marco

Dear Nairi, I agree. There is no doubt that you have to become pickier and more selective as you consider someone for a long term relationship. As far as I am concerned, your right, I have had relationships short term and long term with a lot of different women, and if I were a girl, I would have a tough time with it! But, I cant go back into time and change my testosterone driven experiences with women, so I continue. I just hope the topic will never come up with my wife! lol In all seriousness, the fact is that in my culture, it really is not important what a guys past is unless he doesnt continue with such after marriage. For a girl its different. There is definitely a double standard. Anyhow, its time for me to pick up my hot, middle eastern, virgin date! lol Where are the virgins? lets hear from you.

Such differences in opinion are great. Everyone rightfully should have their preferences, and if everyone prefered virgins for marriage then I guess non-virgins would have a tough time getting married. Of course the opposite is true as well. Diversity is what keeps things in balance. What I find somewhat interesting and surely welcoming is the open mindedness of most here. The Armenian fellows I had a chance to meet are definitely a lot more opinionated on this subject and a lot more 'traditional' or 'conservative' than the views expressed here. Again the benefit of diversity. Someone had said I and others put women arbitrarily into some categories, which is not true. I think surely there are some girls that are marriage material and others that arent. This is not to say that non-virgins are drug abusers or anything of that sort, it is more a preference that I guess gets instilled from culture and family where importance is placed on virginity. My friends who are married, at least the ones from middle eastern backgrounds all married virgin girls because virginity was expected and I am sure they would not have gotton married had the girl not been a virgin. Unless of course a previous marriage. Anyhow my American friends couldnt give a damn about virginity, eventhough if they had the choice they say they would prefer a virgin but in todays society they are a very rare breed and so cannot expect it. Finally, this virginity concept is surely not so blase as it has been made to appear here. There are a number of studies on the epidemiology of sexual diseases and sexual attitudes of men and women in Armenia that are readily available on the internet. It is interesting to see that eventhough sex is not an openly discussed subject, women respond in these studies the importance of being a virgin for their husbands, and where this requirement is not necessary for the men. This of course is typical throughout the middle east, and sure its a double standard but I think it is due to the differences in expectations and what each partner is expected to bring to the marriage. No one can doubt that not too long in history virginity before marriage was looked at as a noble, cherised, necessary quality in a woman. I understand things have changed in society, but surely there are some things which that are worth maintaining. And nairi, there is no need to get personal, this topic is not specific to anything or anyone.

Intersting to say the least! I have my own opinion on this matter and to an extent it sides with Tigrannes (to an extent), however with a more personal explanation. Eventhough I am not Armenian, and have been born and raised in the US I have maintained a certain amount of my culture from Iran. To a certain extent there are many similarities between our cultures, including the concept of virginity. The thing is, that eventhough virginity or lack thereof may seem as a trivial and I admit an unrecognized component of a women, there are certain inherent aspects that makes one think a little deeper into the issue. I myself am a very open minded guy, and my own opinion stemmed from an experience some time ago. Anyhow when it comes to marriage at least I would think that there is a lot more to the story, namely it is a marriage between two families as well as the guy and the girl. Also, I would think that marriage is surely built on a substantiated foundation such as religion, character, values etc, to ensure as close a match as possible to ensure (or hope) for longeivity especially in an era with 60% combined divorce and separation rate. So, where does virginity come into the picture? Well, in my opinion virginity can be looked at as kind of a 'guage' on a persons social experiences and hence character. Someone who is a virgin (by choice or circumstance), is more likely to not have either been presented with such options, and/or strong enough to resist sexual advances from others, and I think is more of a character quality in the latter case, and of course generally holds true in the opposite scenario as well. It may seem only natural that some men prefer a women who has not had any experience with the opposite sex either in the context of a sexual or emotional relationship for that matter and there are others who dont mind. Now a personal truth, I am in my mid twenties and during my 'dating career' have met a lot of women of all types. My experience in short, was a short while back I was sitting with a beautiful Greek girlfriend of 2 years watching a movie on my couch on a typical Sunday afternoon. I had my hand on her bottom and she had hers on my thigh. There came a moment, unbenounced to me, that questions started running through my mind out of the blue. Such as I wonder how many other guys must have stroked her bottom as I had? I wonder how many guys has she shown the same affection to as she was showing to me? I wonder how many guys she has truly been intimate with, and so on and so forth. I knew she hadnt been a virgin, and these thoughts were completely sporadic and I am sure odd to say the least. Unfortunately, I got turned off this completely gorgeous girl, who was perfect in almost every way. I couldnt understand it or explain it, except for the fact that I didnt feel or look at her the same. I actually got disgusted, and because we were contemplating marriage, this was a thought that was running through my mind every time I had seen her after that moment. I know this may sound crazy but my friend didnt help the issue by stating 'Your children will pass through the same canal that other men found pleasure in". True, and definitely somewhat disturbing and a childish cooties type of statement. But it was deeper than that, in my opinion it boiled down to preference and character. Now I wasnt a virgin, completely understand but in this case she had no problem with me. It came to a point that I had to end the relationship with her, because I surely woulnt be able to live the rest of my life with that knowledge and thoughts of her having been with and sharing the same special moments with me with other guys. Maybe it was the middle eastern mentality that came out of me, but I surely know that this was a defining moment in this virginity question. Now, considering that I myself am not a virgin, I of all people probably dont deserve one. But nevertheless, for me it does make a difference. Nowadays, when I do meet a girl, virginity is something I do consider. It is a completely personal decision and choice. Everyone has their own opinions. However, I dont think I would feel happy or comfortable knowing that my wife was the promiscuous of the bunch, or whispered sweet whispers to other men before me, it just doesnt seem special enough for me. Tigrannes is right when he says that children learn from their mothers, and I dont think I would feel comfortable in my children continuing a non-virginity rampage that I myself in retrospect regret for myself. Nevertheless, just my thoughts, I dont agree with killing anyone if they are not virgins as one had aluded to before. But it is a preference and had I the choice between a virgin and a non-virgin I would choose the non-virgin especially considering there is an increased likelihood that she is not carrying any baggage from some sorted lost love, ex-boyfriend, bitterness on life, relationships and the whole works. Just my two cents! Interesting opinions thus far!

