understand this, since the English "C" is itself supposed to be a "soft k" sound.

 

I admit this is a selfish request, as it makes things much easier for me read and comprehend!! But besides that, it just makes more sense, I think.

[kakachik77]

most foreign words make it into Eastern Armenian through Russian that's why.

[Harut]

i don't know the exact reason, i can only speculate, but it's easier for me to say ինտերնետ, կոկա-կոլա, պիցցա than ինթերնեթ, քոքա-քոլա, փիցցա...

 

but as far as speculating... many of those foreign words don't reach armenian directly but through russian, and in russian there are no sounds փ, ք, թ.

 

another reason can be that many words, such as internet in this case, were used in armenian before, but not from english, but from french or russian, where it sounds տ and not թ.

 

another reason can be that many such words in english originated from other languages (french, latin, greek, etc..) where they sound with տ, պ, կ, such as pizza in this case, and in armenian they get their original pronounciations, even though they may become famous through english (america).

 

note that all armenian pronounciations here are in eastern armenian.

[nairi]

Gor, can you try using the translit under the reply box?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by p/b sound. EA has two distinct p sounds. The first one is what some linguists call an "ejective" and which in Armenian is known as "pe" (պ), and the other is "aspirated" and is known as "pyur" (փ).

 

/b/ (բ) is a distinct sound as well.

 

Maybe Arpa can say more about this, but from what I have observed, words with /pyur/ are often (but not always!) old loan words with /f/. For instance, philosophy (filosofi) became pilosopayutyun, with both p's being pyurs.

 

Also, from what I know, WA doesn't have ejectives the way EA has them. So it shouldn't be surprising that you are confusing the two p's and b, when for speakers of EA these are three very distinct sounds.

 

A while back, we were asked to listen to a Georgian lady and say whether we heard a c (ց) or a ts (ծ) and I was the only one in my group to get everything right in one go. Then again, I was the only one in the group who was familiar with these sounds. And I must admit that it was only then that I realized how difficult it is for "outsiders" to distinguish between these two sounds.

Edited February 12, 2005 by nairi

[Gor-Gor]

Thanks for all of your replies. I'm now satisfied with the reasoning behind it. It'd been bothering me for some time!

 

Nairi: I know it's difficult when I don't use the Armenian fonts, but I have tried and I have remained unsuccessful to get my computer to get it to work. I have an old computer with an old version of Windows running. But I've used copy & paste for this post.

 

To my ears, this is how it sounds:

 

բ - B

փ - P

պ - somewhere between B and P

 

Perhaps this is ludicrous to a native EA speaker, but I don't hear պ as simply a variant of the P sound. And that's where my confusion comes in. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me in that I am conditioned to hear պ as B, and so it doesn't really sound like a P to me.

 

Sometimes I also think that maybe փ in EA is slightly harsher/stronger than փ in WA. It's the only P sound we've got, so I think that over the years, the sound become slightly softer since it is easier on the mouth and there was no other sound that it would be infringing on (since, in my mind, if փ became softer in EA, it would begin to encroach on պ's sound.

 

What say you?

 

[edit: I can use the translator on my school computer! see the "Hayeren" thread for results! lol]

Edited February 15, 2005 by Gor-Gor

[nairi]

I can see your fonts as well!! Yippee!!!

 

Anyway, about the differences, can you tell the difference between the (potentially existing) words:

 

բատ

պատ

փատ

 

?

 

I would say that in terms of 'harshness', պ in EA is much harsher than փ. Pyur is aspirated (i.e. pronounced while releasing a lot of air), where pe is not. Պ is pronounced by culminating air in the throat and then releasing it all in one go, such that it almost sounds like an explosion.

 

The difference really is that բ is voiced and պ isn't. Voiced meaning that there is vibration in your throat (if you will). I think the reason you might sometimes hear a p/b instead of p is because in fast speech speakers of EA may accidently let out some voice while pronouncing p. Your observation and hearing are valid.

