DominO123 Posted January 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 (edited) Oh and I already once installed Debian on a 68K Mac(an 68LC040 Mac upgraded to 68040). It took my years, but finaly it worked. I still have one of these, I wonder if it worth doing that again. EDIT: I forgot to add, I installed that one up on another machine. http://www.openbsd.org/mac68k.html But for this one, I won`t tell you how much time it took. It is embarassing. Edited January 29, 2005 by QueBeceR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Javas days are numbered. I have to tell you that the number of people who are moving to .NET will severely impact the Java community out there and developers who stay on Unix, Java, just C will have a harder and harder time finding jobs as time goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Javas days are numbered. I have to tell you that the number of people who are moving to .NET will severely impact the Java community out there and developers who stay on Unix, Java, just C will have a harder and harder time finding jobs as time goes by. style_images/master/snapback.png Another thing Bill Gates has succeeded in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 For a good reason Domino. It is very easy to work with. Unlike Java the developers can be of lower caliber yet the applications that they developer will work faster and better than those developed in Java and resources are less expansive. As an executive who has to make decisions on what platform to use to have a solid application at the lowest price possible it is hard to go with much else but .NET. (And I am strictly talking about business applications and not college or small startup company applications) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 The problem is that if all the applications I use migrate to Java I will probably denounce computers all together and go become a monk in Tibet. Unless I see processors being developed that can execute native Java byte code, anytime I hear Java I am going to immediately think WASTED performance. I am just looking at my system right now and I got around 3 Ghz pumping through the processor and a GIG of ram and it's still not performing that much better than my 486 with less than 1/20 of all those resources. Why? Because of all this wasted layers ... virtual machines and hardware abstraction layers and inter operable this and that. Basically, my problem is, that with all these widely varying architectures for computers, I do not think having a unifying software platform and forcing every architecture to execute the same "byte code" is a good thing. It sounds good in theory, but in reality it SUCKS. style_images/master/snapback.png It is true that the multiple layers of software have a negative impact on the usage of hardware resources and the overall performance, but that is a natural trend that will continue. Sostware has become more complex and it would be hard to develop and maintain future Software Systems without further architectural concepts and abstractions/layers! In any case, it has nothing to do with "bytecode" or Java - or XML in the near future! In fact, the same is true about C++and compiled Java. Also, some/most of the performance deterioration is due to poor engineering: hardware costs less than good engineering! Unfortunate but true! Have a nice day! PS I have two laptops with similar hardware characteristics; one has Redhat9, the other XP. I get a much better and stable performance on Redhat; despite the fact that I'm far more "abusive" with Redhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Javas days are numbered. I have to tell you that the number of people who are moving to .NET will severely impact the Java community out there and developers who stay on Unix, Java, just C will have a harder and harder time finding jobs as time goes by. style_images/master/snapback.png Azat, So what's the magic number? Shall we start the countdown? All technologies have a "numbered days!" We've been hearing the above "prediction" for a while now! The Industry was - and remains - in such a "desperate" and "confused" situation that anything would have been considered as the universal panacea...There will be some "corrections" - in the sense of the stock markets - and the enthusiasm will fade away! From a technical point of view, .NET is somewhere between J2SE and J2EE and can only replace J2SE and in some cases J2EE - for small to medium size projects/businesses. The .NET architecture/APIs are not robust enough to handle large projects and enterprise grade solutions! For the record, in my previous messages, by "Java" I meant J2SE only! In any case, for anyone who is considering to migrate to Linux or keep a mixed environment, .NET is not the preferred solution because it is NOT OS INDEPENDENT! PS. Considering the fact large scale projects last longer than small size projects, it may the case that Java will live longer than .NET! For a good reason Domino. It is very easy to work with. Unlike Java the developers can be of