Sassun

On the other hand, one could argue that Fateh's coup d'etat against the democratically elected Hamas government was successful, and their terrorist methods have been their route to success. I only hope that Hamas will not lose the momentum and would carry the fight also to West Bank (it's a myth that West Bank is Fateh stronghold, Hamas has broken into traditional Fateh strongholds, INCLUDING Nablus!!!) and wipe out these traitors once and for all. The quisling government has been formed, and a new PM slave to U.S and Israel has been named, under the cover of "he's independent". Just look at his career and you will see how independent he is. I hear the Israeli "right-wingers" have lots of praise for him. His name is Salam Fayyad. Abbas issued an illegal decree allowing the formation of new government without parliament approval. The parliament is elected by the people. Draw your own conclusions about the "legitimate representative of the Palestinian people", as the U.S calls Abbas, and moreover, this "partner for peace" as the Israelis call him. Partner for peace -- in Israel.

I donno man... Saudi Arabia DOES have the highest rate of export of terrorists... If you call that effective, well, whatever floats people's boats then.

Ramgavar, no they do not. Get your facts straight. In Iran, someone who steals is imprisoned, unless his circumstances satisfy 14 conditions, which must ALL be satisfied if the hand is to be cut off. In 99.99% of the cases, it is not. And no, that is not Islamic Law. That is Wahabi-Salafi law that is being applied in Saudi Arabia. In other words, the law of your beloved Bin Laden. As I said, birds of a feather flock together. In more than one sense, Bin Laden & the U.S administration (and a good chunk of the people) see eye to eye.

The weather? Hm, on second thought, I agree! After all, you would not see women in bikinis in the middle of winter. Yup, none of our business, really, it is not your country, but what is your country? Is America your country? Or is Armenia your country? Or Lebanon? How many countries do you have? Sure, it is not your country. That doesn't make it "good", though. And no, it doesn't give them any right to abuse human rights and cut off people's hands. But then again, the fact that you live in a country with the highest rate of executions in the world, I am sure your views towards Saudi Arabia would be based on the motto birds of a feather flock together.

Թո՛ղ համարձակին: Եթէ մտադրած են Պաքուին վրայէն ալ գիծ քաշել:

Excuse me? It seems you said it yourself, whatever the reason for male circumcision, it is no different and less horrific than female circumcision. Just that it has had widespread practice and so it is not frowned upon. And also, the fact that in Africa female circumcision is done without anaesthetic has painted a more horrible picture of female circumcision. Otherwise, the idea is the same, pretty much. Which shows the hypocrisy of all those who criticize female circ. yet support and cheer for male circumcision.

I disagree on the last sentence. I tend to place no distinction between the 4 countries you mentioned. Yes, Egypt & Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, but Saudi Arabia's slavery/puppetry is much more disgusting and consequential and arguably much more explicit than that of Egypt. In other words, I would not mind if 10 Egypts signed peace treaties with Israel as long as Saudi Arabia maintained a rejectionist position towards Israel in the same way as Iran does. The summit is funny, though, for a great many reasons. It reminds me of the joke about the Soviets («ընկերը կը շատախօսէ»)... in other words, all b.s. fancy talk, scratch the surface, and you will find nothing underneath it, and all that was said can be summarized in 2-3 word. Also, it is ironic that these people are actually holding a summit. First, on what basis do they claim to be representing their people at the summit? They are not even elected. They are self-styled leaders of their people. It is rather disgusting, that 300 million Arabs show no interest in toppling these idiots of leaders that have kept them poor, uneducated, and essentially slaves. But then, they say that it is a myth that revolutions are made on empty stomachs... Though to what extent that is true, is debatable.

I do not get what you mean by "integrists". Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic practice as I said (non-believers, animists, Christians, and Muslims in Africa all practice it), but rather, a cultural one, predominantly practiced in Africa. Let us call a spade a spade and quit sticking every single bad thing onto Islam. We get it that you people think Islam treats women as inferiors, is a bad/backwards religion, etc., but your (not just you but others too) attempts to portray every single bad thing as a product of Islam or as an Islamic practice, is laughable. What is next, you will claim Muslims caused Hurricane Katrina?

Nothing. Except that you'll have to drive on separate roads, are not allowed to go to certain places as a non-Muslim, if you get into a car accident and the other (Muslim) driver is killed, you will be put on death row, will be arrested and jailed if you are caught with a copy of the Bible, and of course cannot have a Church in the country... Not to mention, it has the highest export rate of sex tourism (i.e. prostitute-seeking men coming to Lebanon to satisfy their urges). Oh, wait, nothing's wrong with Saudi Arabia -- it does not belong to the axis of evil, which is headed by the anti-Christian and anti-Jewish Iran (where there are both Churches and Synagogues)! When we (me & my Armenian friends) used to go to the beach in Tabarja, both boys and girls together, Saudi "tourists" used to flock to the beach resorts wearing the galabiye, along with their wives clad in black from head to toe, including their face (only eyes visible). The men used to sit around and watch the bikini-wearing women. The girls with us used to feel really uncomfortable around this sight... but there was no way to avoid them since they were pretty much everywhere.