 

edit: And there is one more thing: you're obviously able to distinguish between the three sounds (no matter how you hear them), such that you wouldn't confuse a EA բ with a պ and փ. Obviously symbols in writing are very abstract in terms of recording the sounds that we actually make. The importance in speech is to try to make a distinction between these sounds so that the listener can also hear it.

Edited February 15, 2005 by nairi

[Arpa]

Thanks for all of your replies. I'm now satisfied with the reasoning behind it. It'd been bothering me for some time!

===

 

What say you?

 

[edit: I can use the translator on my school computer! see the "Hayeren" thread for results! lol]

style_images/master/snapback.png

No. It is no what we say. It is what they say.

Ther will be more about the subject.

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10...=0entry137010

 

The WA's may be willing to relinquish the "Ayp Pen Qim" in sake of "Ayb Ben Gim".

 

Will they give us the "Hyun" and the "E" v the "Ve" and'Ye" ?

Will they conform to the classical (read western) orthography rather than the Soviet (read Russian/Cyrillic), where Hrand become Grant, Harut becomes Arut/Artyom, Vahramian become Bagramian and so on).

We, the westerns have a point. We subscribe to Mashtots orthography, if not to phonetics. What is their's? Mashtotsky?

[kakachik77]

Arpa, just on a different note - the name Artyom is not associated in any shape or form to Armenian Harutyun/Harut, it's a completely different name. That one was kinda funny Artyom is also a Russian/Ukrainian basically Slavic name used by many nationalities in the former Soviet Union.

 

Also, I think Bagramian is Baghramian in Armenian (the sound as in the name Ghukas or Ghevond), I don't think it's a variation of Vahramian.

Edited February 16, 2005 by kakachik77

[Arpa]

Also, I think Bagramian is Baghramian in Armenian (the sound as in the name Ghukas or Ghevond), I don't think it's a variation of Vahramian.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

You may be right about the Artyom. And I was half right about Harut/Arut, just as Alexander Harutunyan the composer becomes Arutunyan just because there is no H in the Russian. Our H's either turn into G or are totally dropped. Which brings us to Vahram.

You will notice that Armenians don't have Bagram as a personal name. It only appears in surnames. The reason is that Vahram is also used in Persian as Bahram. Many B's turn into V in the Armenian, the best case may be Biainili into Van. At a step further the Persian Bahram is russified to Bagram, once again H to G. I don't know why Bagram becomes BaGHramian, this GH as you say, is not the same as in Ghukas/Lucas or Ghevond/Leontus. It may be a Turkish influence. Is it like Gharabagh to Garabagh?

 

As you say. This is only a sidenote. The gist of the article, if I understand correctly is to rediscover Armenian once again and if possible save it from, turkification, persification, russification and anglification.

[kakachik77]

Arpa, yes it's just like Gharabagh into Garabagh.

[nairi]

Will they conform to the classical (read western)

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Do you mean parskahayeren (PA)?

[Arpa]

Hey everyone. It's your resident EA novice.

=======.

 

For example: "Internet" is transliterated using "tuin/duin" instead of "to." I mean, we have a clear T sound in "to," so why use the T/D mix?

Sireli Gor Gor/Kor Kor,

Nairi, Harut and others have adequately addressed the cases of T/ Տ and F/Փ.

But when you bring the case of Tho/Թ, your rendition "to", be advised that that letter was never meant to sound like either D/Դ or T/Տ but it was solely devised as a counterpart to the Greek Theta, to sound like the English TH as in theory, the reason why we transliterate Thomas as Թովմաս,Thaddeus as Թադդէոս, Theme as Թեմա, Theater as Թատրոն and Թոնդրակas Thondrak.

For some reason we have lost the original pronunciation of that letter just as we have lost the W sound of hyun/Ւas in Barev/Barew, and in Yev/Yew/ԵՒ, perhaps an anagram of the Arabic/Persian Wa/Va.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Arpa