Virgins? This post has been edited by marco on Aug 3 2003, 11:40 PM --- There was a serious question here at some point and for some reason Marco has removed it. --Sip

Dear Nairi Thanks for your reply. I did meet her mother once, and had a respectable relationship with her. I spoke to her mother twice both on cordial terms. Both her parents are extremely strict in every way. They forbid their daughter to be out past 10 pm and control her every movement (Nothing wrong with that), the ultimate in traditional, strict parents. In my first communication with her mother she had expressed that I must break up with her daughter because her daughter was never going to leave me. I didnt, because I was already engaged to her, cared for her, and I had a commitment (eventhough her mother did not know about the engagement). Her mother had found out we were dating through quasy intelligence and spying. Nevertheless, the objection stemmed directly from the fact that I am not Armenian and what would the Armenian community think of their daughter marrying a non-Armenian (eventhough a succesful, educated and decent non-Armenian who had respect and love for their daughter). They were very influenced on what the community thought of them. With regards to the question "Was there anything out of the ordinary about them that could explain why she hid you from them?" I believe the answer stemmed from 2 reasons. Firstly, I come from a very well respected, educated and financially well to do family. Her parents were not educated and were struggling in life financially and otherwse. There was a social divide between our families, but it really wasnt a concern to myself, nor my family because we had accepted her for who she was. Secondly, she didnt want to deal with the 'problems, and difficulties' her family was going to place on her when they did find out. Her objetive was to 'make a story' to gain her parents approval. Hence procrastination and delaying telling her parents the truth was of utmost importance to her. I didnt think that lying or making up stories was a good way to go, and encouraged her to tell the truth. Her plans to run away without telling her parents or other infantile means seemed inappropriate. Bottom line is that she knew her parents would never approve, and I guess me meeting them in her eyes was irrelevant since no matter who I was, because I wasnt Armenian they would never approve and it made no sense, eventhough I did suggest it many times. With regards to the question "And have you been in touch with her at all since you broke up? Would it be inappropriate to meet with her and ask her directly, whilst explaining your pain and frustration?" I have not been in touch with her since we broke up. I really have no respect for her. And as such, asking her, speaking with her etc., will never give the true answers with regard to her intentions or true heart. I always ask myself, why would someone have gone through everything, gotton engaged, made serious commitments, life plans, financial commitments and the whole nine yards clealrly knowing all along the 'trouble' she was getting herself into. If she had any respect for others (including me) she wouldnt have dragged me down the depths with her, even if it was an experiment, or identity crisis, especially considering my intentions and heart was genuine. Throughout the relationship there was no question as to her desire to have a life together and to get married (it was her idea in the first place!). It is by the nature of her parents that she was torn. Torn between the one man who cared for her and she cared for him, and her parents. She had expressed that life without her parents would maintain an ever long void that could not be replaced. It is unfortunate that parents would sacrifice their childrens happiness, for politics and 'community'. I really wonder how the Armenian community would react had they known what actually happened as compared to the knowledge of a marriage between a non-Armenian to an Armenian. I also wonder if her husband would ever know the truth, he may in fact be a very good decent Armenian boy expecting to marry the pivotal 'good Armenian girl' when in fact she is far from it. Thanks Naila for your queries. I know no one can explain, but if I could get one message out, is seeing that there is a lot of hurt if one were to get into a situation where obstacles such as family are involved and unresolved with. And second, looks are ever so decieving. Someone who may look 'like a good family girl' , there are no guarantees. My ex has that 'good Armenian girl look' that can get some well intentioned boy a lot more than he ever imagined!

Thank you all for understanding. I know and can see that there are good Armenians. I just wanted to say that eventhough we were engaged to be married, I dont understand why someone would go through all the motions if they knew there were factors in their family life (traditionalist non-accepting parents) that would make things difficult. Her having immersed herself in my family, friends, social circles, as my future wife all the while remaining silent to her parents and her community, all the while knowing that if push came to shove she would choose her parents over me (which is what happened). Our relationship had no intrinsic defects except her parents approval. I would never have done the same to her. Her pregnancy was in no way an obstacle for a couple who were planning to get married anyways. But no matter what I said, no matter what I did, I had no control over her terminating her pregnancy. And insult to injury because of absolutely no reason except her claim of inconvenience. But I am sure it was because she knew she wouldnt marry me, all the while making me beleive in our future. Anyways, a real bad story. I dont wish what happened to me, unto anyone else. Best to learn from my story. There were no winners in the game she was playing. Anyways, I apologize for the questions, no one will ever know the truth but her.

Armenian girls