lower caliber yet the applications that they developer will work faster and better than those developed in Java and resources are less expansive. style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, it is easier to use than J2EE, but not J2SE! The industry have misused J2EE by using it in small/medium size projects! Later, they complained about it's complexity! How unusual! J2EE 3.0 is supposed to correct the issue and allow for lighter solutions. In any case, J2EE is not rivaled by .NET for large and enterprise grade projects! It's more complex for good reasons! As an executive who has to make decisions on what platform to use to have a solid application at the lowest price possible it is hard to go with much else but .NET. (And I am strictly talking about business applications and not college or small startup company applications) style_images/master/snapback.png Mostly in small to medium size businesses! Microsoft have so far failed - i.e. for the last 10+ years - to provide enterprise grade solutions. I admit that Microsoft platforms became more reliable and stable, but they are still unreliable for highly mission critical and enterprise grade solutions. I have an XP that I use occasionally, each time I try something a little complex it either fails or crashes! Microsoft is high maintenance, compared to UNIX! I don't want to say that Linux is as robust and stable than UNIX, but much more than Microsoft! Have a nice day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 I have an XP that I use occasionally, each time I try something a little complex it either fails or crashes! style_images/master/snapback.png My Windows XP hasn To say the truth, comparing Mandrake 8 and 9(hasn`t tried 10 yet), for me they were more unstable than Windows XP, and I am even not talking about video drivers issue that was making the system crash and lose X Windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 (edited) I'll reply in detail soon but I just wanted to say that I hope we are nerdy enough that we won't go down this line of "XP crashes" versus "Linux crashes" because in my experience, both kernels are quite stable. Whenever you say "crash", I hope you would be kind enough to specify what you mean by a crash ... a driver, an application, a random system stall/reset etc. And to add on top of this, if it is a random "crash", it is almost never the fault of the OS either in case of linux or XP. Edit #1: Also, making statements like "Mandrake performs better than XP" definitely needs to be elaborated on!!!! As in DOING WHAT? What other services are running in the background and how is this performance measured (gut feeling is also valid here ). Edit #2: By the way, I don't need to be convinced that Linux/Unix are far more superior to windows in multi-user enviornments. But Windows is very hard to beat in the single user "PC" context IMO. Edited January 30, 2005 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 hmmmmm Much of what you say is true, but I do like to add some comments. .NET is OS independent. There is a .NET compiler for the palm, Linux and I think Sun UX and HP UX are just around the corner. large scale project. I have to say coming from Candle and IBM I would never use java or .NET for enterprise applications(very large apps). c/c++ is the only way to go. However for the past year+ and continuing for another 18 months I am in the middle of a fairly large mainframe/vax/linux replacement project. We are moving everything over to .NET and SQ 2000 on Win 2003 and so far things are going very smooth. Today we do have a portion of our application on .NET and win 2000 Enterprise servers and really have no issues with them and do about 90 million dollars worth of business off those servers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) I'll reply in detail soon but I just wanted to say that I hope we are nerdy enough that we won't go down this line of "XP crashes" versus "Linux crashes" because in my experience, both kernels are quite stable. style_images/master/snapback.png As I have already mentioned, it is true that Microsoft platforms became far more stable than they used to be, at least for desktop applications - and some distributed - applications. My focus was the distributed ones! Let's come back to that later! Whenever you say "crash", I hope you would be kind enough to specify what you mean by a crash ... a driver, an application, a random system stall/reset etc. And to add on top of this, if it is a random "crash", it is almost never the fault of the OS either in case of linux or XP. Edit #1: Also, making statements like "Mandrake performs better than XP" definitely needs to be elaborated on!!!! As in DOING WHAT? What other services are running in the background and how is this performance measured (gut feeling is also valid here ). style_images/master/snapback.png For the record, my statement was: "I have an XP that I use occasionally, each time I try something a little complex it either fails or crashes! Microsoft is high maintenance, compared to UNIX! I don't want to say that Linux is as robust and stable than[as!] UNIX, but much more than Microsoft!" 