It has to do with myths, in other words, related to the mythmaking ("religion") of the so-called "chosen people". If they cut part of the penis for the sake of something that they have no scientific proof of, then they are knowingly cutting the part that allows a man to feel much more pleasure. I know that many peoples do not engage in this practice, and I know (from myself ) that Armenians don't either. And yet I do not see higher rates of infection among Armenians. So what is the reason, indeed? The reason is, according your logic of accusing Muslims of treating women differently in terms of genital mutilation (which btw is not an actual Muslim practice....!) is that these people treat men as inferior to women ? :) In fact, even if cutting part of the penis is meant to "prevent" infections, that is similar to the argument that women must cover up so that men would not feel aroused. In other words, you chop part of the penis instead of wearing a condom?

That is a myth as recent studies have shown.

Yes, great logic... So some countries practice genital mutilation, therefore Islam does not believe in sexual pleasure for women? But what about circumcision of men, or that is a convenient thing to ignore as that does not prove your point that Islam treats women unfairly? And what about the fact that circumcision is practiced not just in the Muslim world but also in the West?

looool... gone where? Oor es Nairi ?

btw , i think we are boring Nairi with our disappointing discussion hahaha.

Sip, women's bodies have historically been emphasized in terms of sexuality far more than the male body! For a good reason, too.

Of course !

By the way, I must add, that there is a long history of dislike betw. Ali (and thus the Shiites) and Aisha...

Congrats. They will turn it into a Salafi-Wahabi madrassah. :)

All the practicing Muslim men I know observe this and cover up... What isn't in the text? Everything I have said thus far comes from either the Qur'an or the Hadiths. It is not a progressive spin, I repeat. You might want to check out some of the Hadiths (I will dig out some for you) on this issue. Men are expected to control themselves just as much as women are. Of course men are attracted to women, but this attraction is far more controlled than it would have been if women went around half-naked... If we control ourselves there would still be the need for women to cover up, because men are human beings and can be tempted by their arousal and therefore there need to be limits on the way women dress. And second, because that is not the ONLY reason that women cover up....

First, that is untrue... I have learned both Arabic and English, aside from Armenian, as 2nd and third languages (Arabic is 2nd if not 3rd language in Armenian schools), and my command of Arabic is better than that of Arabs (I think in Arabic), and whenever I speak in English, I think in English. Yes, a translation can explain things, but my point is, is that translation accurate? In most cases, it is not. And anyway, there is much debate even among clerics about the context of some words in ARABIC, so when a translator translates that word into English, then he is automatically choosing one context over another... What is your point here? We all learn classical Arabic / written English / written Armenian. All of which are different than the spoken versions / slang / different dialects. Someone who has knowledge of classical Arabic can understand most of the Qur'an, with some exceptions. And for the exceptions (and explanations of contextual material), there are clerics, as well as debate sessions on explanation of Qur'an! It is a give-and-take, to arrive at a better understanding of the Qur'an!

Dave, the best solution is for the Shia in Saudi Arabia to revolt and establish independence there. They are sitting on top of all the oil wells, and the Sunnis are sitting on sand. :lol: That could solve a whole lot of problems in our region and stem the Saudi buy-up of property in Quebec.

Yeah no worries, there is ample supply of those... I always say that if the Lebanese were willing to actually do such types of work, there'd be no unemployment problem in Lebanon. Lebanon has become a remittance-exporting country!!! And people wonder what is up with unemployment? Seriously, what can an Egyptian and Sri Lankan do that a Lebanese can't?

It is not a progressive spin. It is the reason for it. First, it is not the "real reason". It is one of the reasons/aspects of why women are to wear the Hijab. Second, I did not single out female sexuality as bringing ills upon society, but rather, unrestrained sexuality in general, whether male or female, doing so. In that respect my discourse is not gendered! Third, the onus is on both the female and the male. The female is expected to cover up, and the male is expected to control himself. The two are complementary. What is there to 'like' about men's bodies? I mean, when a woman looks at a man, she looks at his body? His legs? And anyway, men are also supposed to cover up parts of their body including their chest, and cannot wear shorts up to a certain length. See above reply on men covering up.

