Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 That is the main problem here. Just because it is written, and just because independent authors have arrived at similar conclusions, doesn't make it real. Many cultures for example arrived at "theistic" models to explain things around them independently. That doesn't make their views valid because humans can use the same type of baseless and faulty logic to arrive at similar conclusions. There must be a real way to validate any claim. And by simply requiring one to build a special vision and special understanding in order to understand this special thing tells me that the special thing is more a figment of our "specially created and tuned visions" than any reality. style_images/master/snapback.png By suggesting to read books I was only trying to answer that though you can't easily find 10 people to question you can read books by different people who give such accounts. But once again, the real way to validate is to see it yourself. What better validation ther can be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Then why don't we want to? Especially when we constantly search for excitement and adventure, why don't we want to get deeper into that invisible world? style_images/master/snapback.png Because we have lost our faith, "sinned," thrown out of "Paradise" and reduced to our earthly condition! Fortunately, as we speak, our engineers and scientists are busy designing and testing new miracle procedures, techniques and substances that will SOON revolutionize our lives and allow us to recover the lost Eden! The financing is available, the marketing team in place and the demand is REAL; we just need to find the formula! Thank you for your visit. Please check us again! Thank you! Your Happiness is important to us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I don't believe in things that a person cannot show me. style_images/master/snapback.png Do you believe in the logical nature and/or consistency of Mathematics? If you do, please keep in mind that it can't be shown. (Godel) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Because we have lost our faith, "sinned," thrown out of "Paradise" and reduced to our earthly condition! Fortunately, as we speak, our engineers and scientists are busy designing and testing new miracle procedures, techniques and substances that will SOON revolutionize our lives and allow us to recover the lost Eden! The financing is available, the marketing team in place and the demand is REAL; we just need to find the formula! Thank you for your visit. Please check us again! Thank you! Your Happiness is important to us! style_images/master/snapback.png In other words: we don't because we still don't know how to and still looking for an ersatz of our faith: it's just a matter of time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nané Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 That is where we disagree. I just can't see any evidence of that. Where is a child's soul before it is born? Why isn't it as aware of its "self" as when it is older? Where does the soul go after death? What medium transfers it in space? If it is beyond our regular time and space, what evidence is there to support this? Why am I supposed to believe this other than simply because someone says so? style_images/master/snapback.png Unfortunately there is no concrete evidence. The soul comes from God and returns to God after death. What do you mean by self? If you mean soul, I would say it's more aware of it when just born. You don't HAVE to believe anything Sip jan. I'm just stating what I believe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts postulated the soul was material and therefore had mass, ergo a measurable drop in the weight of the deceased would be noted at the moment this essence parted ways with the physical remains. He conducted an experiment (which has not been given much credit due to valid reasons) and concluded that the soul weighs 21 grams. I don't take this figure too seriously but it is an interesting idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) Sasun would 100 people who have these "eyes" with which they can see this God be able to identify the exact same person as God. style_images/master/snapback.png No problem! I can recognize God with my eyes closed! But, when I open them, he/she is already gone! What I mean is that we all can identify an apple or Movses(if we all have met him few times) or a car or any object that exists. Will these 100 people be able the same God.(since there is one right?) I have a feeling that if there was a study the one God that these people identify will be vastly different from one another because to me it is a figure in their imagination and it has evolved in their head over time style_images/master/snapback.png I'm not religious and the existence - or non-existence -of God is a matter of definition i.e. depends on the definition of God. I have the impression that you are a bit caricaturizing the concept of God! Not everything that matters to us HUMANS needs to be verifiable, Not everything that matters to us HUMANS needs to be consistent in space-time, Not everything that matters to us HUMANS needs to exists outside of us, HUMANS! etc. etc. We are HUMANS! Edited January 12, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 yes ban chem asum style_images/master/snapback.png Vorovhedev, iraganoutian metch, @selik pan tchi ga! Payts, mart araradz@ anasun tche: g@ sire khosil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Siamanto, I like your free thinking attitude You don't exhibit atheistic dogmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Oh Sip, speaking of predictions. You would be surprised to learn that ancient Hindu scriptures exist giving some spectacular scientific discoveries about the physical world done thousands of years ago. Among them knowledge about atomic structure, electricity, planetary system, and things of that nature. Those discoveries were done without use of any instruments, merely by spritiual practice and concentration, in other words only mind was used. But IMO the most fundamental finding of Yogis is the understanding of the world. So according to this theory, 1) matter is not matter per se but instead very tiny vibrations of energy that appear to us as matter, 2) energy is not energy per se but instead vibrations of thoughts/ consciousness, 3) all consciousness/thoughts originate from one Absolute being. In other words, all creation is God's thoughts and imagination taking shape as cosmos and all things that exist. It is the same to say that the objects that we think are objects are in fact God's mind stuff. Now I will not try to convince you about the whole theory, but I would like to point your attention to point number 1. This is the key component of the modern string theory in physics that came only a few decades ago, but it was known since times immemorial to Yogis (aka practitioners of Spiritual Science). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Very interesting discussion. Anoushik, ask yourself - why don't you want to? Are you busy? Is it something unimportant? Uninterersting, boring, difficult, scary, etc...? style_images/master/snapback.png Sasun, I don't think it's scary; I think it's fascinating. But how many countless number of people throughout the centuries have really wondered and wanted to have some kind of contact with the invisible world, even just for the sake to understand more about our own existance? How many philosophers and theologians have ponded about the question of God and the angels? And not to mention that every single person who is born in this world constantly questions about the meaning of life, wonders what's out there, and yearns to have some kind of a sign that we are not really alone? ...Yet nothing happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) Very interesting discussion. Sasun, I don't think it's scary; I think it's fascinating. But how many countless number of people throughout the centuries have really wondered and wanted to have some kind of contact with the invisible world, even just for the sake to understand more about our own existance? How many philosophers and theologians have ponded about the question of God and the angels? And not to mention that every single person who is born in this world constantly questions about the meaning of life, wonders what's out there, and yearns to have some kind of a sign that we are not really alone? ...Yet nothing happens. style_images/master/snapback.png Anoushik, it is said that those who seek will find. Although it was not said, I believe those who don't seek don't find So, you are saying nothing happens. But why are you expecting something to happen, and what kind of things would you like to happen? Another way to look at it, why not make it happen yourself? Those numerous people that you are mentioning, they have sought and found if not all at least something. I believe everyone has some understanding that has some truth in it, some know more, some less. I think the right attitude is just to try to know more and more all the time. In other words keep seeking Edit: I forgot to mention. God has made it not so easy to know things, but at the same time he has left many hints in nature so we don't get completely lost and oblivious. Edited January 12, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Those numerous people that you are mentioning, they have sought and found if not all at least something. I believe everyone has some understanding that has some truth in it, some know more, some less. I think the right attitude is just to try to know more and more all the time. In other words keep seeking style_images/master/snapback.png Sasun, I think the more people sought the less convinced they became about God's existence. I think eventually all will agree that the idea of a fatherly God was just a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sasun, I think the more people sought the less convinced they became about God's existence. I think eventually all will agree that the idea of a fatherly God was just a myth. style_images/master/snapback.png Anoushik, it seems to me that we are talking about different people. Your people sought and became less convinced, and my people sought and became more convinced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Anoushik, it seems to me that we are talking about different people. Your people sought and became less convinced, and my people sought and became more convinced style_images/master/snapback.png How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 How? style_images/master/snapback.png What do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 What do you mean? style_images/master/snapback.png We are getting back to the old ongoing discussion about God and spirituality. I don't need it right now; I'm too tired. Maybe I need to be in the dark for a while myself to clear my thoughts. Just one last question: Sasun, do you believe in a "fatherly" God? A God who looks out to the humans and takes care of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Just one last question: Sasun, do you believe in a "fatherly" God? A God who looks out to the humans and takes care of them? style_images/master/snapback.png Yes Anoushik. Think about it, every time you breath in that's an evidence that God cares about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sasun, I think the more people sought the less convinced they became about God's existence. I think eventually all will agree that the idea of a fatherly God was just a myth. style_images/master/snapback.png Some may say that your ideas dont exhibit christian dogmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Yes Anoushik. Think about it, every time you breath in that's an evidence that God cares about you. style_images/master/snapback.png Is this why he let 1.5 million Armenians die and also 20 million Russians and 150 thousand in the recent Tsunami? My this God really cares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Some may say that your ideas dont exhibit christian dogmas. style_images/master/snapback.png I'm an atheist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Is this why he let 1.5 million Armenians die and also 20 million Russians and 150 thousand in the recent Tsunami? My this God really cares style_images/master/snapback.png What about the kids who are forced into prostitution daily and now this same danger awaits the orphans from the Tsunami disaster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Is this why he let 1.5 million Armenians die and also 20 million Russians and 150 thousand in the recent Tsunami? My this God really cares style_images/master/snapback.png Azat, let's be objective and count both lives and deaths OK? So there are as many deaths as lives. Those millions of people who died lived prior to that, so why don't you mention that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 WHAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 WHAT? style_images/master/snapback.png Azat jan, what I am saying is this. You would like to complain about people that died, and point out that God does not care. But I would like to remind you that life is not granted, it is a gift from God. Why not mention that too? In the end we all die, God gave us life and took it. As simple as that. Well, this is not my theology, but I think it is a fair way of thinking, rather than singling out the negative parts of the world only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Well I disagree. What a BARBARIC way to take peoples life away... But that is what I expect from God and his followers. If you want to learn more read about the crusades and how the Spanish under the flagship of God converted Incas and Mayas to God believers. But then again for you I am sure you think since God gave them life God can punish then and take it away. Anyways, I guess neither am I going to learn anything new from this discussion nor are you. So I will go on with my life without believing in fairytales until someone can show me solid proof. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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