1- It says "fails or crashes" 2- It had no mention of Mandrake. Maybe, you were replying to Domino! Yes, it was a hasty statement and now that you asked for an explanation, I'll do my best to explain myself. Let's call it "lazy explanation" - as in lazy evaluation! Let me first - briefly - describe the major components of my System/Physical Infrastructure. I have a wireless network that includes: 1- A File/Print Server that I use for backups, storage and printing: it's a Linux box (Redhat9.) Connected to a router that is Wireless Bridged to the main wireless router. 2- A "Cpu Server" that I use for CPU intensive tasks/Applications. A dual processor running Redhat Enterprise Server. Ethernet 100M wired connection to the main wireless router. 3- A laptop that I use as my main "desktop" running Redhat9. Wireless Client. 4- A laptop that I use occasionally running XP. We'll come back to it later. Wireless Client. 5- Two network hard drives that are managed by the File/Print Server - they don't have an embedded OS! Ethernet 100M connection to the same router as the File/Print Server. 6- A Multimedia Server - a Roku HD1000 - powered by an embedded Linux connected to my Stereo/Entertainment System. Wireless Bridged. 6- I'm planning to add a Universal Controller with embedded Linux. Wireless Client. http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/oct03/revi...nto/ipronto.htm 7- I'm planning to add a UPnP Media Broadcaster/Streamer. Did not make my choice yet because I only know of two products: one in development and the other is architecturally "closed!" I'm considering: HMS300 - in development - by Arcadyan: http://www.arcadyan.com/Products/Digital_Home.htm Also Linux based. Wireless Connection. I use the Xp laptop for the following: 1- Validate Microsoft Office Documents before I share them with others. Often I create the documents on Linux, but I prefer validating them. For the record, there has been FEW instances when the Linux proved to be more compatible!!!! But it's irrelevant! 2- RealPlayer/Rhapsody. Soon to be handled by a hardware Media Streamer/Broadcaster i.e. #7 above. 3- Occasionally scan/Photoshop. From time to time, I try to find a better usage of the under used Xp laptop. I tried to use it as a Backup Manager and it miserably failed because it could not properly handle the networked resources. It proved to be so unreliable and failed so frequently that I had to kill the project. Bacula - an open source - handles it smoothly. Bacula is not easy to configure and requires a good technical background, but all distributed solutions involving heterogeneous environments do! I tried to use it as a Media Server and again it failed for the same reasons. etc. etc. My definition of a "complex" application is not a desktop application that executes complex algorithms/tasks such as the ones mentioned by Domino: 1- Often they exercise a limited number of OS modules. 2- Their INTERACTION with the OS is relatively straightforward 3- Their execution model is relatively straightforward I Characterize a "complex" applications as follows: 1- Distributed 2- Multitasking/Asynchronous execution of different sub-systems 3- IPC 4- Heterogeneous environments 5- Exercise many aspects of the OS 6-...anything I forgot! I hope that the above did clarify my hasty statement! Edit #2: By the way, I don't need to be convinced that Linux/Unix are far more superior to windows in multi-user environments. But Windows is very hard to beat in the single user "PC" context IMO. style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, Microsoft platforms are good enough for the home and desktop applications! Honestly, initially, I did not know why Domino was trying to migrate to Linux. After his claim that he's happy with Microsoft Xp, I'm starting to think that he has too much free time to waste if he's considering to replace a system that works for him! Edited January 31, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) hmmmmm Much of what you say is true, but I do like to add some comments. .NET is OS independent. There is a .NET compiler for the palm, Linux and I think Sun UX and HP UX are just around the corner. style_images/master/snapback.png That is what Microsoft advertises! I would like to see a couple of enterprise grade applications before I pay any attention to that claim! There exists also compilers for C/C++ - and even FORTRAN - for all existing Operating Systems, but - as you know - that does not guarantee portability of non-trivial applications! I will have to remind that we are not comparing languages but Application Development Frameworks i.e. .NET vs. J2SE/J2EE. large scale project. I have to say coming from Candle and IBM I would never use java or .NET for enterprise applications(very large apps). c/c++ is the only way to go. style_images/master/snapback.png Let's leave Candle aside: it is not an Application Development Framework and let's focus on .NET vs J2SE/J2EE. Besides, I don't want