Lebanese night life is disgusting. There are too many desperate women on the loose. But then again I do not know night life anywhere else so I don't know if this is the norm or the exception. Anyway I no longer go to pubs and clubs, of course. I am glad I don't. Anyway, yes, a lot of Muslims in Lebanon are 'liberal' and go clubbing, drink alcohol, etc... I am much more into the coffee shop scene though, with some tawleh/nardi , some Arabic music , and nice company. Much better than desperate girls not getting off your back. For me, the restaurant/nightlife/etc. scene is too artificial. I'd much rather stick to going to the beach for a walk and a falafel LOL.... more easy going... cheaper too. But we do have some of the best pakhlava... The beaches are somewhat dirty now (more American taxpayer money at work), and the roads are in miserable conditions (aside from the damage done by Israeli bombardments), littered with potholes some as deep as half a meter (good luck if you do not notice a new pothole while driving!). A favorite sport that the Lebanese practice is memorizing and recalling the locations of potholes on roads. Since there is a new pothole per day, the challenge is continuous and the memory game becomes all the more complicated. Then there are traffic lights in the middle of nowhere (and you are forced to stop for a good 5 minutes at a T-shaped intersection when there are no cars making a turn into the deserted street off the main road!!!!!!!!!!!!! loool after half a minute of stopping, people get annoyed, and look around to see if there are any cars, and if none, they just drive through the red light... ), aka deserted "downtown", which Hariri took over (some of the properties belonged to Armenians, who were offered a take-or-leave $10,000 in return for the entire plot of land or store they used to own before/during the civil war. Naturally, they refused to abandon their principles and take the money though their property was taken over!). Old Lebanon, the thing that many Lebanese are nostalgic for (over-exaggerated, especially having in mind that even though the country at the time was the "Paris of the Middle East", large sections of its people, mostly Muslims, continued to wallow in abject poverty and political under-representation) is gone. Lebanon as they knew it, is gone. It has become a Saudi investment project. The Saudis are buying the country, one plot at a time.

Yeah, true. But the zionists are also banking on the hope that Hamas would not have responded and would have allowed Fateh to keep on terrorizing it day in day out, as was indeed happening in Gaza, with Dahlan's goons throwing Hamas men off rooftops (and not Hamas men throwing Fateh men off rooftops as they claim !). Hamas has dealt with Fateh men in the aftermath of the takeover quite decently I must add, something that Hamas members in West Bank, despite the fact that they have not done anything THERE, are not afforded! If it were up to me, I would have totally eliminated all those traitors, no questions asked. Once a traitor always a traitor. If you have it in you to betray your people then what are the chances that you might undergo radical change in your personality/character? Slim. Or rather, none! Considering the scale of the takeover and the seriousness of Hamas's wrath against Fateh terrorist actions which sparked and necessitated the takeover (as Khaled Mesha'al said, it was out of NECESSITY ! -- I agree with him, FULLY!!) , the number of Fateh men who escaped to Egypt, not numbering more than a 100, is tiny. And anyway, the Bush discourse has undergone 180 degrees change. At first the rhetoric focused on "democracy", but soon it turned out that this rhetoric was better replaced by the rhetoric of "moderate Arab regimes/leaders" (by moderate they mean the Saudis who cut off hands and do not allow a Bible in the country, Mubarak who flexes his muscles against unarmed Muslim Brotherhood politicians, the treacherous Hashemite ruling family, the Salafi-funding Siniora-Hariri gang and their blood-selling "hawkish" politicians and civilian-torturer thugs, the puppet Iraqi leader, Nuri al Maliki, etc.). Now of course, I am talking about changes in discourse and not doctrine. There never was a point at which the doctrine was really about democracy. Anyway, there is a newly-found love affair between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Can you imagine, they even allowed an Israeli reporter in Saudi Arabia, home to Mekkah and Madina !!!!!!!!!!!! I mean, if that is not the ultimate surrender and treason to the Arab cause, then I do not know what is !!! This was during the so-called circus of a meeting called the "Arab summit". If you want to have a laugh and really pity the Arabs for the joke that they have become, all you have to do is watch them at their so-called "summit". Even funnier is that both the Palestinians and Lebanese, but the latter more so, were bickering about which side is the legitimate representative of their people at the summit. So they both sent two delegations... The thing is, one would have expected that Israel would have fully, or almost fully withdrawn from West Bank in order to put the final nail in Hamas's coffin on the popular level, but that is something that will not happen, and the Fateh who are now loyal to Israeli interests and the Israeli "cause" , whatever that is, do not realize that the Israelis continue to remain their enemies and are not doing this for the beauty of their eyes... Someone capable of betraying his people is a reliable tool, but never a reliable and equal ally. The Israelis are appreciative of Fateh's treacherous nature, but they do not view them highly. Of course, that is because they are Palestinians, but that is just one part of it.. Though I maintain that Arab traitors and puppets are the most reliable of traitors/puppets that history has known! This is the tragedy of the situation; it is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place, or trying to hold a stick both ends of which are sh*tty. Hamas is holding one end and Fateh the other, and they are pulling, and now the stick has given in to pressure and broken. Both of them are left with one sh*tty end of the stick. And the Saudis of all people have observed that the Palestinians have put the final nail in the coffin of the Palestinian cause. They missed out on the fact that they had already buried it. Phew.. that was a lot to write at 6 a.m.