MosJan Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 yes ban chem asum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) Soul is your inner dept as long as you are alive.. It moves you, the source of emotional world in the body. I can go on and its just my belief. There are no right or wrong answers, everyone has his/her own. style_images/master/snapback.png Of course there are right and wrong answers here! What possible reason other than our wild imagination do we have to believe there is this "soul"? No one has any evidence on what this soul is, where this soul may come from and where it may go ... therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that whatever it is, assuming even such a thing exists, is it starts, develops, and ends with every individual life. But then again, for every reasonable conclusion, there are countless unreasonable conclusions with some being much wilder, poetic, philosophically pleasing, etc than the others. Edit: By the way, Nefertiti, I agree with you on "soul", I think. So just thought to clarify that as I wasn't arguing against what you said about soul. Edited January 12, 2005 by Seapahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sasun, I'll tell you what the problem is with your spirituality model. It is not testable. You say one will see if one opens his or her spiritual eye and start to see ... well, that is not how science works. Science can predict things and it is testable. The spiritual model does not predict anything and is not testable and therefore is useless. But I am saying that the invisible worlds are testible too. I am stating that you, Azat and me also can see it. If that happened isn't it a successful test? Now, how do you test? That's not simple. I can't show you an atom, can I? That's not simple. You need a microscope. And I can't show you an electron, you need an even more powerful microscope. So, in other words, effort must be made to see, you need an instrument called a microscope. Likewise you need the instrument to see the spiritual things, and that instrument is your own spiritual eye which is located between your eyebrows. Opening the spritual eye is not a joke or something easily accomplishable, but it is doable. All those who have opened it see the same things. Had they been seeing different things we could have doubted that they are imagining things. When I am saying the same things, it doesn't mean they see the same flower, for example. They see the same worlds, which have the same characteristics and the same inhabitants, not necessarily the same exact things. And that is what I believe Azat means by "show me". He doesn't mean show me as in explain something that has already occured, but "show me" as in predict the outcome of something non trivial using spirituality. I highly doubt you or anyone else can do with spirituality what one can do with science. Call it "physical" if you wish but I would say the opposite of physical in this sense is "imaginary". style_images/master/snapback.png There are many testimonies of the predictions of spirituality. You can actually predict. In a high meditative state called Samadhi ( a state where all thoughts and senses have been stopped for a prolonged period) man starts to perceive reality without the use of the senses or sense organs. In that state whatever is perceived, whatever you can see happens at a later time in the physical world. There is a lot more to the spiritual science, and if you read about it you will understand why it is called science rather than something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefertiti Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 just this time? style_images/master/snapback.png in everything, du inchitses xabar? Mosoin hartsra kasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sasun would 100 people who have these "eyes" with which they can see this God be able to identify the exact same person as God. What I mean is that we all can identify an apple or Movses(if we all have met him few times) or a car or any object that exists. Will these 100 people be able the same God.(since there is one right?) I have a feeling that if there was a study the one God that these people identify will be vastly different from one another because to me it is a figure in their imagination and it has evolved in their head over time style_images/master/snapback.png God is different. The invisible worlds are easier to see than God. If one is much advanced to see God, God can appear in any form, because God does not have a fixed form (had it been fixed it would not be God). Therefore everyone will see God differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 its very obvious reality and imagination.. Sasun jan I can refer you to some people whose imagination will blow your mind, but they are heavily on drugs.. style_images/master/snapback.png Nefertiti jan, I would rather not be referred to drug users I am not talking about drugs at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefertiti Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 But then again, for every reasonable conclusion, there are countless unreasonable conclusions with some being much wilder, poetic, philosophically pleasing, etc than the others. style_images/master/snapback.png agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefertiti Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Nefertiti jan, I would rather not be referred to drug users I am not talking about drugs at all. style_images/master/snapback.png its was a joke.. that's why I next to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 its was a joke.. that's why I next to it style_images/master/snapback.png I know, I also used next to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefertiti Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I know, I also used next to it style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I feel a group hug coming on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefertiti Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I feel a group hug coming on! style_images/master/snapback.png and you run away? its a blessing! stay still! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 God is different. The invisible worlds are easier to see than God. If one is much advanced to see God, God can appear in any form, because God does not have a fixed form (had it been fixed it would not be God). Therefore everyone will see God differently. style_images/master/snapback.png Okay, not God, take some other object that is invisible to me but is visible to all these folks. Will they all be able to identify this thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 and you run away? its a blessing! stay still! Not with Azat and Sasun around ... the ratio just ain't right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I was told I'm saying nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Okay, not God, take some other object that is invisible to me but is visible to all these folks. Will they all be able to identify this thing? style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, but not completely. They can write volumes about the invisible worlds and the laws under which they operate, all kinds of descriptions, what exists there, who existst there, why, how. They can also tell you how they see it, and how you can develop such vision. They can also explain to you in what ways is ones spiritual vision developed, they can help you develop your vision. But the only thing they won't do it is to make you see it, with some exceptions. You will have to practice and gradually develop your own vision. That's not because they are not generous, but because you are not ready. Your psychic state and mental state are not strong enough, you may incur very serious health problems if someone "forcefully" opens your spiritual eye (it is possible to open in such a way too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nané Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sasun, I'm impressed with your train of thought. I'm with you so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nané Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 No one has any evidence on what this soul is, where this soul may come from and where it may go ... therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that whatever it is, assuming even such a thing exists, is it starts, develops, and ends with every individual life. style_images/master/snapback.png The soul does not develop, nor does it end ... it just exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sasun, I'm impressed with your train of thought. I'm with you so far style_images/master/snapback.png I am glad to know that Sulamita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Yes, but not completely. They can write volumes about the invisible worlds and the laws under which they operate, all kinds of descriptions, what exists there, who existst there, why, how. They can also tell you how they see it, and how you can develop such vision. They can also explain to you in what ways is ones spiritual vision developed, they can help you develop your vision. But the only thing they won't do it is to make you see it, with some exceptions. You will have to practice and gradually develop your own vision. That's not because they are not generous, but because you are not ready. Your psychic state and mental state are not strong enough, you may incur very serious health problems if someone "forcefully" opens your spiritual eye (it is possible to open in such a way too). style_images/master/snapback.png I dont want to or feel the need to see these "things". But is there one item you can identify that 10 other will see as well? BTW, you mentioned that one a few can see God, so are you saying that majority of religious people are liars when they say that they see visions of God and they talk to God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I ask because I want to go and ask 10 religious friend to draw or id that same item and see how close they are to each other. Because if these "things" are different for each that alone is proof that it is all in their heads and not real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I dont want to or feel the need to see these "things". But is there one item you can identify that 10 other will see as well? Well, one thing could be that in higher astral worlds (invisible to human eye, not the starry night) people have bodies that are composed of light-like matter but it is not matter, though it looks like matter. There a primary way of enjoyment is fantastic visual effects. All senses can be concentrated through light. I doubt you will easily find 10 people who have seen and can verify (I haven't) but if you read some books you will be surprised to find that independent sources are telling pretty much the same thing in different words. BTW, you mentioned that one a few can see God, so are you saying that majority of religious people are liars when they say that they see visions of God and they talk to God? style_images/master/snapback.png Talking to, seeing God once in a lifetime or a few times is different from talking and seeing all the time whenever you wish. Only a few can do the latter but more people have small experiences of divine communion. Can a religious person lie? Yes. Do they all lie? I don't think so. Again if you spend some time on this subject and read some accounts of God realized masters then you will see they are saying pretty much the same thing, while many religious people will claim who knows what. It is often easy to tell who lies and who doesn't, even by the way they behave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 ... but if you read some books you will be surprised to find that independent sources are telling pretty much the same thing in different words. That is the main problem here. Just because it is written, and just because independent authors have arrived at similar conclusions, doesn't make it real. Many cultures for example arrived at "theistic" models to explain things around them independently. That doesn't make their views valid because humans can use the same type of baseless and faulty logic to arrive at similar conclusions. There must be a real way to validate any claim. And by simply requiring one to build a special vision and special understanding in order to understand this special thing tells me that the special thing is more a figment of our "specially created and tuned visions" than any reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 The soul does not develop, nor does it end ... it just exists. style_images/master/snapback.png That is where we disagree. I just can't see any evidence of that. Where is a child's soul before it is born? Why isn't it as aware of its "self" as when it is older? Where does the soul go after death? What medium transfers it in space? If it is beyond our regular time and space, what evidence is there to support this? Why am I supposed to believe this other than simply because someone says so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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