to upset Sasun! As for Websphere - IBM's Application Server and flagship product - it is a J2EE Framework! Again C/C++ has its uses but do you know of any CURRENTLY existing Application Development Framework based on C/C++? C/C++ has still a market in the back-end, system level Software development, but not Application Development! However for the past year+ and continuing for another 18 months I am in the middle of a fairly large mainframe/vax/linux replacement project. We are moving everything over to .NET and SQ 2000 on Win 2003 and so far things are going very smooth. style_images/master/snapback.png 1- Isn't too early to call? 2- I need to better understand understand the Architecture before I make an assessment 3- I wish you success 4- That should not mean that you couldn't have equally succeeded with plain C/C++, J2SE only or with a J2EE ! Today we do have a portion of our application on .NET and win 2000 Enterprise servers and really have no issues with them and do about 90 million dollars worth of business off those servers. style_images/master/snapback.png Again, I need to understand the Architecture. $90M does not tell me anything about the Functional and/or Technical Architecture. Nor the use cases. There exists FORTRAN/COBOL applications that generate comparable revenues. There exists very sophisticated Applications that do not generate $90K Edited January 31, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Let's leave Candle aside: it is not an Application Development Framework and let's focus on .NET vs J2SE/J2EE. Besides, I don't want to upset Sasun! style_images/master/snapback.png That's a good idea. You nerds leave my candle alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) Sip, For the record: Most storage is accessible on all machines: NFS/Samba Also, as for the performance: 1- I have noticed that Linux handles the network in a more efficient way i.e. download a huge file and compare the performance. 2- Disk IO, page faults etc are better handled on UNIX/Linux 3- Task scheduling is more robust. etc. etc. I have to go! Edited January 31, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 I did not know why Domino was trying to migrate to Linux. After his claim that he's happy with Microsoft Xp, I'm starting to think that he has too much free time to waste if he's considering to replace a system that works for him! style_images/master/snapback.png The reason being that I am slowly changing my existing programs to GNU equivalents. I have enough of searching serial numbers for pirated softwares, or hacks, and even my windows is pirated. I want an all clean environment and nothing to worry about, so I will give Mandrake another chance. I just hope the graphic drivers are better supported, and since I have a new videocard... I said to myself why not. I will still have a Windows XP system, for the few programs and games that there is no alternatives, a system that won't be connected to the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Let's leave Candle aside: it is not an Application Development Framework and let's focus on .NET vs J2SE/J2EE. Besides, I don't want to upset Sasun! style_images/master/snapback.png hehehehe Siamanto jan, I did not mean after using Candle and IBM products but rather after working at both companies on Enterprise applications for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 BTW: Candle did develop a framework of its own but it failed miserable. it was called Roma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Siamanto jan, I did not mean after using Candle and IBM products but rather after working at both companies on Enterprise applications for both. style_images/master/snapback.png Azat, Thank you for the clarification and correction! Yes, I did understand it as "after using." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Ok it's July 2007 now and I have one question: WTF is "JAVA"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 26, 2019 Report Share Posted August 26, 2019 It's fun to go back and re-read computery pontifications after like 15 years ... amazing how much is still the same, but also how much is so different.Linux as a pc os is dead to me after fighting it for 20+ years with the same problems lingering the whole time.Windows still kicks ass though Microsoft has sort of become a "who cares" much like the PC has in the home.Java ... still sucks for writing servers but mobile apps have no doubt moved to it thanks to Android.The kernel is still linux-based aka written in c/c++Java garbage collection still can kick your ass if you are writing a performance-driven server .. for most other non-critical servers, all these languages have come a looooong way and they are all starting to look the same ... and this is not really a good thing. Too much magic has made things easy to write but sometimes impossible to understand and debug...Never-the-less, this thread was fun read (at least for me) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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